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Falling with slack in your line

Holy actual crap Batman.

The way some of you Nancies are going on about it, Im surprised you leave the house. As soon as you get vertical, life becomes a series of risks, and we ALL, in some form or another, subscribe to the theory of risk management (exhibit A your honor - seatbelts.)

So what if it is being used out of spec. What is it going to hurt? Seems to me it could help, even if it is only to the nth degree.

As far as the "somebody is going to get killed" statement, I got $10 that says I bet someone does get killed today, watch any local news anywhere, the probability is high. It's pretty much a guarantee that it will also happen to each and every one of us at some point.
 
huntin_addict said:
Holy actual crap Batman.

The way some of you Nancies are going on about it, Im surprised you leave the house. As soon as you get vertical, life becomes a series of risks, and we ALL, in some form or another, subscribe to the theory of risk management (exhibit A your honor - seatbelts.)

So what if it is being used out of spec. What is it going to hurt? Seems to me it could help, even if it is only to the nth degree.

As far as the "somebody is going to get killed" statement, I got $10 that says I bet someone does get killed today, watch any local news anywhere, the probability is high. It's pretty much a guarantee that it will also happen to each and every one of us at some point.
Click to expand...
I don’t know man. I get vertical pretty regularly at work and I always anticipate going home to my family in the same condition as I came. When I hunt, it’s at elevated position and I always plan on going home in the same condition as I went to the woods in (hopefully with the extra weight of carcass lol…. The seatbelt defense is a good example. It’s something you can do to maximize your safety. Other things you can do is drive at acceptable speeds, leave distance between your self and the car in front of you and not run red lights. I wouldn’t introduce my seat belt as the thing that can make running red lights safer. I think that’s the point he was making. Is that new saddle hunters may take that video as a screamer being the green light to introduce slack into your system. You can see in the video he gets lots of views, he has success (nice trophy racks on the wall) and he’s attached to a vendor. People see that as “expertise” even if it might not be in this case. I don’t think anyone meant to jump his case or be cruel. Just more concerned the average hunter that doesn’t practice often and doesn’t know any better, may take this as gospel. Nothing more, nothing less
 
huntin_addict said:
Holy actual crap Batman.

The way some of you Nancies are going on about it, Im surprised you leave the house. As soon as you get vertical, life becomes a series of risks, and we ALL, in some form or another, subscribe to the theory of risk management (exhibit A your honor - seatbelts.)

So what if it is being used out of spec. What is it going to hurt? Seems to me it could help, even if it is only to the nth degree.

As far as the "somebody is going to get killed" statement, I got $10 that says I bet someone does get killed today, watch any local news anywhere, the probability is high. It's pretty much a guarantee that it will also happen to each and every one of us at some point.
Click to expand...
Your missing the point of what the objection is. He never said it was wrong or right. He is stating that someone whom has not been trained by anyone in the proper use of those certain pieces of equipment is telling you to use it. Saddle hunting is not what they were made for nor been tested for. The objection is a video that makes people think it will keep them safer because someone who saddle hunts and makes videos says so. No one knows for sure if it will or not, unless you have lots of money and time to set up test to verify it one way or another. @Fl Canopy Stalker contacted suppliers of those devices and they did not recommend they be used that way.
If anyone wants to use it, feel free. Maybe it will save your life. Maybe it won't. I don't have horse in the race either way. No one makes you leave the ground or forces you to hunt. But making a video to get people to think it will save your life in a fall with out any real testing should very well be noted up front. This does not apply to just the screamers. Lots of guys are doing different things with stuff not "in spec" or "recommended for use by the manufacturer". Let alone using products that are aged, weathered, or compromised.
Everyone can do as they please. I say this with the most respect to everyone. But the end user needs to be able to weigh the benefits and down sides of these devices. If videos are made that only highlight the positive advantages, everyone will forget about the negative. I assume most are here to learn and ask questions. If every idea never has any objection or question raised against it, it will never get discussed. We should be able to discuss it in an adult manor.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
I don’t know man. I get vertical pretty regularly at work and I always anticipate going home to my family in the same condition as I came. When I hunt, it’s at elevated position and I always plan on going home in the same condition as I went to the woods in (hopefully with the extra weight of carcass lol…. The seatbelt defense is a good example. It’s something you can do to maximize your safety. Other things you can do is drive at acceptable speeds, leave distance between your self and the car in front of you and not run red lights. I wouldn’t introduce my seat belt as the thing that can make running red lights safer. I think that’s the point he was making. Is that new saddle hunters may take that video as a screamer being the green light to introduce slack into your system. You can see in the video he gets lots of views, he has success (nice trophy racks on the wall) and he’s attached to a vendor. People see that as “expertise” even if it might not be in this case. I don’t think anyone meant to jump his case or be cruel. Just more concerned the average hunter that doesn’t practice often and doesn’t know any better, may take this as gospel. Nothing more, nothing less
Click to expand...
Yep, we all plan on waking up and going home to families safe and sound, except one day, that won't happen.

