Falling with slack in your line

[Fairchild#17]

 

[Vtbow]

Ok...im not going to taken sides on this one.

I like that @Zacrowsl is brining up the potential issues of a fall with slack in the system. A lotnof people don't realize how little it takes to cause serious issues.

I sorry @Zacrowsl but I don't like how the information was presented on a widely viewed social media channel when it appears you haven't completely done your duedilligence on research and application of the available energy absorbing devices available. As many have stated Yates screamers are not designed or tested for this application. I belive this is @kyler1945 and @Fl Canopy Stalker point. That representing something for an application it is not designed for is misleading especially if you state something to the effect of "it makes me feel better".

Now, the good news is, there are energy absorbers, aka "zorbers" which have been being used in conjunction with seat harnesses and static climbing lanyards for a long time and are approved and tested for this use in the challenge course industry. Here is just one example:

Elk River 12" Zorber Pack

ELK RIVER ZORBER EYE & EYE

www.ropescoursewarehouse.com

It is probably bulkier than most would like, but it is designed for it and it "This reduction of arresting force may reduce the possibility of injury during a fall".

Personally I just believe people who have mass following have the social responsibility to their audience to only present information that is 100% tested and vetted, and not suggestz or even present ideas or techniques that are out of spec or have no solid data behind them. And not just have the disclaimer if "just cause I do it doesn't make it ok". If you have to say that, you shouldn't be showing thousands of other people it.

This is all I will say on this topic. Everyone please do their own research. I think we all need to remember even on this topic, it appears everyone is just trying to help people manage risk and safety, whether we agree on how or what was presented or not. We also all need to do a better job giving and taking feedback so we can work hrough these things together to the same end goal.

 

[Fairchild#17]

50cm dynaclip is about 19". Run it through the bridge carabiner and attach both loops to the tether. This would shorten the perceived length to sub 10" and wold be more manageable to climb with.
Just a thought here to reduce shock.

 

[Zacrowsl]

I see. Well if you want to bounce some ideas around here about that first scenario I have a few thoughts. I am sure you have a bad taste in your mouth already though.

In a rock climbing situation, those climbers are using large lengths of rope with high dynamic elongation properties (35+%). That is a pretty substantial variable here. Additionally they have a belayer on the ground reducing the
KN of force to the climber as well.

So there is basically no precedent or evidence to show that a screamer on your very short static rope tether connected to your saddle would reduce risk of injury or death. This is really not intuitive though and it would seem like it would help.

Could it hurt? Directly maybe not, but it may cause a user to have a false sense of confidence that could lead to injury or death by taking chances they wouldn’t otherwise have taken.

If someone has a false sense of security from any shock absorbing device then they Dont need to be climbing. Second the reduction on the site listed is the reduction of load to the anchor. So 3-4kn reduction to the anchor. Remove the anchor and dynamic line and there has to be some shock absorbing taking place on the climber. It's impossible for it not to. And you're right i've got a bad taste in my mouth due to some people who are just complete ass's about it. But I'm open to listen. But the whole rule that the manufacturer doesn't recommend it argument is old. And unwarranted. We use out of spec stuff a lot. But I appreciate you being civil and willing to talk and not sit on a thrown full of zero knowledge and throw stones bec it's not been tested in such a manner.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Ok...im not going to taken sides on this one.

I like that @Zacrowsl is brining up the potential issues of a fall with slack in the system. A lotnof people don't realize how little it takes to cause serious issues.

I sorry @Zacrowsl but I don't like how the information was presented on a widely viewed social media channel when it appears you haven't completely done your duedilligence on research and application of the available energy absorbing devices available. As many have stated Yates screamers are not designed or tested for this application. I belive this is @kyler1945 and @Fl Canopy Stalker point. That representing something for an application it is not designed for is misleading especially if you state something to the effect of "it makes me feel better".

Now, the good news is, there are energy absorbers, aka "zorbers" which have been being used in conjunction with seat harnesses and static climbing lanyards for a long time and are approved and tested for this use in the challenge course industry. Here is just one example:

Elk River 12" Zorber Pack

ELK RIVER ZORBER EYE & EYE

www.ropescoursewarehouse.com

It is probably bulkier than most would like, but it is designed for it and it "This reduction of arresting force may reduce the possibility of injury during a fall".

Personally I just believe people who have mass following have the social responsibility to their audience to only present information that is 100% tested and vetted, and not suggestz or even present ideas or techniques that are out of spec or have no solid data behind them. And not just have the disclaimer if "just cause I do it doesn't make it ok". If you have to say that, you shouldn't be showing thousands of other people it.

