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"Gutless Method"

Re: Saddle Hunting: Packing up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJHb6Wo ... verified=1

This is a pretty good example of the gutless method. My only complaint was that he missed quite a bit of the "flank" meat that should come with the front shoulder (the backside of the shoulder that goes over the ribs, all good grinding meat). Other than that though, good explanation of what I was talking about.


Also as a taxidermist, I would add that you may want to talk to your taxidermist before doing this and specifically ask about what kind of incision they prefer. Cutting up the back of the neck, especially early season capes leaves a lot of sewing. Some guys prefer the long cut (which is what you see in the video). I prefer a very short Y cut....which would leave no cuts up the neck (I would make the cuts to remove the antlers and finish caping). Instead of the way he did it, you'd roll the skin down towards the head like a sock skinning as you go, once you get to the atlas joint, or slightly before, cut the head off (can be done with a knife). This is obviously more difficult when the animal is laying on it's side, but it can be done. I've done it in pickup beds so....I know it's tough, but all that sewing is annoying, and on early season capes, it's more difficult to make it completely invisible, as opposed to no stitching.


Also, when I recommended those other packs, I was thinking more about the way I carry camp with me out west, but for back here and just meat hauling duty, you may just want to get a pack frame with a shelf. Since you don't need it for carrying gear, just use your regular pack and wear the shelf carrier in and stash it nearby on the long hunts. If you need it, AWESOME! If not, it's a few extra pounds and you could hook up your other pack to it with other gear for the hike in and out. Not knowing what you carry, hard to say which is the better option.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabelas- ... RRWidgetID

Good luck! If you get to use this method this year, please post back to let us know what you thought. :)



Didn't watch the whole video, but from what I saw, this video was more thorough. May want to watch both of them if you plan on doing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZZZqSFMSZQ
 
Re: Saddle Hunting: Packing up

Nice,

Thanks for the insight.
I started a thread on The Gutless method in the "Deer Hunting" section here last night.
I have a set of TAG Bags but haven't gotten a frame as of yet.

Where I am hunting now, I am not more than 3/4 mile out so I can deal with a bit if pain if needed.
If I'm hauling meat I won't be complaining :)
 
Never heard of the "rib roll". Had to look it up just now. Very interesting. I've always cut the rib meat out if I even take it at all. I am definitely trying the rib roll next chance I get though. On an elk, it would be a lot of meat. On a deer....eh not so much...but worth trying. Thanks for showing me.

Nice getting the alice....With your Alice Frame, I believe they have shelves you can add on, BUT may I suggest looking into sewing one up and attaching it with straps first?

I've been thinking about modifying my ILBE using my old MOLLE frame (if I can find it) so that the main pack would just be held in the "shelf and wings" and if I have to pack out an elk quarter, it goes between the frame and main pack.

All you really need is a durable flap that starts at the bottom of the frame and can clip to the top of the frame. So some fabric and some straps and buckles. Add some wings to the sides for more stability and you have a nice pack.

Take a look at this pack and get an idea of what I mean. I've seen a few of you guys are really good at sewing, so if that's something you can do, you might want to try that before adding the metal shelf for the alice frame.

Hopefully this all makes sense....Look at this pack though and let your imagination run wild....this is like what i want to build with my molle/ilbe
watch the video to see all the features

http://www.tenzingoutdoors.com/tz_cf13.php
 
Matty said:
Hopefully this all makes sense....Look at this pack though and let your imagination run wild....this is like what i want to build with my molle/ilbe
watch the video to see all the features

http://www.tenzingoutdoors.com/tz_cf13.php
Click to expand...
Matty, after watching that video, nothing I can do is every going to compare to that pack! But phew, at $840 bucks, not gonna happen.

So now that you are putting all of these ideas into my head, I am thinking that using an alice frame to carry my climbing sticks will be better than the bag I made. I am not familiar with the military stuff though. Is there a specific model or anything I should be looking for? The ones popping up on ebay look pretty cheap. As long as the price is reasonable I'm not too concerned about the cost if I can make it do what I need. And also, what is the shelf?
 
I honestly have almost no knowledge of the ALICE frames/packs. Pretty sure I've never even touched one. lol Wish I could help more with them, but know nadda....

I do know a lot more about MOLLE and ILBE though since I've used both a lot. Once my youngest brother gets back from Marine Corps Boot Camp too, I'll have an idea about their new gear. (filbe, 3S sleep system, etc)

The Marine Corps uses a lot of great gear that can be transferred over to hunting, however, most of it's built "bomb proof" and durable enough to go to war, literally. LOL So it's rarely all that light, but it's a lot cheaper in cost when you get it as surplus.

That being said, watching that video should give you a lot of ideas for packs. I'm mainly into that stuff for Western hunting, but much of it can be applied to whitetails and make us more efficient or able to go way beyond the crowds, etc.