If you don't like it, don't do it. If you feel comfortable with the risk level, have at it, it's your life AND you aren't jeopardizing mine.

As far as the "average hunter that doesn't practice often and doesn't know any better", well, when do we quit coddling people for their sometimes poor decision making skills?

You know what the best fall protection device in the world is? The ground, as in don't leave it. From there, it all becomes risk assessment / acceptance / mitigation. If someone feels safer, better or more comfortable with a screamer, why are any of you breaking stones about it? Everything we do as saddlehunters can be deemed unsafe or out of spec.

Enjoy your day. I'm gonna paddle my kayak to a remote little spot I want to check out (skipping the life jacket because I personally accept the risk) then maybe go climb a tree with my one stick (again, personal responsibility and risk acceptance). If something happens to me, good luck to all of you on the upcoming season.
 
MattMan81 said:
Your missing the point of what the objection is. He never said it was wrong or right. He is stating that someone whom has not been trained by anyone in the proper use of those certain pieces of equipment is telling you to use it. Saddle hunting is not what they were made for nor been tested for. The objection is a video that makes people think it will keep them safer because someone who saddle hunts and makes videos says so. No one knows for sure if it will or not, unless you have lots of money and time to set up test to verify it one way or another. @Fl Canopy Stalker contacted suppliers of those devices and they did not recommend they be used that way.
If anyone wants to use it, feel free. Maybe it will save your life. Maybe it won't. I don't have horse in the race either way. No one makes you leave the ground or forces you to hunt. But making a video to get people to think it will save your life in a fall with out any real testing should very well be noted up front. This does not apply to just the screamers. Lots of guys are doing different things with stuff not "in spec" or "recommended for use by the manufacturer". Let alone using products that are aged, weathered, or compromised.
Everyone can do as they please. I say this with the most respect to everyone. But the end user needs to be able to weigh the benefits and down sides of these devices. If videos are made that only highlight the positive advantages, everyone will forget about the negative. I assume most are here to learn and ask questions. If every idea never has any objection or question raised against it, it will never get discussed. We should be able to discuss it in an adult manor.
Click to expand...

Oh come on man….

Half the saddle manufactures recommend you don’t leave the ground with their saddle…lol
 
MattMan81 said:
Your missing the point of what the objection is. He never said it was wrong or right. He is stating that someone whom has not been trained by anyone in the proper use of those certain pieces of equipment is telling you to use it. Saddle hunting is not what they were made for nor been tested for. The objection is a video that makes people think it will keep them safer because someone who saddle hunts and makes videos says so. No one knows for sure if it will or not, unless you have lots of money and time to set up test to verify it one way or another. @Fl Canopy Stalker contacted suppliers of those devices and they did not recommend they be used that way.
If anyone wants to use it, feel free. Maybe it will save your life. Maybe it won't. I don't have horse in the race either way. No one makes you leave the ground or forces you to hunt. But making a video to get people to think it will save your life in a fall with out any real testing should very well be noted up front. This does not apply to just the screamers. Lots of guys are doing different things with stuff not "in spec" or "recommended for use by the manufacturer". Let alone using products that are aged, weathered, or compromised.
Everyone can do as they please. I say this with the most respect to everyone. But the end user needs to be able to weigh the benefits and down sides of these devices. If videos are made that only highlight the positive advantages, everyone will forget about the negative. I assume most are here to learn and ask questions. If every idea never has any objection or question raised against it, it will never get discussed. We should be able to discuss it in an adult manor.
Click to expand...
Not missing any point, however, some of you really need to reassess the gear you use because it would almost all be considered out of spec, yet there are a crap ton of videos showing you how to use it. How many Ropeman 1 videos can we find? Let's all get our pitch forks and torches and let them have it too.
 
enkriss said:
Oh come on man….

Half the saddle manufactures recommend you don’t leave the ground with their saddle…lol
Click to expand...

that is exactly why it’s comical to entertain the use of a screamer. If one contacted Yates about this they would have basically no clue what you’re talking about.
 
I’m seeing a lot more one sticking videos pop up on YouTube and after watching some, I’m starting to think one sticking might just be a dumb idea. Last night I weighed my 3 stick set up vs my one stick set up and they were around 1-1.3 pounds in difference. The extra weight might be worth it…?
 