This is all I will say on this topic. Everyone please do their own research. I think we all need to remember even on this topic, it appears everyone is just trying to help people manage risk and safety, whether we agree on how or what was presented or not. We also all need to do a better job giving and taking feedback so we can work hrough these things together to the same end goal.

I saw these and they’re activated at 450 lbs, can they also be utilized for continuing load bearing? If we used this on our tether while one sticking, could we continue to use this while weighted at height or like a screamer, could a small dynamic event still cause it to activate? I am asking because I am not as familiar with how this works? I know that in a work positioning harness, the goal per OSHA/ANSI is to keep forces below 900 lbs (which is why it is recommended that you cannot create a fall of 18” or greater) thank you again for this post.

 

[MattMan81]

@Zacrowsl I'm just having conversation. I can't be mad at anyone I never meet or personally done nothing to me. This is just a forum for conversation. (I think). I would still have a beer with yah any day. Or anyone on here for that fact. Even if that anyone has called me a name on here.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

If someone has a false sense of security from any shock absorbing device then they Dont need to be climbing. Second the reduction on the site listed is the reduction of load to the anchor. So 3-4kn reduction to the anchor. Remove the anchor and dynamic line and there has to be some shock absorbing taking place on the climber. It's impossible for it not to. And you're right i've got a bad taste in my mouth due to some people who are just complete ass's about it. But I'm open to listen. But the whole rule that the manufacturer doesn't recommend it argument is old. And unwarranted. We use out of spec stuff a lot. But I appreciate you being civil and willing to talk and not sit on a thrown full of zero knowledge and throw stones bec it's not been tested in such a manner.

Thank you as well for the civil response. I enjoyed the video even if I do not necessarily agree with the content. Perhaps we can get some testing done utilizing some of these systems and come up with a way to make all of us safer if one sticking is our chosen method to ascend. As far as not climbing if that system is a false sense of security… I hate to say this but rock climbers have a well established climbing and fall system with long dynamic ropes and tandem working systems. I know that doesn’t apply for us, but I think you should feel secure in your system or else you find a different way up the tree. Perhaps for some ropes or the JBR system are the better way. It’s not for everyone and I don’t recommend or stay not to use that system. I question it’s redundancy. But not it’s safety. With a screamer, my fear is that as it tears away it’s creating additional dynamic events and length that wasn’t originally in your system. To that effect it could hurt as much as it helps. Without testing, I won’t know. Again sorry if any of this seemed like a witch hunt. That will never be my goal.

 

[Zacrowsl]

@Zacrowsl I'm just having conversation. I can't be mad at anyone I never meet or personally done nothing to me. This is just a forum for conversation. (I think). I would still have a beer with yah any day. Or anyone on here for that fact. Even if you have called me a name on here. View attachment 51027

Apologize if I come across as harsh. It's not you...I'm just frustrated with the whole thing and how some people approached it

 

[_Dario]

If anyone would like to see the full instructions that come with the Yates Screamer I just scanned mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Vtbow]

I saw these and they’re activated at 450 lbs, can they also be utilized for continuing load bearing? If we used this on our tether while one sticking, could we continue to use this while weighted at height or like a screamer, could a small dynamic event still cause it to activate? I am asking because I am not as familiar with how this works? I know that in a work positioning harness, the goal per OSHA/ANSI is to keep forces below 900 lbs (which is why it is recommended that you cannot create a fall of 18” or greater) thank you again for this post.

These are designed to be used in conjunction with lanyard lobster claws which are the main support system when working on, setting up, or running a high challenge course and meet all ACCT standards. They are often weighted fully for extended periods of time in normal uses and rescue scenarios.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

If anyone would like to see the full instructions that come with the Yates Screamer I just scanned mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for this

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

These are designed to be used in conjunction with lanyard lobster claws which are the main support system when working on, setting up, or running a high challenge course and meet all ACCT standards. They are often weighted fully for extended periods of time in normal uses and rescue scenarios.

Thank you!

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I never leave the ground. I drive the speed limit to work. I follow all of osha guidelines at work. I pay all my taxes and do everything the cdc says.

You forgot that you also eat 3 square meals a day with at least 2-4 servings of veggies

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

That was an awesome video. Even still it appeared to have had a lot of dynamic rope to stretch along with that dynamic webbing and dynamic rope lanyard…. I say all the time that in my opinion a dynamic rope tether (even a short one) would effectively reduce shock better than a screamer. It will stretch but never introduce a secondary dynamic event like screamers do as they tear away. I still don’t think it necessarily makes the fall is a saddle safe but it is definitely in my opinion the most effective means of absorbing shock.

