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Madrock Safeguard makes me uneasy

Kayl said:
The brake hand is the key.
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deerfly said:
yes of course, you need to have enough separation between madrock on your bridge and autoblock on your linemans loop or secondary bridge to avoid that condition. I can't imagine madrock being against using an autoblock, more likely they're against using it wrong.

But again tying autoblock (correctly) is very easy to do and safe. I don't use mechanical belay devices for rappel any more, I use figure 8 or munter instead. When I'm descending with the intention of resetting or removing my platform I use the autoblock on my linesman loop so I can work hands free. Otherwise I tend the tag end by hand.
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I have a Madrock and a GRIGRI PLUS and use the GRIGRI over the Madrock. The GRIGRI PLUS had an anti panic feature. So if you pull the handle to far it stops the rappel. Also it's a lot smoother. You can backup the Madrock with a auto block on you brake hand. Go on YouTube and check out about auto blocks and the GRIGRI PLUS. I always backup my device at hunting height and when rappelling.
 
rutjr said:
LOL I still haven't gone into the basement to check but I thought the handle is to disengage the brake, the weight of your body pulls the brake closed. I have never had my safeguard creep at all but my Grigri+ does.
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I have never had my GRIGRI PLUS creep. I still back up my devices with an auto block. I just don't understand why more guys don't. It only takes a second or two to back them up.
 
Apex7 said:
I have never had my GRIGRI PLUS creep. I still back up my devices with an auto block. I just don't understand why more guys don't. It only takes a second or two to back them up.
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Because you're not supposed to per manufacters. If the block gets up into the device, it's stuck. Which obviously if your spacing is correct, it can't. But again we're using all this stuff out of spec anyways, unless you are also worried about what OSHA thinks then use common sense and put together a system that works for you.
 
On one hand I agree regarding common sense but all the circular logic sprinkled with flat-out falsehoods is exhausting. We have no equipment standards. We are not arborists. We have climbing trees in common and it pretty much ends there. Our repurposed climbing and canyoneering gear isn't meant to displace arborist gear, because we aren't arborists, ok! Are we in agreement with that yet? We are borrowing from many disciplines. This has all been hashed out many times over and there is no resolution. Don't seek to be trained for something so dangerous over the internet, end of story.
 
elk yinzer said:
Because you're not supposed to per manufacters. If the block gets up into the device, it's stuck. Which obviously if your spacing is correct, it can't. But again we're using all this stuff out of spec anyways, unless you are also worried about what OSHA thinks then use common sense and put together a system that works for you.
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I am unsure what you mean by out of spec? I use a 9mm rope to rappel on which is in spec for both devices. They are designed not just to belay on but also lead climb descending as well as rescue belaying. I don’t worry about Osha while recreationally hunting because OSHA doesn’t oversee recreational activities. I was simply stating that the OSHA approved mechanical rappel (descenders) devices were all auto locking which mean the cam locks (brakes) automatically when the handle is released. The safe guard is not. From there I was told we needed to apply the same logic to the saddles we use. All that was for example sake only. The whole conversation following went far off track simply because most people on here that use this stuff have ideas that the devices will always do a certain thing that even the manufacturer says it isn’t designed to do. And again I was absolutely wrong about the directional pull of the spring assist but I am not wrong about the mechanical cam verses an auto locking cam.
As with the autoblock, I’m not sure where the idea of the hitch or block sucking into the device came from. Madrock explains that the device is designed to allow the rope to slowly slip through the cam as it catches. To accomplish this the brake line side has to be able to stretch and slide (not freely mind you but still able to move).
Once an autoblock locks down, the rope won’t be able to stretch and it won’t continue to slide into the device. That means the device will absorb the full dynamic event and could break from the force or break the rope. The same applies with a knot on the brake line. The knot won’t suck into the device, it’ll bind up and the rope can’t stretch or feed back into the cam. The autoblock sliding into the cam is never mentioned so in my mind, spacing doesn’t change the danger.
But again if your hitch to the tree is tight, there’s no loose bark or branch that could break or bend, and you know for fact that you can’t produce a dynamic event in the first place, none of that stuff about the autoblock is relevant. Interestingly, gri gri suggests tying off the device on the brake side and using a locking toggle instead of a knot to go hands free on their website. Madrock shows tying off on the device it a manner that would allow the rope some free room to stretch.

I hope what I am saying makes sense.
 
elk yinzer said:
Because you're not supposed to per manufacters. If the block gets up into the device, it's stuck. Which obviously if your spacing is correct, it can't. But again we're using all this stuff out of spec anyways, unless you are also worried about what OSHA thinks then use common sense and put together a system that works for you.
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My autoblock is far enough away from my GRIGRI that I anticipate it wouldn't happen. I tried to go over all the scenarios of what could go wrong. At hunting hunt my autoblock is on my rappel line above the GRIGRI and connected to the carabiner just in case the GRIGRI would fail . When I'm ready to rappel I put a second autoblock on my brake rappel line well below my GRIGRI and disconnect the autoblock above it.
 
