Thoughts on My First Year "Trophy Hunting"

[Nutterbuster]

This .

I will admit I've fell victim to the super smart old deer talk some of the popular "hunting experts" have to preach to keep there popularity alive. This thread has helped me open my mind which is what I think old nutter is trying to get across.

If one hunters shifts their thinking from, "I've been hunting here for years and I just can't get on deer...I need to hunt smarter" to "I've been hunting here for years and I just can't get on deer...screw this place" then I'm happy.

A reasonably intelligent adult, who can hunt once or twice a week throughout the season, and who has 4+ seasons under their belt (if a college degree can be obtained in that amount of time there's no way learning to hunt should be harder) on average should be able to kill what's there to kill. Maybe not every year. But when I read about people hunting places for years, going on decades, and asking for help "figuring it out" I can only assume they're chasing stuff that ain't there or they'd need to stand on a stepstool to raise their IQ.

Or they're more interested in eating at the Waffle House in full camo than hunting.

 

[mattsteg]

I just can't get on deer...I need to hunt smarter"

There's a whole lotta "how to hunt smarter" in the post that started this thread. Let's not underestimate the mediocrity of the average hunter. There's no magic, and people might chase nonexistent genius in place of actually hunting smarter - but there are a lot of people consistently making choices that aren't "smart".

 

[Jtaylor]

A mature public land buck once turned and went the other way after coming across my ground scent from where i walked in 8 hours earlier.

I agree with ya here too. There's no way I can wrap my head around deer not learning from their mistakes. Simply being in the right place at the right time for years can't be the only thing at play here..

 

[LAKY]

People are getting hung up on the words "smart" or "intelligent". If those make you feel uncomfortable, use "conditioned" instead. I think everyone can agree on that. And, I think everyone can also agree that behavioral conditioning can be different based on the area and stimuli presented. These are just facts, plain and simple.

To take it one step further, conditioning can in some cases affect future generations to an extent that removing a certain stimulus or factor can take generations to remove the behavior that it caused.

 

[swampdonkey]

I agree with ya here too. There's no way I can wrap my head around deer not learning from their mistakes. Simply being in the right place at the right time for years can't be the only thing at play here..

Learning entails intelligence. Some deer have a higher IQ for lack of a better term (more intelligence) than other deer. No different than how some humans are dumb as rocks and some are brilliant. I don’t think Einstein just stumbled onto his theories by dumb luck just like i don’t believe mature bucks end up bedding on the one dry muskrat hut in a sea of featureless cattails surrounded by knee deep water. He is there because he chose to be there.

No reason to conclude there isn’t natural variance in the intelligence of different deer same as there are in humans. My money is on those mature bucks reaching 4-5+ years on pressured public land being blessed with a higher IQ than the rest of the deer in the herd. A lot of what they do is based on that intelligence not simple luck or being in the right place at the right time for years on end.

That buck that caught my ground scent wasn’t lucky he was using his brain to determine how big a threat my scent was to his existence. He didn’t just turn and bolt when he hit it. He stopped dead nuts where i walked and spent a minute or two sniffing where i walked without taking another step. He then alternated between slowly scanning the woods ahead of him and putting his nose to the air to figure out where i was. He was on high alert the whole time but under total control as well he wasn’t panicked looking just alert and concerned looking. He appeared very methodical as this went on for 10 minutes without him taking a step. Once he apparently decided it wasn’t worth it he turned and snuck away with his head low and tail down. He moved off deliberately but silently and just vanished into the woods. This was NOT him just making the right decision by sheer luck nor was it him just being in the right place because he was bigger and stronger than other because he was coming along the same trail as the 6 inferior deer ahead of him. He was just behaving VERY differently in that same area and it’s the reason he lived that day.

Nuts starts truly hunting big trophy deer instead of killing 20 baby deer a year he will observe how differently they behave sooner or later i have no doubt.

 

[mattsteg]

That buck that caught my ground scent wasn’t lucky he was using his brain to determine how big a threat my scent was to his existence.

Or he was just naturally cautious, or smelled a person and then had a bad experience in the past. Heck even a good dog can follow a pretty old scent trail and maybe even figure out what way the critter was going, and deer have more going on in their nose than dogs. He knew without thought that you weren't RIGHT there. You've probably seen hundreds of other deer sense something wrong, go on alert, and sense their way out of things, but because they weren't big bucks you didn't note it.

