• The SH Membership has gone live. Only SH Members have access to post in the classifieds. All members can view the classifieds. Starting in 2020 only SH Members will be admitted to the annual hunting contest. Current members will need to follow these steps to upgrade: 1. Click on your username 2. Click on Account upgrades 3. Choose SH Member and purchase.
  • We've been working hard the past few weeks to come up with some big changes to our vendor policies to meet the changing needs of our community. Please see the new vendor rules here: Vendor Access Area Rules

The Dangers of Short Static Falls

Ok, one more question, I use a HSS lineman’s rope with a RP1. Does anyone know the diameter of the HSS lineman's rope? Also how often should you replace your ropes?
 
pesqimon said:
@redsquirrel I highly recommend we sticky this thread. Not only that, also that the text of this article be copied and pasted into a post here, since the link could get broken.

One of the more interesting things I gleaned from this is that dyneema does not take a dynamic shock very well. This applies to all the amsteel bridges that are being used. I may replace my amsteel bridge or at the very least not use it for any method (climbing or shooting) that introduces slack into the system.
Click to expand...
I put on a 4'oplux bridge with stopper knots. I used sterling TRC one long piece, I tied I Michoacan friction hitch on my bridge rope to a prusik on bridge loop, then closed the cord with a hunters bend. I had a Amstel bridge and was not comfortable with it. Same both sides. Adjustable length and position on the loop. Great.IMG_20210816_155615MP_1.jpg
 
Last edited:
DB4x4 said:
Ok so which scenario is worse? ...

1. You are standing on a stick. Only your tether is connected and you have 1' of slack in the system. The stick fails and gives way.

2. You are standing on a stick. Only your lineman belt is connected. The stick fails and gives way.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Friend of mine fell on sticks while connected. Stitches in his jaw and groin. Almost cut his femoral artery...
 
This has been a good discussion and I wanted to chime in concerning one sticking as that is my preferred method. I also want thoughts from you all that may be more knowledgeable on all of this.

I for one climb with both my tether and linemans rope. I climb a step or maybe two, depending on the situation, move my tether up and keep going until i'm on the top of my stick and finish moving tether up as high as I can. All this is done while also using my linemans rope. I find it easier to manipulate my tether when I have additional stability the the linemans rope affords me. I'm also keeping the linemans rope as snugged up as possible without hindering my climb. Once my tether is set and I sit down into the saddle again, I detach the linemans, move my stick, get my foot setup on the bottom step of the aider and re-attach my linemans quick and repeat.

My thoughts on this is that by using both, I'm greatly minimizing the risk of a free fall of any real distance on a slack tether. My guess is, as long as I'm using proper linemans technique and keeping just enough slack to allow me to climb, if something were to happen like the stick would come off the tree, I'd slip, or get punted off the aider, the first thing that will most likely happen is that the linemans is going to put me into the tree/stick first. and then I may slide down the tree/stick until the tether catches me. Sliding down the stick/tree is certainly not a great scenario, but its going to slow my fall and eliminate much of the risk of a free fall on the slack. That sound like a reasonable assessment?

I realize that the linemans is not a fall arrest device, but if you're using proper technique and minimizing the amount of slack you have in it, I have a hard time believing that it won't at the very least prevent you from hitting the ground. Most all trees we climb are "sticky" on these ropes and the geometry of how it will eventually work itself above you as you fall is going to slam you into the tree. With little slack in it, that "slam" into the tree, albeit not nice, isn't going to kill you. Most have seen the video of the lineman free falling down the pole. But to me, there was far and away too much slack in it, the guy was doing something really awkward and he went down a clean, slick pole. None of which any of us should find ourselves in that position.

Another thing that comes to mind in these discussions is that we are really talking about worse case scenarios and thats a good thing. However, I'm a bit more of a realist. Most of us are climbing sticks of some type and in some fashion. Most are on a linemans only, etc. If a stick kicks out and send you falling, what is typically the first instinctive thing a person does? Grabs/hugs the tree. Yep, I realize it happens so quick oftentimes and you may not react quick enough. I can say I had a stick kick out once on a linemans belt only years ago. I smashed into the tree and grabbed on for dear life. I ended up knee first into the stick below. Hurt like hell and I ruined a pair of underwear that day, but I was no worse for wear. I slide down the tree with the linemans dragging along a bit but catching and slowing me. The initial hit into the tree and me clawing and grabbing at the tree did more damage in that case.

