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B&C label cell cams unethical

BTaylor said:
I would really like to kill a deer with a selfbow, river cane arrow and stone point. Just not sure I want to invest the time and energy to build that setup.
Click to expand...

Or we can go the opposite direction and see how high tech we can go to 'hunt' an animal. Like Zombieland, best/most creative zombie kills....I think Trump Jr is the current award holder by shooting a fenced sheep with a rifle equiped with laser and infrared red scope.

I have a coworker who is very tech savvy. He is able to bring up his home cameras feed from a website he created. He'll press a button that will project his voice on a speaker near the back door that call to his dog. The dog will come to the door. He then press a button that will remotely open the dog door so the dog can go out and pee. it is setup to do this automatically, he was just showing me how he set it up. Time for coding, wireless connection, a Rasberry Pi, a motor, and a scrap pieces from the junkyard. That's all it took.

I saw videos of some guy who attached a handgun to a drone. How long before someone setup a remote turret next to their cell cam?

There is no line except the one we draw and even then, lines in the sands are not permanent.
 
Remember when P&Y had percentage let off restrictions? Do they still have those? If so what are they? I remember back in the day it was no greater than 65% let off. Now it may be 75% which would rule out 99.9999% of most compounds on the market nowadays that go to 80% let off as the lowest setting unless you purchase a different draw mod. I'm seeing more and more bowhunters now going to 75 and 80lb peak weight systems now........ with 80% that's relatively easy to do for most average strength men. I'd like to see if they would still do it if we had let off like in the old days of only 50%. Is 90% Letoff of 80lbs or an 18lb holding weight at full draw as "fair chase" as 50lbs at 50% let off??
 
woodsdog2 said:
Remember when P&Y had percentage let off restrictions? Do they still have those? If so what are they? I remember back in the day it was no greater than 65% let off. Now it may be 75% which would rule out 99.9999% of most compounds on the market nowadays that go to 80% let off as the lowest setting unless you purchase a different draw mod. I'm seeing more and more bowhunters now going to 75 and 80lb peak weight systems now........ with 80% that's relatively easy to do for most average strength men. I'd like to see if they would still do it if we had let off like in the old days of only 50%. Is 90% Letoff of 80lbs or an 18lb holding weight at full draw as "fair chase" as 50lbs at 50% let off??
Click to expand...

In short:
- first question, no.
- last question, yes.

Equipment Definitions

pope-young.org pope-young.org

Let-Off for Compound Bows: * There is no maximum let-off for a hand-held, hand-released bow. We do gather statistics on this data, therefore we state how let-off should be measured.

Fair Chase | Pope and Young Club | Preserve, Promote, and Protect Bowhunting

The fair chase philosophy reaches to the very foundations of the hunting spirit; it should be a dominant factor in the personal hunting ethic of every responsible individual; it is key to bowhunting’s future with deep roots in America’s hunting heritage.
pope-young.org pope-young.org

The term “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:
  • Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice.
  • From any power vehicle or power boat.
  • By “jacklighting” or shining at night.
  • By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons.
  • While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures.
  • By the use of any power vehicle or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground.
  • By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached with the exception of lighted nocks and recording devices that cast no light towards the target and do not aid in rangefinding, sighting or shooting the bow.
  • Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.
The fair chase concept does, however, extend beyond the hunt itself; it is an attitude and a way of life based in a deep-seated respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for other individuals who share the bounty of this vast continent’s natural resources.
 
Gator said:
I'm aware of the change but it wasn't like that for a long time. I actually looked it up after I posted wondering if they ever changed their stance.
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Just saw it and thought I'd give you a heads up. I don't use lighted nocks or record books so the status of lighted nocks for entering records wasn't within my purview.

Shows there can be some flexibility and adjustment in both directions on book club policies. It's ok, positive in fact, to see thats the case, imo.
 
Plebe said:
Just saw it and thought I'd give you a heads up. I don't use lighted nocks or record books so the status of lighted nocks for entering records wasn't within my purview.

Shows there can be some flexibility and adjustment in both directions on book club policies. It's ok, positive in fact, to see thats the case, imo.
Click to expand...
I agree that it's good to see them adjust. Lighted nocks are very useful for filming (arrows are hard to see on video without them) but also useful for better seeing real time where the arrow hits versus where you think it hit.
 
The cell camera thing is a tricky one...I could definitely see how cell cameras could be abused, but I think the barrier to entry on that is the price of cell cams. And I'm sure there are creative ways to abuse them, but I think someone would need many, many cell cameras to successfully abuse their capabilities...like to the point where it would be nearly the same as using a radio collar/gps tracker on the deer.

Against cell cams:
Who knows what the cell camera technology will turn into, as I feel that we are only in the early days of this capability.

Maybe for cell cams:
At the same time, though, I firmly believe that if we want hunting to stick around, we have to continue to make it accessible and relevant to society. Not too long ago, crossbows were illegal during archery season in many states unless the hunter was handicapped. That has obviously changed big time. Whether that is a good thing or not is a matter of opinion, but I think the fact that precedent has changed has made the barrier to hunting smaller is a good thing. If folks are more excited about hunting, and it is easier to do because of cell cams, I think that should be a serious consideration before they are outright banned by state entities (so long as one person's use of cell cams isn't infringing on someone else's ability to enjoy the same public lands).

I see two sides here, and it is definitely an interesting debate!
 
cville_bowhunter said:
The cell camera thing is a tricky one...I could definitely see how cell cameras could be abused, but I think the barrier to entry on that is the price of cell cams. And I'm sure there are creative ways to abuse them, but I think someone would need many, many cell cameras to successfully abuse their capabilities...like to the point where it would be nearly the same as using a radio collar/gps tracker on the deer.