If I was you, I'd look at MOLLE gen iv frames and straps....the frame and straps aren't as comfortable as the ILBE is...(the ilbe is a dream to carry)....but I've done 120# on the molle frame and it was ok. anything under about 80# is real comfortable with both packs....but my vote goes to the ILBE on comfort. (guys do occasionally break molle frames over 100# of weight though, mine flexed a lot at high weight, but unless you dropped it on something hard, I couldn't see it breaking)

The MOLLE frame is similar to the frame for that tenzing (except not carbon fiber and you don't need to remortgage your home). So you should be able to make something very similar with some material, webbing, buckles, etc.

No way would I pay $800 for a pack either, unless it carried ME around the mountains. LOL
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Military-MO ... 41623ab23f


Not saying this is where to order it from, because I have no idea how that price compares, or his feedback, etc...but grabbed the first example that came up. That is what I'm talking about. You can see how it wouldn't be that difficult to add wings and a "shelf" made of fabric. (The shelf I'm referring too is just a support at the bottom of the pack. The flap that holds things in vertically. The alice frame has a metal one I believe, but probably heavy)


If you can do some research on it, I think I've heard they have better aftermarket padded shoulder straps and hip belt that you can get for the molle frame, but I'm not sure. They probably even have better frames that are similar, but the best pricing will probably be on original issue gear. This stuff hasn't been used for a number of years now, so it can be had really cheap and there has to be tons of them out there.

I'm going to see if I can modify the ilbe shoulder straps and waist belt to fit the molle frame. (again, have to find my dang molle frame first, but that's the plan)

Let us know if either of you guys create a Frankenpack. I'll do the same, but it might be a while. No time lately.
 
Thanks for all that info Matt. I just picked up a molle gen 4 frame with shoulder and waist straps for 36 bucks including shipping on ebay. For my purpose I think that it will be perfect. My first project is something that makes carrying my 5 lone wolf sticks in easier. The custom bag I made works good, but I have to shift it around to get to the sweet spot where it doesn't irritate me. After looking at these frames i realized that the part I am missing is getting them directly off my back. I'll let you know how that works out when I get it, and then I'm sure I'll want to move on to Frankenpack at some point.
 
Scott,

When you say getting them directly off your back, will you be able to take the whole pack off or you need just the sticks to come off?

Because the one nice thing about the shoulder straps is they are quick release. Pull up on the little tab and it disconnects. So you don't even have to slide your arm out. Undo one side, swing the pack around take out your sticks, reclip the shoulder strap release and put the pack back on.

Obviously you'll need to silence all the plastic in the back of this thing if you're strapping stuff directly to it. My thinking is to either make a fabric covering that covers the entire back frame (and leaves access points for straps/buckles or has them sewn on to connect items) or use tape, stealth strips, moleskin, etc....

The other thing I'm wondering is...If you have a bag for your climbing sticks already, maybe something like an FLC would be better for your needs.


Before I started using my turkey vest again for deer hunting (slightly modified), I used to use an FLC (fighting load carrier vest) (also called LBV or Load Bearing Vest)....


It's basically a mesh/fabric vest with PALS all over it. You can pick and choose some dump pouches, grenade pouches, etc, and configure it just about any way you want. That way every item you carry can have a specific place on your vest, and you can put them in areas that don't interfere with shooting a bow, or any other movements.

Without having seen your stick bag.....I'm thinking with that, you could probably feed two webbing straps with fastex buckles on the ends up through a few of the front molle web straps. Attach two of the female buckles to the climbing stick bag you wear now. Now the climbing stick bag would sit on your back and the weight would be carried over your shoulders. When you need your sticks it's just a matter of unclipping the two buckles. This way you could do it as you go up the tree if you have to.



The packs are more for a way to carry a lot of gear and/or meat. The LBV would be just for smaller amounts of gear.


The other thing with the LBV is that you can probably rig it as shoulder straps for your saddle too. I never did that because I go between saddle and stands on occasion and I keep all my hunting gear in one vest. Otherwise I'd have to have duplicate gear, or move stuff from vest to vest all the time.



Here is a LBV though to give you an idea....Without knowing exactly how you plan to use the system, I can't say what is best, or if any of this is good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSmZwamHVA


In any case, I think you'll be happy with the molle frame. You should be able to come up with something very similar to the Tenzing with that. And if you decide to switch to the FLC, they are also cheap and you can always get what you paid for the MOLLE. Lot's of "preppers" and stuff that want this stuff.
 
Great info!

The Alice setup I have now has the bag and the frame.
The Straps and waist belt that came with it are modern.
The whole thing was $60 at a local MilSurp.
I have a small saw, TP (for tracking) paper towels/wipes, gloves, contractor bags and game bags in the outer pouches.
It's going to stay in the truck until needed for now.

The standard Alice Frame shelves are only 3" deep and don't fold up. Usually about $10
Also helps hold it upright when you are loading it.
You can add 2 shelves to it. Hauling Radio gear and ammo cans is what it was made for.

I've seen some people add plywood to them to extend them out. Don't think I want that weight.
I just wonder how 50# of meat would carry in the Alice bag without a shelf if you had some lashing to keep it on the frame.
Might have to load it up and see.