MattMan81 said:
Your missing the point of what the objection is. He never said it was wrong or right. He is stating that someone whom has not been trained by anyone in the proper use of those certain pieces of equipment is telling you to use it. Saddle hunting is not what they were made for nor been tested for. The objection is a video that makes people think it will keep them safer because someone who saddle hunts and makes videos says so. No one knows for sure if it will or not, unless you have lots of money and time to set up test to verify it one way or another. @Fl Canopy Stalker contacted suppliers of those devices and they did not recommend they be used that way.
If anyone wants to use it, feel free. Maybe it will save your life. Maybe it won't. I don't have horse in the race either way. No one makes you leave the ground or forces you to hunt. But making a video to get people to think it will save your life in a fall with out any real testing should very well be noted up front. This does not apply to just the screamers. Lots of guys are doing different things with stuff not "in spec" or "recommended for use by the manufacturer". Let alone using products that are aged, weathered, or compromised.
Everyone can do as they please. I say this with the most respect to everyone. But the end user needs to be able to weigh the benefits and down sides of these devices. If videos are made that only highlight the positive advantages, everyone will forget about the negative. I assume most are here to learn and ask questions. If every idea never has any objection or question raised against it, it will never get discussed. We should be able to discuss it in an adult manor.
Click to expand...
I wish some of you would watch the video.....point blank....I say is this something you should use in your system. I don't know, but it makes me feel better. It's like a witch hunt tho. Let's pick out parts of what was said and make it fit our agenda.
 
Zacrowsl said:
I wish some of you would watch the video.....point blank....I say is this something you should use in your system. I don't know, but it makes me feel better. It's like a witch hunt tho. Let's pick out parts of what was said and make it fit our agenda.
Click to expand...

I think your video just touched on a very contentious topic where saddle hunting gear intersects with rock climbing gear. It is unchartered territory and there is basically no evidence to show that this particular piece of gear will help in this particular situation.

Its also eliciting some pretty emotional responses because the consequences are so heavy.

I am still glad it was posted to get people to even start considering what they are doing if they haven’t.

I am curious to hear the specific reasons you have that make the screamer make you feel better?
 
Zacrowsl said:
I wish some of you would watch the video.....point blank....I say is this something you should use in your system. I don't know, but it makes me feel better. It's like a witch hunt tho. Let's pick out parts of what was said and make it fit our agenda.
Click to expand...
I understand what your trying to do. I really don't want to come across as a witch hunter. I like most of what you said. But at your first move on a one stick method. If you fall before you move your tether up, how much will that screamer open? If it opens to 5', add the fall length in the tether, add your feet to tie in point, and add any slippage you might get in the tree. There is a chance you still bounce off the ground.
I just wish you would have worded some things different.
I don't really have an agenda other than hopefully make people think about what they are doing. I trust the guy who questions what he is doing, and what other people are doing way more than the guy who just does what other people tell him to do. It means he is thinking about what he is doing and why. He has weighed the risk for the reward. I haven't ruled out running one in my system yet. My thoughts are still a screamer or lanyard like that is not meant to hold weigh like we are doing. Will that effect the performance. I don't know.
 
Zacrowsl said:
It's like a witch hunt tho.
Click to expand...
Hey bro. I thought about it a lot last night and I want to say publicly that I'm sorry for doing my part to fan the flame on this topic. I didn't mean for you to feel like you're being personally attacked. I apologize sir.

Truth be told, I'm only a quasi-safe dude and I've put out videos where I do some pretty sketchy stuff. In those videos I surely didn't say "the safety aspect of this is untested and unknown" enough times (or even at all). As such, I'm going to be taking down all those videos because they may promote confidence in dicey methods/systems.
 
I'm new to saddle hunting and one stick climbing as well as rappelling. So let me give some prospective from what I got out of this video.
@kyler1945 , his main concern is that newbies like myself will see this as an ultimate way to be safe. People flood forums like this and youtube with incorrect information all the time which cause others to be in danger. I have used products like screamers in the past, not for hunting but on the job. When I was doing metal roofing we used soft stops which is basically the same thing. Its meant to reduce the force of shock thats applied to an anchor point.. If you think about it, a fall is still a fall. You're still going to have the sudden stop either way. Injury is still going to happen. Now when I first saw saddle hunting I was amazed. It looked so much more comfortable and one sticking seemed so much more efficient for my needs. rappelling also looked much easier to get down. Now I could have just followed every ones lead and jumped in a tree. However I chose to do my own research. I started with a fleece saddle and a rock climbing harness. I have since upgraded to an actual saddle. Now, I have seen the rope man and Madrock Safe guard being used. I understood that these are used out of the manufacture's scope of use. I understood that first of all and I dont feel comfortable using them. So I chose the use simple prusiks instead as my capture device. I use a figure 8 for rappel. But, what I understood more than anything was it was up to me to be safe. That meant keeping as much slack out of my tether as possible when climbing. Thats why I constantly move my tether up as I climb. doing this this way means I only have about 4 or 5 inches of slack in my tether. I also us my lineman's rope when Im setting into my saddle at hunting height. This way I can control how much slack I have in my system at all times and Im connected to the tree at 2 points. Items can and will fail at some point. Thats why I dont rely on mechanical devices. I would much rather rely on ropes that are dressed correctly. But in the end it is the sole responsibility of the person choosing to do something to make the right choice. Just as much as the person on a video endorsing a product. In my opinion there should be more responsibility on the shoulders of the person making the video because in reality that person is an influencer. So for all those that are new to saddle hunting. Please, be careful, be smart about how you climb, do your research, move slowly and pay attention to the details. If something raises more questions than answers, research, research, research. Before you try.
 