 

[boyne bowhunter]

@boyne bowhunter has been using a screamer for quite a while now. What’s his take on using it?

Quite honestly I’ve been trying to opt out of this discussion but you asked so here is my take. First off, I do still run a screamer in my tether when climbing one sticking. I only have it in line while performing the climb and immediately remove it once at height.

For the record, I’m not recommending this as a standard practice because, as has been pointed out, I am using this out of spec and I can’t validate the effectiveness of it in this application. For other out of spec uses of things I have made serious attempts to validate their effectiveness at low height prior to incorporating. That is not the case with this. I have personally experienced (and I am the only one I know of who has) the 3.5 foot fall on a slack line when I was a “noobie” saddle hunter and I really don’t want to repeat that again for test purposes or otherwise.

Let’s remember the forces exerted on a body as the result of the fall are a function of: Mass of the person, How far they fall and most importantly How long (or short) of a distance they come to a stop over.

The length of the fall is all about how much speed a body can generate in that distance accelerating due to gravity. The longer the fall the greater the speed generated.

The mass is a multiplier to the deceleration rate for the stop that calculates the resulting force. Given equal initial speeds and stop distances lighter guys will experience a smaller force than heavy guys.

If a fall is going to take place the most defining factor in the force of the resulting stop is the distance it takes to come to that stop. The shorter that distance the greater the deceleration factor and the higher the forces.

For instance, if a 200# guy falls unrestrained for 42in and comes to a stop in a distance of 2in (a completely arbitrary number because I don’t have means to calculate the compliance of a butt or saddle as is loads up) the forces generated will be in the 18-19kN range (4200lbs). That is a scary fact.

Let’s add in 6 feet (bridge and tether) of static line at a 3% elongation (an additional 2.25 in). That takes the forces down to the 9-10kN range (2025 lbs). Still really scary.

Let’s substitute that static line for the same length of 10% elongation dynamic line (about 7.25in). Now that force reduces to the range of 4-5kN (900lbs). Still a significant bump.

Now let’s consider the screamer. If, and this is the huge untested if, the stitching in the 48” screamer pulls out 12in before stopping, the fall force (on static rope) drops to 2-3kN (520lbs). This is a significant reduction but, and this is still the biggest but, these results are untested and the usage is out of spec. It is entirely possible the stitching all pulls out resulting in an additional 48” of fall. Even though that is not unconstrained it still could be detrimental to your health.

As you can see, I’ve done the math but not the physical testing. I have seen a video of a screamer tested in an application similar to ours where a climber purposely took falls off a wall with a screamer in line and it seemed to work as I would like it to . . . but that test was not entirely representative of our use. That climber was on belay at the end of at least 15ft of rope (falling 3 feet on a 15foot rope, much more stretch, much lower fall factor) with a belayer who was also moving at the point of impact. Both of those will significantly reduce the force generated on the screamer from our usage.

I use a screamer at my own risk in the hope it will perform as I intend it to if I ever need it to. There may be better solutions available (Kong Kisa maybe) but I don’t know of them. Ultimately the best defense is to not take the plunge to begin with. If for you that means not one-stick climbing so be it. I happen to like one sticking so I practice as much as I can to develop a repeatable routine where the screamer will never be necessary. In my system its only there as a redundancy factor, not a primary safety measure. There are too many unknowns in the equation to rely on it unequivocally. Climbing trees is dangerous . . . do so only at your own risk.

And to @kyler1945 and @Fl Canopy Stalker 's defense in these threads they're only trying to help remind you to do you own due diligence before taking the word of some internet yahoo, myself included, before assuming something you see done is safe and reliable.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Quite honestly I’ve been trying to opt out of this discussion but you asked so here is my take. First off, I do still run a screamer in my tether when climbing one sticking. I only have it in line while performing the climb and immediately remove it once at height.

For the record, I’m not recommending this as a standard practice because, as has been pointed out, I am using this out of spec and I can’t validate the effectiveness of it in this application. For other out of spec uses of things I have made serious attempts to validate their effectiveness at low height prior to incorporating. That is not the case with this. I have personally experienced (and I am the only one I know of who has) the 3.5 foot fall on a slack line when I was a “noobie” saddle hunter and I really don’t want to repeat that again for test purposes or otherwise.

Let’s remember the forces exerted on a body as the result of the fall are a function of: Mass of the person, How far they fall and most importantly How long (or short) of a distance they come to a stop over.

The length of the fall is all about how much speed a body can generate in that distance accelerating due to gravity. The longer the fall the greater the speed generated.

The mass is a multiplier to the deceleration rate for the stop that calculates the resulting force. Given equal initial speeds and stop distances lighter guys will experience a smaller force than heavy guys.