I am going to experiment with having a whole modular setup on a frame for my hunting pack too.
I have a soft DayOne Daypack that would be nice to have the option of quick release mounting it to a frame that could also carry a Seat, Ground Blind material, Quiver, Bow, Camping Hammock setup, Water...

But the customizing options with a modular/frame set up are WAY better than spending a ton of money on a pack that can only be used one way.
I only do 1 mile back hunts now but am slowly building up to a camping rig.
 
JSD,

As long as the load isn't shifting and the weight is tight to the frame, I can't imagine any problems without the shelf.

I'd definitely look into getting everything onto the ALICE frame with a modular packing system like you mentioned. That way you don't have to come back out to get everything when you down a deer a mile in. Carrying weight on these frame packs is easy, so you can save the mileage on the legs by taking it with you and stashing it nearby. (I wouldn't bring it all the way up in the tree)

Not familiar with the day pack you're talking about, but I bet you can make it attach to the frame with some buckles.

Another pack to look at for some ideas is from Mystery Ranch. (I believe they designed the new USMC packs) The "CrewCab" is a pretty neat pack and also similar to what we've been talking about here.

http://www.mysteryranch.com/hunting/nic ... ewcab-pack


You hammock camp too?

I have a hammock setup for hunting also. Used it in Idaho last year down to just below freezing. I made my own ultralight underquilt with reflective material and used a SOL bivy for more warmth in the hammock. Worked great....except when we went to an area with no trees. LOL

My entire camp setup (hammock, sleeping bag, winter tarp, ropes, straps, etc) weighed about 8#'s and packed into a small compression sack. And with the ENO straps and the way I pre-tied different lines with tiny clips and tautline hitches....I was setup and ready to sleep in way less time than the guys with tents. It was a thing of beauty....as long as I had trees.

I don't think it's legal to sleep out on public lands where I live, otherwise I'd do that type of hunting all the time. With the elk, it allows you to just stay with them and camp nearby each night. Because there's no way in hell I am hiking 4-5 miles every day to go from the parking area to the elk. lol I'd be dead after day 2.

Would be fun as all get out though to do the same for big bucks back here. I can think of a few areas that it would be awesome. Only thing is, I think we have more problems with bears here than where we go in Idaho. I'd have to hope black bears don't like MRE's....lol
 
Matt,

Here are some photos of the bag I put together. http://www.saddlehunter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=157. When I say "get it off my back" I mean for the frame to hold it out away from my back a little while I am hiking so that it doesn't keep banging me in the head or neck. Being able to slide one out as I climb will be a bonus too. Right now I put the first 2 on from the ground and then the next three as I climb. The first thought I had when I watched the video you posted was that the carbon fiber frame would be awesome for carrying them, and when you posted about the molle, it looks like it should do what I need. I will either make a small cloth wrap to cover the sticks to silence them or I will stealth strip the frame. Either way, for $36 bucks I will find a good use for this system.

I don't think we can sleep out on the public land here either. Even though you can hike the appalachian trail through the water gap I don't think you can actually do it and hunt. I would love if you could though. I would love to get way the hell back there during turkey season, roost one, setup camp and get on him early the next morning.

Your elk trips sound awesome. I really have been wanting to do that, and I'm thinking if I don't start planning on it sooner than later it will never happen.
 
I'm starting a new thread for my molle frame, so be sure to check that out guys.
 
It looks like we wouldn't be able to use the gutless method in NJ anymore. This is an excerpt of the wording of the rule change:

It is unlawful for any person to place, leave, dump
or abandon a game mammal, game bird or wildlife
carcass or parts of it along or upon a public rightof-way
or highway, or on public or private property,
including a waterway or stream, without the permission
of the owner or tenant, or on any wildlife
management area or state park. Make every effort
to retrieve your game, remove the animal from the
field—except entrails may be left discretely in the
field—consume the edible portions and properly
dispose of the remains such as bagged in your
household trash.
 
No need to spend $800 to carry 300 lbs. Ridiculous.

I bought the Hunter's Carryall from LL Bean a few years ago. I've done 2 elk hunts with the pack and hauled numerous treestand setups deep into the woods. The pack/strap portion is nearly identical to the Tenzing version with wings and a bottom strap. Oh yeah...it's only $89, about 10% of the cost of the TZ pack.

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/64392?page=hunters-carryall-pack
 
Depending on area laws, the last few years I've been de-boning them where they fall. Line an Alice pack with a garbage bag and haul just meat out. Take head if needed. Even on private land where I could pick them up with the 4 wheeler, I've brought them back to the camp and while the skinning rack was being used, I deboned them on the ground. It's nice to be done with it all at once. No more take home quartered in icechest and debone later.
 
I debone and quarter. I'm the one who pushed to have the law clarified in PA. I'd never go back unless forced in a specific state. If it's something you're interested in and your state doesn't allow it push for it.

Be reasonable too though. Dont quarter in someone's back yard.

We have to bring the head out.
 
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