Hooks, Lies, and Thinkers

[BTaylor]

That is pretty deep and, I'd like to think, brutally honest... I like to think of myself as somewhat philosophic and intelligent, and this definitely is thought invoking. I will say though, that everything acknowledgeable by any individual is tinted by the lens they grant themselves to view the subject through.

Glad you bumped the thread and posted about that article.

As I read through it, I was noting things that I disagree or find fault with what @Nutterbuster wrote. As I was finishing it up and afterwards, it dawned on me that my perspective on the subject is mine. It is colored by my experiences, teachings, mentors, faith, etc.. His perceptions are likewise colored by the same and they are different than mine. Therein lies, I believe the largest hurdle to a unified hunting message to the non-hunting public. The anti's are unified because they only have one perception and largely no experience against which to weight their beliefs. There are many reasons I am a hunter. Some of those reasons are moderately weighted and some are anchored to the very core of my being. One of the latter is the fact I have never shied away from professing my love of killing critters. I feel there is great value, that has application in many other areas of life, in being a capable and confident killer within the confines of the game regulations. But to get back on track with discussing the article, I went back through it a second time and the same line stuck out to me as the only objectionable point. Preservation of culture and heritage, imo, is not found in a museum. Heritage and culture is preserved in how we live our daily lives. Maybe those thing change the more we live, learn and experience and as we evaluate the aspects that are and are not worth preserving. Like Nick, there have been a couple of times in my life where I seriously questioned why I just killed a particular animal. I knew the answer, I like killing. Twisted up in the emotion and evaluation though were the facts that while I was within the legal limit, I didnt particularly need or have use for the meat. Our heritage and culture is passed on as we share with and teach others. The value of that I reckon is best measured by the moral and ethical behaviors we individually exhibit. Hopefully more of us as hunters, as we mature in our pursuits, hold dearly to the heritage and culture that brings value worth passing on, an understanding and appreciation for our environment, love and appreciation for the critters that call it home, a growing understanding of the symbiotic relationship of all living things, the value of being capable of violence but the higher value in having absolute control over that ability, and the gratification of being able to provide for our families are just a few of the things that quickly come to mind.

Really great article @Nutterbuster

 

[redsquirrel]

@Nutterbuster, I was telling someone at work last week about my 3:30 am wake up call the next morning to go duck hunting and and she questioned why I would ever do that. In the moment I thought I came up with a pretty good answer and I told her that you have to do something to make yourself feel alive. I work in an office and spend most of my day in a chair at a desk. At this time of year especially, when it is dark out for the majority of my free time, I really struggle. I think that prompted me to take a quick look inside and ask myself why and I think "to feel alive" is a perfect way to put it. Personally I don't hunt or fish to kill. I do it for the adventure. I love shooting a big buck or catching a ton of fish but more than anything I love the pursuit of it all.

 

[Swamp Fox__On The Run]

Awesome essay… I’ve tried several times to go largely vegetarian with the exception of meat I procure. I like the vegggie food but learning new recipes and getting them in muscle memory has been the hardest part. Intend to keep trying. Enjoying the killing for me faded with age (I’m 45 now), and likely will to some degree for all of you young guys. genuinely don’t relish that part, but still am obsessed with the puzzle and being successful at it. Concern for the creatures also puts me firmly in the “high percentage shots only” category. We blow off bad shots with “they’re tough critters” or “he’ll survive” but the thought of a non fatal hit and all the implications of that makes me sick. Folks would have less chill if that was an errant shot put into their black lab, especially if no medical attention for the dog was available. Drone Deer Recovery on youtube has put a spotlight on our failure rate in the past year. Meat is murder IMO, but clean kills on wild game still seems like a better option than factory raised animals living lives of misery. Wild game wouldn’t support the human population so there’s only two options to move the dial there… far less meat consumption per capita, and lab grown flesh. There’s too many of us and yep it’s a dilemma.

You lost me at "meat is murder" but it's good to see hunters thinking about what they're doing.

The essay is excellent and possibly one of the best I've read on the contemplative side of hunting ...and I've read a bunch. I have some quibbles and disagreements, but I'm sure I will be going back to it again and again to mine it. (Can I say that?)

 

[gcr0003]

"Promise not to do anything to my butthole?"