If a fall is going to take place the most defining factor in the force of the resulting stop is the distance it takes to come to that stop. The shorter that distance the greater the deceleration factor and the higher the forces.

For instance, if a 200# guy falls unrestrained for 42in and comes to a stop in a distance of 2in (a completely arbitrary number because I don’t have means to calculate the compliance of a butt or saddle as is loads up) the forces generated will be in the 18-19kN range (4200lbs). That is a scary fact.

Let’s add in 6 feet (bridge and tether) of static line at a 3% elongation (an additional 2.25 in). That takes the forces down to the 9-10kN range (2025 lbs). Still really scary.

Let’s substitute that static line for the same length of 10% elongation dynamic line (about 7.25in). Now that force reduces to the range of 4-5kN (900lbs). Still a significant bump.

Now let’s consider the screamer. If, and this is the huge untested if, the stitching in the 48” screamer pulls out 12in before stopping, the fall force (on static rope) drops to 2-3kN (520lbs). This is a significant reduction but, and this is still the biggest but, these results are untested and the usage is out of spec. It is entirely possible the stitching all pulls out resulting in an additional 48” of fall. Even though that is not unconstrained it still could be detrimental to your health.

As you can see, I’ve done the math but not the physical testing. I have seen a video of a screamer tested in an application similar to ours where a climber purposely took falls off a wall with a screamer in line and it seemed to work as I would like it to . . . but that test was not entirely representative of our use. That climber was on belay at the end of at least 15ft of rope (falling 3 feet on a 15foot rope, much more stretch, much lower fall factor) with a belayer who was also moving at the point of impact. Both of those will significantly reduce the force generated on the screamer from our usage.

I use a screamer at my own risk in the hope it will perform as I intend it to if I ever need it to. There may be better solutions available (Kong Kisa maybe) but I don’t know of them. Ultimately the best defense is to not take the plunge to begin with. If for you that means not one-stick climbing so be it. I happen to like one sticking so I practice as much as I can to develop a repeatable routine where the screamer will never be necessary. In my system its only there as a redundancy factor, not a primary safety measure. There are too many unknowns in the equation to rely on it unequivocally. Climbing trees is dangerous . . . do so only at your own risk.

And to @kyler1945 and @Fl Canopy Stalker 's defense in these threads they're only trying to help remind you to do you own due diligence before taking the word of some internet yahoo, myself included, before assuming something you see done is safe and reliable.

This is very well put! I believe before the end of this hunting season I will have to have this tested. Not to be right or wrong but just so we have some recognizable form of data (a dummy doesn’t absorb shock the way our bodies do and as you’ve said not all falls will be the same) but at least we will have some reference point and some shred of expectation on the topic of a screamer while one sticking. For now I created a post that will contain the response from Yates. And as soon as I get a chance to head back up to Ga, I’ll perform a few drop tests with screamers so that we have a basis for the “at our own risk” train of thought. Thank you for the excellent response

 

[320thmp]

I just got off the phone with REI and the screamer is used in the exact application we would use it in for a hunting situation. A 200 ln body will generate 1800 pounds of force in a 6 foot fall, the screamer activates at 500 pounds and reduces your ft pounds by 900, so it cuts that fall force in half in this given situation. The runner used in the screamer is rated at 5000 lbs also. These are FACTS..

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I just got off the phone with REI and the screamer is used in the exact application we would use it in for a hunting situation. A 200 ln body will generate 1800 pounds of force in a 6 foot fall, the screamer activates at 500 pounds and reduces your ft pounds by 900, so it cuts that fall force in half in this given situation. The runner used in the screamer is rated at 5000 lbs also. These are FACTS..

I went to REI to buy a ropeman 1 because they have them on line, I went to the climbing section and they had no idea what saddle hunting was. In fact they had to look up the rope man 1 on their internet system because the “climbing expert” didn’t even know what one was. Needless to say I didn’t purchase a ropeman 1 from them. These are also facts

 

[Marmuzz]

@320thmp was there a particular screamer in mention you discussed with REI, or just the device(s) in general?

 

[320thmp]

I went to REI to buy a ropeman 1 because they have them on line, I went to the climbing section and they had no idea what saddle hunting was. In fact they had to look up the rope man 1 on their internet system because the “climbing expert” didn’t even know what one was. Needless to say I didn’t purchase a ropeman 1 from them. These are also facts

Well the woman I talked to knew exactly what I was talking about cause I took the time to explain it to them, I called about a ropeman 1 as well a while ago... again I took the time to explain the application I was going to use it for and they gave me the info I need... maybe you should have done the same.