I have hunted with the Safeguard for 2 years now. I use it to one stick and also to rappel. I use it on Resc Tech 8mm rope (yes, I know it's out of spec) but I also use it on an even smaller rope (won't name it so some of yall wont stroke out). In my experience when I'm using the 8mm rope and i let go of the handle it may slip very little and not be a "locking cam" (which I like for one sticking purposes because I feel that it will decrease the force applied to my body in the event of a fall). I feel confident that the cam will stop my descent after some slippage without me tending the tag end. Now with the other mystery rope I fell that it will stop my descent but with more slippage even without tending the tag end. That being said even when rappelling with this smaller rope on an "8" I have to double wrap it for enough friction. So, when I rappel using the safeguard and the smaller rope i use an autoblock on the tag end to create more friction on the rope. Buuuuuutttt it seems to me that if I let my autoblock hold too much of the load than the Safeguard wont cam over and stop the descent so then I have to let the autoblock hold even more load to stop the descent. Then it's hard to break my auto block to start moving again and then I fall some before the Safeguard takes over again. I think it has to do with the way the cam pinches the rope against the anvil. That may explain why they dont recommend an autoblock on the tag end because it decreases the cams ability to pinch the rope. Now that may only apply because I am using a rope that is a few mm out of spec.
 
Brocky said:
Would the Safeguard grab if the rope wasn’t hanging down from it, if the end of the tether was caught by a branch?
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This question had me thinking so I went down and did a quick test. With the Safeguard loaded and cammed, introducing slack line from the tag end as you described will not uncam the device. It remains locked until the release lever is pulled or the weight on the carabiner is removed. FWIW the rope in use here is 9mm Canyon Elite (Dano's camo version).

I also tried starting with the Safeguard uncammed and then applying tension to the bridge carabiner with a slack line above as shown in the picture. Pulling down on the bridge carabiner immediately cams the device over and locks it even with slack on the tag end as it pivots about the central rivet (the silver dot in the middle of the Safeguard) when loaded.

That said, in use I don't ever load the device (i.e. initially lean back onto my rappel rope) without tending the tag end with my brake hand first. Also, I would NEVER pull the lever without tending the free end with my brake hand. That would be a quick trip to the ground. However, I am confident given the geometry of the device that releasing the lever will always pull the cam closed resulting in a stop.

The issue would be, in the moment of free fall panic from an unintended brake hand release, is that you grab on harder to the lever to try to stop yourself rather than letting go. This is why the Grigri+ has the panic mode. When you pull the lever too hard (as in a panic situation) the lever disengages from the cam and allows the cam to close on its own. This is effectively exactly the same effect as letting go of the handle on the Safeguard in an emergency. The reason its safer is that you don't need to remember the only way to safely stop is to let go, the exact opposite reflex response your body is trying to enact while you're in freefall.

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boyne bowhunter said:
This question had me thinking so I went down and did a quick test. With the Safeguard loaded and cammed, introducing slack line from the tag end as you described will not uncam the device. It remains locked until the release lever is pulled or the weight on the carabiner is removed. FWIW the rope in use here is 9mm Canyon Elite (Dano's camo version).

I also tried starting with the Safeguard uncammed and then applying tension to the bridge carabiner with a slack line above as shown in the picture. Pulling down on the bridge carabiner immediately cams the device over and locks it even with slack on the tag end as it pivots about the central rivet (the silver dot in the middle of the Safeguard) when loaded.

That said, in use I don't ever load the device (i.e. initially lean back onto my rappel rope) without tending the tag end with my brake hand first. Also, I would NEVER pull the lever without tending the free end with my brake hand. That would be a quick trip to the ground. However, I am confident given the geometry of the device that releasing the lever will always pull the cam closed resulting in a stop.

The issue would be, in the moment of free fall panic from an unintended brake hand release, is that you grab on harder to the lever to try to stop yourself rather than letting go. This is why the Grigri+ has the panic mode. When you pull the lever too hard (as in a panic situation) the lever disengages from the cam and allows the cam to close on its own. This is effectively exactly the same effect as letting go of the handle on the Safeguard in an emergency. The reason its safer is that you don't need to remember the only way to safely stop is to let go, the exact opposite reflex response your body is trying to enact while you're in freefall.

View attachment 79168
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I thought about this all day also, so I went home and setup the same thing, only with 8mm Restech. No slippage whatsoever.
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I'm not an expert, nor an engineer, nor recommending anything, yada, yada, yada... llistening to me will get you killed, etc, etc.

As I sit here playing with this device and fiddling with it in my hands, it seems to me that by design it cannot allow rope to freely flow through it if there is any downward pressure on the carabiner (from your body weight). When I start unweighted, and massage the device to force it into release position, and start slipping rope through, the split second I add any weight to my saddle the biner pulls down on the two black brackets (for lack of a better term) such that the cam "automatically" locks on the rope.

It really seems like I could saw off the handle while fully open and the rest of the cam will re-engage with the rope (assuming there is downward pressure on the biner). The only thing holding the cam open was my hand holding the lever open. The rest of the camming device does not want to stay open when there is downward pressure on the biner.

Now this whole "lower auto block might not allow stretch and break the device" thing is harder to work thorugh. I'm skeptical, but I'll keep thinking about it.

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TNSTAAFL said:
Now this whole "lower auto block might not allow stretch and break the device" thing is harder to work thorugh. I'm skeptical, but I'll keep thinking about it.

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I think if the lower autoblock prusik feeds up into the device, it has the potential to release both and cause a freefall. Im guessing by squeezing the top of the prusik and moving the madrock into the "release" position, which is all youre doing with that lever...just moving the device in relation to the rope
 
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