How men make friends and women get murdered.

nickwilliamsoutdoors.substack.com

Besides the appalling title, the sentiment of this one is relatable. I’ve met some good fellas from this very website that I may have not interacted with or came across otherwise. Most of those friendships started over sharing thoughts on gear, tactics, hunting, fishing and what have you and then setting up a hunt together. Turns out it’s a quick way to find a hunting or fishing partner and possibly a life long friend as well. As weird as that seems to my wife, and as sketchy as it would be if the roles were reversed, us men have a knack for fraternity and fellowship that is shared in tackling stuff like hunting and fishing together. I enjoy spending my time alone in the woods, but it’s also refreshing to share in the successes of a morning, day, or weekend of hunting or fishing with a friend.

 

[Nutterbuster]

I agree with you on pretty much all points made, particularly my error regarding culture and heritage. I'd still maintain that the spirit of my point holds, because there's so much of (in my case) "Southern heritage" that has nothing to do with hunting. If i was going to rewrite, I'd perhaps say that I could preserve my heritage by cooking Maw-Maw's cornbread recipe for my daughter once a week.

I do disagree with you on the following:

The anti's are unified because they only have one perception and largely no experience against which to weight their beliefs.

I think you and I have discussed this before. Saying "the antis" is like saying "the blacks," "the whites," "the rich," whatever. Anti hunters are no more unified than hunters, and in my experience exist on a spectrum. A hardline vegan who insists that harvesting honey from bees is theft of labor is an anti, but so is the guy who enjoys a hamburger but thinks that trophy hunting is distasteful. Heck, most of the people on this forum are "antis" from the perspective of guys who enjoy high-fence hunting or shooting pen-raised birds. My SIL is fine with deer hunting, encourages hog hunting, but has deep misgivings about waterfowl hunting as a result of declining populations of certain species. There are politically active and inactive antis, and antis with well-though-out objections and gut-reactions.

If they were as numerous and well-organized as some people maintain, the 4% of the population that hunts wouldn't be hunting.

 

[BTaylor]

If they were as numerous and well-organized as some people maintain, the 4% of the population that hunts wouldn't be hunting.

We are steadily losing WAY more hunting and trapping opportunities than we are gaining. As a percentage of population, my guess would be the hardcore anti-hunter numbers are probably similar to hunters or maybe less but they are well funded, better organized, and more adept at using the legal system to achieve their goals. There are certainly types of hunting that I am not in favor of existing but that is based on experience or first hand exposure. I will not publicly advocate for them to be shut down though because I see that as cutting my own nose off. I have spoken with or listened too a fair number of anti's and not once have I ever been around one that had any first hand experience or exposure to hunting or trapping. Nor have I ever been around one that had the foggiest idea about population or habitat management. They are very much like other elements of society that think everyone else is wrong and the enemy if they dont believe what the group wants them to believe with no regard to logic much less science. Maybe the biggest hurdle for hunters is the lack of political support. In broad stroke terms, the left is much more inclined to protect habitat but also more likely to restrict opportunity, whereas the right is going to absolutely fight for the 2nd Amendment but just as likely to either want to sell off public land or destroy habitat with resource extraction. Unless it lines the pockets on both sides of the aisle, good luck finding a common sense middle ground that benefits the majority.

 

[bowhunthard88]

We are steadily losing WAY more hunting and trapping opportunities than we are gaining. As a percentage of population, my guess would be the hardcore anti-hunter numbers are probably similar to hunters or maybe less but they are well funded, better organized, and more adept at using the legal system to achieve their goals. There are certainly types of hunting that I am not in favor of existing but that is based on experience or first hand exposure. I will not publicly advocate for them to be shut down though because I see that as cutting my own nose off. I have spoken with or listened too a fair number of anti's and not once have I ever been around one that had any first hand experience or exposure to hunting or trapping. Nor have I ever been around one that had the foggiest idea about population or habitat management. They are very much like other elements of society that think everyone else is wrong and the enemy if they dont believe what the group wants them to believe with no regard to logic much less science. Maybe the biggest hurdle for hunters is the lack of political support. In broad stroke terms, the left is much more inclined to protect habitat but also more likely to restrict opportunity, whereas the right is going to absolutely fight for the 2nd Amendment but just as likely to either want to sell off public land or destroy habitat with resource extraction. Unless it lines the pockets on both sides of the aisle, good luck finding a common sense middle ground that benefits the majority.

I also feel that the anti-hunting groups have a bit more "shelf-appeal" to the middle ground than the pro-hunting groups, as it's easier to assign them a "morality" representation than attempt to understand the hunting viewpoint... I make my living in the outdoor retail market and I see unsettling stuff on a daily basis, however, hunting and the outdoor space is truly a lifestyle for me (and my family) and I am not an "influencer" in the prominent sense.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

I think the kill is a big part of it for me. Closely related is the sensation of going into the woods without a deer, and leaving with one.