"Deer smelling something dangerous and sneaking away" isn't groundbreaking thought - and it's the sort of thing you should be prepared for, paying attention to and planning for as best is feasible REGARDLESS of whether you're hunting for a trophy bambi fur coat or for antlers on the wall.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Deer smelling something dangerous and sneaking away" isn't groundbreaking thought - and it's the sort of thing you should be prepared for, paying attention to and planning for as best is feasible REGARDLESS of whether you're hunting for a trophy bambi fur coat or for antlers on the wall.

Since we love anecdotal evidence so much...

I have witnessed spikes and does lay down flat with their chin on the ground to let hunters walk within yards of them.

I've also watched spikes hit ground scent and react like their nose hit a live wire.

First deer I ever killed was a doe accompanied by another doe and a spotted fawn. I was maybe 6 or 7. I had never shot a scoped rifle before and missed the first couple of shots because I couldn't make the eye relief work. Amazingly, they stuck around until one caught a stray bullet. Each time I shot the does would pick up their heads for a second and go back to eating. The spotty would RUN off the plot, look over its shoulder, and wonder why in heck mom and ahn-tee was still standing there. She'd SLOWLY tiptoe back to mom with her head down like a whipped dog. I'm convinced that deer died of old age.

Maybe I'll be shocked and amazed after this year. But over the course of chasing everything from fish to alligators to waterfowl to squirrels to hogs to deer...I've never felt that the struggle was out-thinking them unless I let myself listen to people selling that line.

 

[swampdonkey]

Or he was just naturally cautious, or smelled a person and then had a bad experience in the past. Heck even a good dog can follow a pretty old scent trail and maybe even figure out what way the critter was going, and deer have more going on in their nose than dogs. He knew without thought that you weren't RIGHT there. You've probably seen hundreds of other deer sense something wrong, go on alert, and sense their way out of things, but because they weren't big bucks you didn't note it.

"Deer smelling something dangerous and sneaking away" isn't groundbreaking thought - and it's the sort of thing you should be prepared for, paying attention to and planning for as best is feasible REGARDLESS of whether you're hunting for a trophy bambi fur coat or for antlers on the wall.

Everything i’ve said flew right over your head. ”or smelled a person and then had a bad experience in the past” THEN ADJUSTED HIS BEHAVIOR based on that prior bad experience. That’s the very definition of learning.

Pay attention to how i said the Buck acted differently than the first 6 deer who just traipsed right past my scent trail. I’ve ALSO seen hundreds of mature does act similarly and have made mental notes of them as well. I’ve spent more time simply OBSERVING deer behavior being this will be my 32nd season bowhunting than most guys on this thread have been alive. I’m no rookie this deer hunting thing isn’t new to me as it obviously is to a lot of guys here. My kill count is well over 100 deer at this point. Imagine in those 32 years how many deer i’ve simply observed being 1. a bowhunter and 2. not a baby deer killer killing the first 50 lb deer to walk by meaning i’ve let hundreds of deer just go about their business while i just sat there and watched while paying attention to what they were doing. Just let all those experiences sink into your brain for a moment and then pay attention.

Or, just do as you’re doing convinced mature bucks are the same as those baby deer Nuts slaughters on a daily basis and then wonder why the biggest buck you’ve ever killed barely topped 100”.

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make em drink.

 

[Jtaylor]

Or he was just naturally cautious, or smelled a person and then had a bad experience in the past.

This is basically the definition of learning. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/learning

 

[swampdonkey]

Since we love anecdotal evidence so much...

I have witnessed spikes and does lay down flat with their chin on the ground to let hunters walk within yards of them

To this, i call 100% BS to spikes laying their chins flat on the ground to allow hunters walk within yards while an admitted baby deer killer was able to sit an observe the whole incident.

There is no way this happened. Definitely time for me to bow out of this thread as it’s getting more and more ridiculous. Starting to remind me of my facebook days listening to baby deer killers make up fantastical stories to support their theories

But i will say, i hope you kill a Stud Buck this year as i hope all hunters do. Even those hard headed amateurs who know it all after their 10th season.

 

[Nutterbuster]

To this, i call 100% BS to spikes laying their chins flat on the ground to allow hunters walk within yards while an admitted baby deer killer was able to sit an observe the whole incident.

There is no way this happened. Definitely time for me to bow out of this thread as it’s getting more and more ridiculous. Starting to remind me of my facebook days listening to baby deer killers make up fantastical stories to support their theories

But i will say, i hope you kill a Stud Buck this year as i hope all hunters do. Even those hard headed amateurs who know it all after their 10th season.