Against cell cams:
Who knows what the cell camera technology will turn into, as I feel that we are only in the early days of this capability.

Maybe for cell cams:
At the same time, though, I firmly believe that if we want hunting to stick around, we have to continue to make it accessible and relevant to society. Not too long ago, crossbows were illegal during archery season in many states unless the hunter was handicapped. That has obviously changed big time. Whether that is a good thing or not is a matter of opinion, but I think the fact that precedent has changed has made the barrier to hunting smaller is a good thing. If folks are more excited about hunting, and it is easier to do because of cell cams, I think that should be a serious consideration before they are outright banned by state entities (so long as one person's use of cell cams isn't infringing on someone else's ability to enjoy the same public lands).

I see two sides here, and it is definitely an interesting debate!
Click to expand...
I am going to use your crossbow example for a counter argument to ponder. Lowering the barrier to entry by allowing people without physical impairment to use crossbows during archery season is an easy button. In the majority of cases do you feel people looking for an easy button are really going to be a net good for the group. Are they going to be the folks spend the time to real know and tune their equipment, only take high percentage shots and otherwise represent the characteristics you think are important for hunters? The same or very similar argument could be made for cell cams, trail cams, long range rifle hunters, scoped inline ML's, etc. As is being discussed in the other thread about getting into hunting cheap, the barrier to entry is really low as is. Maybe the more important focus should be on the resource and what's best there. In all honesty I could not care less what anyone hunts with. I will support your right to hunt with any legal means but if you claim to be bowhunting with a crossbow or brag about a spot and stalk kill from 6 or 800 yards, you catchin the side eye from me. Just sayin. ;)
 
I see the point on the easy button thing. I've been thinking about my perception on crossbows. Since they were legalized here in Kansas I have been very against them and I'm realizing it's mostly because of the people I know that use them and how they use them. I haven't had any of the same feelings towards people using a crossbow in this forum. With what I've seen locally I would love it if crossbows would be made illegal

Makes me wonder if some could have the same perspective on call cameras
 
HuumanCreed said:
Or we can go the opposite direction and see how high tech we can go to 'hunt' an animal. Like Zombieland, best/most creative zombie kills....I think Trump Jr is the current award holder by shooting a fenced sheep with a rifle equiped with laser and infrared red scope.

I have a coworker who is very tech savvy. He is able to bring up his home cameras feed from a website he created. He'll press a button that will project his voice on a speaker near the back door that call to his dog. The dog will come to the door. He then press a button that will remotely open the dog door so the dog can go out and pee. it is setup to do this automatically, he was just showing me how he set it up. Time for coding, wireless connection, a Rasberry Pi, a motor, and a scrap pieces from the junkyard. That's all it took.

I saw videos of some guy who attached a handgun to a drone. How long before someone setup a remote turret next to their cell cam?

There is no line except the one we draw and even then, lines in the sands are not permanent.
Click to expand...

www.outdoorlife.com

Remote-Control Hunting

www.outdoorlife.com www.outdoorlife.com
 
Arrowsquirrel said:
I see the point on the easy button thing. I've been thinking about my perception on crossbows. Since they were legalized here in Kansas I have been very against them and I'm realizing it's mostly because of the people I know that use them and how they use them. I haven't had any of the same feelings towards people using a crossbow in this forum. With what I've seen locally I would love it if crossbows would be made illegal

Makes me wonder if some could have the same perspective on call cameras
Click to expand...

Don't own or hunt with a crossbow. But I'm glad my aging father can get out during reasonably mild weather because there is a crossbow season for him to hunt before it really gets cold. He can't really draw a bow due to injury from being struck by an intoxicated driver, but I know others who have just aged out of regular archery and it's a good deal for them too.

There's a 17" limb to limb restriction in my state, so the 500+ ft/s 100yd x-bow stuff isn't legally a thing here...legally.

But I still think trail cams is an entirely different conversation.
 
Plebe said:
Don't own or hunt with a crossbow. But I'm glad my aging father can get out during reasonably mild weather because there is a crossbow season for him to hunt before it really gets cold. He can't really draw a bow due to injury from being struck by an intoxicated driver, but I know others who have just aged out of regular archery and it's a good deal for them too.

There's a 17" limb to limb restriction in my state, so the 500+ ft/s 100yd x-bow stuff isn't legally a thing here...legally.

But I still think trail cams is an entirely different conversation.
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying about crossbows100%. I guess my point was I have been exposed to crossbow hunters with less than ideal hunting standards/morals. If I had been exposed to people abusing cell cameras I might think they should be outlawed to.
 
Arrowsquirrel said:
I understand what you are saying about crossbows100%. I guess my point was I have been exposed to crossbow hunters with less than ideal hunting standards/morals. If I had been exposed to people abusing cell cameras I might think they should be outlawed to.
Click to expand...
Seems there is more of an issue with cams in some western states than there really is in the majority of whitetail country but the technology issue is starting to be a real thing. Esp with cell cams, drones, etc. It will be interesting to see how things progress in defining fair chase and the distinctions between public and private ground.
 
I had a guy (and his crossbow) consistently park at bow camp a couple of years ago and walk in hunting. When I finally had a chance to talk to him I told him I have a buddy that generally rifle hunts up the area he was heading to just so he'd know someone was planning on being there during rifle season. His somewhat stammering/sheepish reply of "I don't gun hunt much." gave me the exact same impression. :tearsofjoy:

Coincidently it was about that time I started putting the couple of "old school" trail cams I have pointed at my camp.
 
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