I connect with @redsquirrel's description of desire to "feel alive".

The article and this discussion made me think about catch & release fishing. The thrill of the bite, the hook set, the fight, and the hold, are the primary motivators (perhaps in descending order). While I keep and eat other fish species and feel similar sensations to deer hunting, I don't keep bass yet I love fishing for them. Maybe I'm just piling up dopamine hits as if I was catching to eat/feed. Makes me wonder if the tech and cultural approval to stun deer long enough to touch and take a photo would lead to "catch & release hunting" similar to bass fishing?

Would that be ethically superior to harvest hunting? Do numbers matter? Thousands of shrimp, or one deer? Is survivable "harassment/suffering" for large numbers better than fatal versions for smaller numbers?

Interesting stuff to ponder.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

 

[TNSTAAFL]

On the fishing front, I remember watching some saltwater show as a kid where they were fishing for Bluefish I believe, and there was such a huge school by the boat that they decided to remove the hooks from their baits and just cast into the school over and over to feel hundreds of bites. Perhaps just a novel approach to a rare situation. Perhaps a statement of priority of goals in the whole endeavor.

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[bowhunthard88]

The kill is the period on the sentence for me. While it is an integral part of the sentence; without the anticipation, planning, build up, preparation, and "thrill of the chase"; it is of itself a minimal part. That statement being true, the actual kill has the largest physiological and psychological impact although a short-lived one! I have personally passed the milestone of hunting to kill, and I let more deer "walk" than I do choose to "walk up to". I hunt to kill, but I hunt to kill what engages me in [that] moment; it's no longer a numbers game...

 

[Swamp Fox__On The Run]

I think the kill is a big part of it for me. Closely related is the sensation of going into the woods without a deer, and leaving with one.

I connect with @redsquirrel's description of desire to "feel alive".

The article and this discussion made me think about catch & release fishing. The thrill of the bite, the hook set, the fight, and the hold, are the primary motivators (perhaps in descending order). While I keep and eat other fish species and feel similar sensations to deer hunting, I don't keep bass yet I love fishing for them. Maybe I'm just piling up dopamine hits as if I was catching to eat/feed. Makes me wonder if the tech and cultural approval to stun deer long enough to touch and take a photo would lead to "catch & release hunting" similar to bass fishing?

Would that be ethically superior to harvest hunting? Do numbers matter? Thousands of shrimp, or one deer? Is survivable "harassment/suffering" for large numbers better than fatal versions for smaller numbers?

Interesting stuff to ponder.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

This forum needs a way to identify the author of the quote when quoting ... But that's none of my business ... So ... [drinks tea from a pitcher] ... Thumbs up to @TNSTAAFAL

There is a difference between fishing and hunting in here if we dig for it ... We should.

Meanwhile, a few of my favorite philosophical quotes on hunting, from Jose Ortega y Gasset:

In our rather stupid time, hunting is belittled and misunderstood, many refusing to see it for the vital vacation from the human condition that it is, or to acknowledge that the hunter does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, he kills in order to have hunted.

We have not reached ethical perfection in hunting. One never achieves perfection in anything, and perhaps it exists precisely so that one can never achieve it. Its purpose is to orient our conduct and to allow us to measure the progress accomplished. In this sense, the advancement achieved in the ethics of hunting is undeniable.

The hunter who accepts the sporting code of ethics keeps his commandments in the greatest solitude, with no witness or audience other than the sharp peaks of the mountain, the roaming cloud, the stern oak, the trembling juniper, and the passing animal.

Life is a terrible conflict, a grandiose and atrocious confluence. Hunting submerges man deliberately in that formidable mystery and therefore contains something of religious rite and emotion in which homage is paid to what is divine, transcendent, and in the laws of Nature.

The hunter is the alert man. But this itself—life as complete alertness—is the attitude in which the animal exists in the jungle.


***

 

[HuskerInIowa]

Hornswoggling

Back when I still worked for a living, I used to have a lunch break routine. I’d usually sneak a bit of food on-the-clock, and use my “lunch” to cruise the local pawn shops. There were six within reasonable driving distance of me, and I could hit 3-4 of them on my break. I’d rotate through them...

nickwilliamsoutdoors.substack.com

Good read this week as usual. Probably should cross post in the support thread! Haha! Bonus points for use of id.