You can believe what you'd like. It's quite possible to observe deer and hunters when you're 30-40ft up a pine in a young cutover. I've also watched deer lay down to avoid me as I walked through the woods in the dark with my headlamp on. They'd have been perfectly hidden if not for eye shine.

But while we're calling people on their BS, before you leave can I pretty-please get that research you did on Alabama antler size? I'd love to know where there are "PLENTY" of 125" deer here.

 

[LAKY]

@Nutterbuster and @swampdonkey Y'all are talking about animals with completely different experiences that shaped their conditioned responses.

 

[mattsteg]

Since we love anecdotal evidence so much...

I have witnessed spikes and does lay down flat with their chin on the ground to let hunters walk within yards of them.

I've also watched spikes hit ground scent and react like their nose hit a live wire.

First deer I ever killed was a doe accompanied by another doe and a spotted fawn. I was maybe 6 or 7. I had never shot a scoped rifle before and missed the first couple of shots because I couldn't make the eye relief work. Amazingly, they stuck around until one caught a stray bullet. Each time I shot the does would pick up their heads for a second and go back to eating. The spotty would RUN off the plot, look over its shoulder, and wonder why in heck mom and ahn-tee was still standing there. She'd SLOWLY tiptoe back to mom with her head down like a whipped dog. I'm convinced that deer died of old age.

Maybe I'll be shocked and amazed after this year. But over the course of chasing everything from fish to alligators to waterfowl to squirrels to hogs to deer...I've never felt that the struggle was out-thinking them unless I let myself listen to people selling that line.

First deer I ever missed snuck right up under my stand in the middle of a windstorm, didn't look perturbed at all, and took off like a shot when I made the rookie move of cocking the hammer on the ol' 30-30. The second deer I ever missed calmly walked in a circle maybe 60 yards away from me while I shot at it 4 times. I blame the scope but the stand setup was a really stupid one - like sitting on the tip of a diving board cocked-up at 45 degrees and I may have just sucked at shooting (in reality it was a terrible scope mount that would never hold a zero and got thrown out soon after). Neither deer was particularly old. They acted much differently.

Everything i’ve said flew right over your head. ”or smelled a person and then had a bad experience in the past” THEN ADJUSTED HIS BEHAVIOR based on that prior bad experience. That’s the very definition of learning.

No one's claiming that deer never learn anything in their entire lives - that fawns emerge from the womb fully formed.

There's a significant difference between being smart and being trained. Obviously at some point deer learn/implant what's normal in their world, what isn't, and things that signify danger, or just adopt habits for reasons long-since forgotten.

 

[swampdonkey]

you leave can I pretty-please get that research you did on Alabama antler size? I'd love to know where there are "PLENTY" of 125" deer here.

The internet.

Simply google no Boone and crockett Alabama Deer, P&Y Bucks Alabama, etc. That's all i did and found hundreds of pictures of huge Alabama bucks, stories, photos, hunter names magazine articles, you name it. Many of these bucks were in the 170-180 range and were killed with every legal weapon imaginable.

I refuse to believe all these bucks were killed in managed high fence deer farms in Alabama. Sure, some were, or killed on great private properties but some were also killed on good old Alabama public.

Good luck on your journey to becoming more of a trophy buck killer if that’s your goal, i mean that.

 

[swampdonkey]

No one's claiming that deer never learn anything in their entire lives - that fawns emerge from the womb fully formed.

There most definitely are people making those types of claims. Saying essentially deer get big more from dumb luck than making decisions off things they’ve learned to keep themselves alive.

 

[Nutterbuster]

The internet.

Simply google no Boone and crockett Alabama Deer, P&Y Bucks Alabama, etc. That's all i did and found hundreds of pictures of huge Alabama bucks, stories, photos, hunter names magazine articles, you name it. Many of these bucks were in the 170-180 range and were killed with every legal weapon imaginable.

I refuse to believe all these bucks were killed in managed high fence deer farms in Alabama. Sure, some were, or killed on great private properties but some were also killed on good old Alabama public.

Good luck on your journey to becoming more of a trophy buck killer if that’s your goal, i mean that.

With research skills like you have there's obviously nothing I can add to your knowledge base.

Good luck to you this year. If you ever get tired of hunting that barren Wisconsin area you can stay at my place and use that big ole wrinkle brain to kill the 170's us bama boys are too dumb to find. We get 3 tags a year. No antler restrictions so if you see a little 125", 2.5yo buck you can take him too and not worry about ending your season early.

 

[mattsteg]

There most definitely are people making those types of claims. Saying essentially deer get big more from dumb luck than making decisions off things they’ve learned to keep themselves alive.