I really feel that most everyone climbing sticks, whether its multiple or single should be using both tether and linemans. To me it makes no sense not to other than a small amount of speed lost. I for one feel safer knowing I have one device that will decelerate my fall and another that is going to stop it all together. Neither is going to be fun.

The other bit. ALL of the videos with methods, etc.. all they talk about is how fast and light it is, etc. Step one in my book is SLOW THE F DOWN and be deliberate and purposeful with every step.

As for the one sticking. All of these videos on Youtube of guys showing how to one stick, I think I might have seen one where the guy used his linemans too. I think its nuts and I cringe every time I see it.
 
After reading this and watching some youtube work harness safety test videos it comes down to this; avoid falls into your RCH or saddle with the same intensity as you would a fall to the ground and view any slack in any line as being as dangerous as not being connected at all.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Why learn JRB? Why not learn Ddrt or SRT? Always anchored to the tree as well and easier to learn.
Click to expand...
Not always but typically SRT involves mechanical devices. Also you have to tie an anchor for SRT, not needed for JRB. DRT is harder on your rope as it's a moving rope system so your rope is moving over a limb or crotch with your body weight on it. More friction to fight. Vs JRB is a stationary rope system. Less friction to fight in JRB, hitches are not weighted when moving. Garda hitch has a small amount of foot weight on it to keep the rope taught for moving, very little.
 
If youre climbing correctly you should never have slack in the line, part of the reason i ise JRB dual stationairy rope method to climb its virtually impossible to have slack in the line unless youre doing something extremely wrong.
 
The_Fit_Ness_Monster said:
As someone who switched from Drt and Srt to JRB i can tell you JRB is cheaper, easier and quieter.
Click to expand...
How is his system cheaper than 75’ of predator and that’s all? Everyone has their climbing methods and I get it but everything you mentioned is opinion. I’ve tried all 3 and I can say in my opinion SRT is much easier because of mechanical advantage, DDRT is much cheaper and I’ve never had an issue with noise on presets…
 
GetHomeSafe said:
Not always but typically SRT involves mechanical devices. Also you have to tie an anchor for SRT, not needed for JRB. DRT is harder on your rope as it's a moving rope system so your rope is moving over a limb or crotch with your body weight on it. More friction to fight. Vs JRB is a stationary rope system. Less friction to fight in JRB, hitches are not weighted when moving. Garda hitch has a small amount of foot weight on it to keep the rope taught for moving, very little.
Click to expand...
You are correct in that SRT would either involve a mechanical or at least the addition of a rope wrench. Tying an anchor is as quick and easy as tying or looping on the garda foot loop. As far as Ddrt more friction yes but that friction is also useful because it allows the friction hitch to break and move after being loaded. In my experience the friction hitch (or end of the climbing rope I use for a Blake’s wears out way faster than the climbing rope going across the bark. My current rope is on year 4 but I began using a split tail system so that I wasn’t replacing climbing line, only hitches. JRB will have this same issue unless you are buying high dollar heat friction cord which would also last longer on other rope systems. Also if you use a self tending hitch while you climb Ddrt, you never have slack in your system of any amount. In JRB’s system you have slack every time you stand into the garda foot loop. He does his best to conceal that by quickly adjusting both hitches at the top of his standing move but his bridge(s) drops every single time, and that means slack. Yes it’s a redundant system. But the knots are harder to tie than traditional climbing knots and the method isn’t endorsed by any manufacturer or climbing instruction institutions. His system of no knots at the tree only work on trees with ideal crotch clearances otherwise you are tying those knots in the dark at the tree. That plays a factor in my mind every time I see a video because for every one tree with a perfect crotch, I find 10 spots with tight crotch trees. I am glad you guys like the climbing system. It’s important to feel safe and familiar with how you get up the tree, but in my opinion that system is not something that should be taught to new or barely seasoned rope climbers over the internet… it’s far too complicated and “evolved” for that
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
How is his system cheaper than 75’ of predator and that’s all? Everyone has their climbing methods and I get it but everything you mentioned is opinion. I’ve tried all 3 and I can say in my opinion SRT is much easier because of mechanical advantage, DDRT is much cheaper and I’ve never had an issue with noise on presets…
Click to expand...
I digress, its much cheaper than SRT bc you dont need the mechanical devices. DRT is the cheapest bc all you need is like you said 1 line of rope, but DRT falls short in that you “have” to isolate a branch, and the biggest flag, the fact that the rope is moving over a crotch every stroke of the climb is a huge NO GO for me. Jrb solves all of those problems. stationary rope, doesnt matter if you isolate a single branch or many, tying the hitches can seem overwhelming to some but they are actually extremely easy to tie and inspect. And as you said most if my opinion, ive used all 3, and when looking at these 3 methods taking into account cost, ease, quietness. JRB checks all those boxes where the other 2 fall short. The only good thing for SRT is how easy the actual climb is but the whole point for some is to not have all that metal in a climbing system. With that said if i were 200+ lbs i woukd probably opt for SRT for ease of climb but id imagine JRB can do well at higher body weights also. DRT was a little “work” even at my 155#. My biggest atta boy is that we have methods now that bring us away from climbers or the one i could never wrap my head around which is sticks. All the rope methods to me are much safer which is a big box check.
 