I wasnt gonna reply cause theres a whole lot of stupid on this post.. Id expect no less from know it all first time I used my saddle community.. this is right from the manufacturer.. Key words...ANY CLIMBING SYSTEM...

"Yates Screamers will provide added protection in climbing and rescue situations. Screamers not only absorb energy directly because of the stitch ripping effect, they also allow your rope to absorb more energy from the fall by increasing the time interval of the fall. Screamers can reduce shock loading in any rescue system. The standard Screamer can effectively reduce peak loads by 3-4kN in any climbing or rescue system. Yates' original Screamers were first developed over ten years ago, designed to be used on less-than-ideal climbing protection such as small nuts, old 1/4" bolts, snow anchors, ice screws, or marginal protection. The most effective activation for a standard Screamer is GT 2kN (550lbf.) for climbing-related situations. Screamers are designed for one-time use."

I also want to add... every tree stand harness has a shock absorbing system built into its tether. Half of you guys commenting prolly cant even tell me how much ft lbs of force is generated by a 200 body in a 6ft fall but I'll give you a hint...its enough to break bones in your body... A saddle is not a fall arresting system when your tether isnt loaded or you have more than a few inches of slack in it... Dont belive me? Go stand on your platform .... put a couple feet of slack in your tether and jump.. let me know how that works out for you...
 
_Dario said:
I think your video just touched on a very contentious topic where saddle hunting gear intersects with rock climbing gear. It is unchartered territory and there is basically no evidence to show that this particular piece of gear will help in this particular situation.

Its also eliciting some pretty emotional responses because the consequences are so heavy.

I am still glad it was posted to get people to even start considering what they are doing if they haven’t.

I am curious to hear the specific reasons you have that make the screamer make you feel better?
Click to expand...
If a screamer reduced the shock load on a anchor by 3-4kn and works very similar, if not identical, to some shock absorbing lanyards, then it gives me every reason to believe that it would reduce shock to a climber as well. It sure won't hurt. Hopefully it'd help if something bad happened. It doesn't mean I'm going to promote bad into my system
 
enkriss said:
Oh come on man….

Half the saddle manufactures recommend you don’t leave the ground with their saddle…lol
Click to expand...
That’s due to lack of means for testing and lack of liability insurance. Both of which should be required to sell saddles in my opinion. Those warnings and recommendations are to cover their butt if you fall using their products… Lol I do realize many of the devices people use are not “as intended”. I don’t tell people do not use them. I, personally just want people to know both the positives and negatives to using them. I don’t care about “coddling” anyone as someone said in an above post. Not everyone does the research or has all information available to them. They rely on videos or stuff they read. We all say don’t drink and drive your car right? It’s on bill boards, advertisement commercials, everywhere. That’s not coddling. It’s just making sure that the general public realizes there is an elevated risk if you operate your automobile when you’re intoxicated. Driving a car is inherently dangerous, why don’t car manufacturers or alcohol manufacturers just rely on that operate at your own risk mentality that is being applied to saddle hunting?
 
Zacrowsl said:
If a screamer reduced the shock load on a anchor by 3-4kn and works very similar, if not identical, to some shock absorbing lanyards, then it gives me every reason to believe that it would reduce shock to a climber as well. It sure won't hurt. Hopefully it'd help if something bad happened. It doesn't mean I'm going to promote bad into my system
Click to expand...

I see. Well if you want to bounce some ideas around here about that first scenario I have a few thoughts. I am sure you have a bad taste in your mouth already though.

In a rock climbing situation, those climbers are using large lengths of rope with high dynamic elongation properties (35+%). That is a pretty substantial variable here. Additionally they have a belayer on the ground reducing the
KN of force to the climber as well.

So there is basically no precedent or evidence to show that a screamer on your very short static rope tether connected to your saddle would reduce risk of injury or death. This is really not intuitive though and it would seem like it would help.

Could it hurt? Directly maybe not, but it may cause a user to have a false sense of confidence that could lead to injury or death by taking chances they wouldn’t otherwise have taken.
 
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