I do SRT with JRB hitches all the time now. However, I ended up using a ropeman for the foot loop because it just tends so easily. I've not been able to get the various flavors of JRB hitches to tend any where near as effortlessly as the ropeman. Either way, SRT is absolutely doable with JRB hitches and no mechanical devices other than the carabiners. I rappel using a mini-eight too, so that's a little more metal in the system. :)

If you can or want to hunt from your climbing line you could eliminate the carabiners too. Just tie into your bridge connection and foot loop. I've done this test climbing in my yard. You just break both hitches to rappel down. In a sense its like managing two autoblocks on the line. Or just untie the foot loop then break the bridge hitch and rappel managing the tag like you would normally. Not recommending this, just making the point of what's possible. SRT/JRB can be done without metal if you want to go there.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
How is his system cheaper than 75’ of predator and that’s all? Everyone has their climbing methods and I get it but everything you mentioned is opinion. I’ve tried all 3 and I can say in my opinion SRT is much easier because of mechanical advantage, DDRT is much cheaper and I’ve never had an issue with noise on presets…
Click to expand...
I am 69. And I can JRB with ease. If you can stand up, sit down, and raise your arms, you can JRB. How much easier do you need it? Cost, either one needs rope. SRT typically uses expensive active mechanical devices which you forgot to mention and include in the cost comparison. Easier... For SRT you have to get your rope up and over a crotch or limb , same as JRB. Plus for SRT you have to tie your anchor... Not needed for JRB. Then you have to attach your mechanicals to the SRT rope. While you doing all that for SRT your already climbing in JRB. I am missing how SRT is easier. You'd have to explain that thought process in detail to help me understand.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
You are correct in that SRT would either involve a mechanical or at least the addition of a rope wrench. Tying an anchor is as quick and easy as tying or looping on the garda foot loop. As far as Ddrt more friction yes but that friction is also useful because it allows the friction hitch to break and move after being loaded. In my experience the friction hitch (or end of the climbing rope I use for a Blake’s wears out way faster than the climbing rope going across the bark. My current rope is on year 4 but I began using a split tail system so that I wasn’t replacing climbing line, only hitches. JRB will have this same issue unless you are buying high dollar heat friction cord which would also last longer on other rope systems. Also if you use a self tending hitch while you climb Ddrt, you never have slack in your system of any amount. In JRB’s system you have slack every time you stand into the garda foot loop. He does his best to conceal that by quickly adjusting both hitches at the top of his standing move but his bridge(s) drops every single time, and that means slack. Yes it’s a redundant system. But the knots are harder to tie than traditional climbing knots and the method isn’t endorsed by any manufacturer or climbing instruction institutions. His system of no knots at the tree only work on trees with ideal crotch clearances otherwise you are tying those knots in the dark at the tree. That plays a factor in my mind every time I see a video because for every one tree with a perfect crotch, I find 10 spots with tight crotch trees. I am glad you guys like the climbing system. It’s important to feel safe and familiar with how you get up the tree, but in my opinion that system is not something that should be taught to new or barely seasoned rope climbers over the internet… it’s far too complicated and “evolved” for that
Click to expand...
Well good to have debate and hear your thoughts. At 69 I would not call the hip thrust in DRT easy by any stretch of the imagination. Slack, yes your bridge may or may not get some slack in it. It depends on your upward move. For me, I have my arms up and my hands on the bottom of my hitches while sitting. When I push down and back to stand up to the apex, for a moment. My hands are pushing my hitches up at the same moment in time that I am making that momentary standing move. The movement of the hitches and the leg straighting are the same moment in time. If you wish you can do what your mentioning, that is stand, then move one hitch then the other hitch. But for me that is both harder and slower.
Crotches, you boat clip (the clip is attached to the end of your rope) the hitch to the end of your rope. So if you pull it up and it does not want to pass thru. Typically if you back off a few inches, flick your wrist to wave roll the rope, and then pull it will pass thru. In two seasons I have never tied those knots at the tree, not once. It's sure not been a big issue for me.
Wearing out hitches... I am climbing 8mm rescue tech with 7mm sterling accessory cord. Between all my hunts last season and this season the hitches show no detectable amount of wear. As you know you don't rappel on them. They are very loose and move down with a few ounces of pressure once broken. Not hard to break either.
Hard to learn and tie. The average person can easily do it. You can pause rewind the video a hundred times if you want. And you tie them in the comfort of home. You test them at ground level.
Like conversely SRT is something you just undertake on your own because it's so easy... Not.
I think we'll agree to disagree. That works.
 
Last edited:
Yeah.that s
The_Fit_Ness_Monster said:
I digress, its much cheaper than SRT bc you dont need the mechanical devices. DRT is the cheapest bc all you need is like you said 1 line of rope, but DRT falls short in that you “have” to isolate a branch, and the biggest flag, the fact that the rope is moving over a crotch every stroke of the climb is a huge NO GO for me. Jrb solves all of those problems. stationary rope, doesnt matter if you isolate a single branch or many, tying the hitches can seem overwhelming to some but they are actually extremely easy to tie and inspect. And as you said most if my opinion, ive used all 3, and when looking at these 3 methods taking into account cost, ease, quietness. JRB checks all those boxes where the other 2 fall short. The only good thing for SRT is how easy the actual climb is but the whole point for some is to not have all that metal in a climbing system. With that said if i were 200+ lbs i woukd probably opt for SRT for ease of climb but id imagine JRB can do well at higher body weights also. DRT was a little “work” even at my 155#. My biggest atta boy is that we have methods now that bring us away from climbers or the one i could never wrap my head around which is sticks. All the rope methods to me are much safer which is a big box check.
Click to expand...
Yeah.that stix thing
 
The_Fit_Ness_Monster said:
I digress, its much cheaper than SRT bc you dont need the mechanical devices. DRT is the cheapest bc all you need is like you said 1 line of rope, but DRT falls short in that you “have” to isolate a branch, and the biggest flag, the fact that the rope is moving over a crotch every stroke of the climb is a huge NO GO for me. Jrb solves all of those problems. stationary rope, doesnt matter if you isolate a single branch or many, tying the hitches can seem overwhelming to some but they are actually extremely easy to tie and inspect. And as you said most if my opinion, ive used all 3, and when looking at these 3 methods taking into account cost, ease, quietness. JRB checks all those boxes where the other 2 fall short. The only good thing for SRT is how easy the actual climb is but the whole point for some is to not have all that metal in a climbing system. With that said if i were 200+ lbs i woukd probably opt for SRT for ease of climb but id imagine JRB can do well at higher body weights also. DRT was a little “work” even at my 155#. My biggest atta boy is that we have methods now that bring us away from climbers or the one i could never wrap my head around which is sticks. All the rope methods to me are much safer which is a big box check.
Click to expand...
Yo
GetHomeSafe said:
I am 69. And I can JRB with ease. If you can stand up, sit down, and raise your arms, you can JRB. How much easier do you need it? Cost, either one needs rope. SRT typically uses expensive active mechanical devices which you forgot to mention and include in the cost comparison. Easier... For SRT you have to get your rope up and over a crotch or limb , same as JRB. Plus for SRT you have to tie your anchor... Not needed for JRB. Then you have to attach your mechanicals to the SRT rope. While you doing all that for SRT your already climbing in JRB. I am missing how SRT is easier. You'd have to explain that thought process in detail to help me understand.
Click to expand...
Ddrt is 75’ of predator rope no mechanicals needed. That’s as cheap as it gets.
SRT can be done with mechanicals but $100 for a belay device isn’t that bad. Other than that it’s a friction hitch and an additional pulley. Further more you could save $35 on rope by only using 40’ instead of 75 or 80. The distance difference can be made up with 50’ of paracord which is like $5. So the cost isn’t that different which you add all the additional hitch cord you need for his system.
If I’m climbing SRT, and I “tie” in a basal anchor, I can throw on a gri gri and a hand ascender as quickly as you tie in a garda foot loop. If I’m performing a canopy anchor it takes a few seconds longer to whip it up there but the mechanical is so much quicker than sit, stand advance, sit stand advance on hitches that I see that as a time wash.
Look I am only saying with JRB you are using hitches that aren’t tested or approved by any climbing institution orcertified instructor. The system is not a simple system and unless you hit the perfect smooth wide crotch, you’ll be tying those knots in the dark in the woods. Otherwise you’re severely limited on tree selection. I just don’t see any of the “advantages” over simple traditional rope climbing methods. Even descending now are you going down the same way you climb up or are you tying in a super Munter? (Which means you’re tying more knots in the woods which his claims are you don’t do using the system)like I said I don’t see any advantages for cost, ease of use, and the only “advantage” in safety is redundant tie in but you can do that while SRT climbing with a hitch above the mechanical and with Ddrt if my hitch messed up for whatever reason, I could still lower myself to the ground using arm strength and my tie in point as additional friction (because half my weight is supported by the friction over the crotch). Again the perception of his system as superior is just not there for me.
Anyway sorry to off track a great post about dangers of falling. I will not reply further if you guys would like we can PM to continue talking on the advantage of different rope climbing methods. Hope everyone had a safe thanksgiving
 
Last edited:
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Yo

Ddrt is 75’ of predator rope no mechanicals needed. That’s as cheap as it gets.
SRT can be done with mechanicals but $100 for a belay device isn’t that bad. Other than that it’s a friction hitch and an additional pulley. Further more you could save $35 on rope by only using 40’ instead of 75 or 80. The distance difference can be made up with 50’ of paracord which is like $5. So the cost isn’t that different which you add all the additional hitch cord you need for his system.
If I’m climbing SRT, and I “tie” in a basal anchor, I can throw on a gri gri and a hand ascender as quickly as you tie in a garda foot loop. If I’m performing a canopy anchor it takes a few seconds longer to whip it up there but the mechanical is so much quicker than sit, stand advance, sit stand advance on hitches that I see that as a time wash.
Look I am only saying with JRB you are using hitches that aren’t tested or approved by any climbing institution orcertified instructor. The system is not a simple system and unless you hit the perfect smooth wide crotch, you’ll be tying those knots in the dark in the woods. Otherwise you’re severely limited on tree selection. I just don’t see any of the “advantages” over simple traditional rope climbing methods. Even descending now are you going down the same way you climb up or are you tying in a super Munter? (Which means you’re tying more knots in the woods which his claims are you don’t do using the system)like I said I don’t see any advantages for cost, ease of use, and the only “advantage” in safety is redundant tie in but you can do that while SRT climbing with a hitch above the mechanical and with Ddrt if my hitch messed up for whatever reason, I could still lower myself to the ground using arm strength and my tie in point as additional friction (because half my weight is supported by the friction over the crotch). Again the perception of his system as superior is just not there for me.
Anyway sorry to off track a great post about dangers of falling. I will not reply further if you guys would like we can PM to continue talking on the advantage of different rope climbing methods. Hope everyone had a safe thanksgiving
Click to expand...
My guess is you have never built a JRB system and you have never climbed JRB. So now your a self pro-claimed expert in a rope climbing system you have zero experience in. But you trying to convince those of us with hundreds of hours of experience with the system that your "expert" opinion out weighs all of ours. Those of us who built are own system and have used it extensively. But you know more about the system you never built or used because you what, have video expertise. Really? Please tell me I am wrong and that you built and used it extensively to reach your informed position.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top