Deer making "decisions"? They're not deep-thinking philosophers. How much of a deer's life do you think is driven by conscious decisions rather than following a pattern and reacting?

Pay attention to how i said the Buck acted differently than the first 6 deer who just traipsed right past my scent trail. I’ve ALSO seen hundreds of mature does act similarly and have made mental notes of them as well. I’ve spent more time simply OBSERVING deer behavior being this will be my 32nd season bowhunting than most guys on this thread have been alive.

You do realize that you'd have seen the exact same thing if say 3% of deer are naturally cautious and 1/3 of those (1% of the herd) grow to ripe old age. 97% of the deer you'd see would still be the the "stupid" ones - regardless of how much is "learned" vs "innate".

What do you think that deer are "learning"?

I figure that they absolutely refine their daily pattern from day to day and year to year (we know pretty clearly that deer can be quite habitual - whether from deer showing up the same place/time every year, deer continuing to follow a "treeline" trail for years after the trees are gone, or whatever), and by the time they get old, that pattern's probably pretty darn good. This isn't because they pulled out OnX and a topo map, dropped a bunch of pins, went out and scouted potential spots, and decided "this looks great" - it's because they stumbled upon a decent pattern that let them grow old, and maybe changed things a bit over time in response to changes. Is that "learning"? Or is it just "what I did yesterday got me to today so I'll do it again" where the pattern is the memory.

Are they learning elaborate tactical evasive techniques? That seems a lot less likely. They have their playbook, they have a vastly different sensory experience than us, and they play to that. Some are better at it than others. How much is learned and when? I dunno. How much is individual "personality"? I dunno.

We construct these elaborate tactics that big bucks use - and I think that a lot of the time these are a lot simpler in the deer's world. None of this makes big bucks any easier to kill, but there's a difference between an animal that's "like every other deer, but more so" vs "a completely different animal".

Is a deer that's lucked on to a really good pattern and is naturally skittish/averse to people any different than some super deer that's learned elite human avoidance tactics in terms of how you'd approach him?

 

[HuntNorthEast]

I feel like a ton of y'all are completely missing @Nutterbuster's point.

He's not saying old bucks act just like fawns, or that you hunt them the same. He's not saying that you just pass on a couple of fawns and next thing you know a Booner's walking out. He's not saying that you can just waltz out anywhere in WI and collect a mature buck, easy as hitting up a grocery store.

He's talking about scouting, finding areas with big buck sign, looking for the best available habitat localish to him, with low hunting pressure, spending more time traveling/scouting and less time sitting...in short doing things differently than he has been to target rarer examples of the same species. The vast majority of hunters aren't doing this.

He's postulating that deer don't get fundamentally smarter once they've made it to adulthood. They still have the same basic needs, and still use the same basic strategies and senses to meet those needs.

How much of the differences we observe in mature buck behavior are from the "smarter" ones (or ones with an overall more cautious or disciplined personality - or even ones that luck into the right territory) surviving longer, or from the dominant deer just having more ability to dictate terms and choose the best habitat? How much are from gaining relatively simple lessons due to past close scrapes?

Without e.g. years of tracking data on the same deer...it's tough to make an evidence-backed assertion of old deer becoming dramatically smarter with age. Could just be that those that have or develop those habits in their youth are the ones that get old in the first place. Maybe that difference doesn't really matter - either way you can end up with an animal that's a lot harder to kill - but a lot of the behaviors that we attribute to complex though processes...are probably a lot simpler in the mind of the deer performing them.

MSU Deer Labs did a tagging and tracking program, if you haven't seen it, I know some of it is on Instagram and it is insane to see. To add to your point, people blame a deer's skillset to lack of their own.

Looking at these tracking maps it shows that from mature buck to mature buck, not much changes. Summer range, fall (rut) range, and their transitions. Every study, the mature bucks hold a very specific pattern and route annually. Every study was done from 2-4 years and had plenty of data to back this up.

There are outliers. People sometimes catch these bucks on those outliers whether it be with weapon or on camera. Then they think the buck is smart due to the lack of sightings and "night time movement". The hard facts and data show that the deer isn't out smarting you, you just weren't smart enough to figure out you're in the wrong place, at a very wrong time. People will sometimes kill these bucks in those areas by using previous years camera data and hunting 3 or 4 days around those sightings the following year to "beat the deer to the camera". Moral of the story is, space out and find his actual summer and fall range. Don't get hung up on that one midnight trailcam pic.

Most of the time we think too much and put ourselves in a pattern instead of solving the puzzle. Branch out, solve the puzzle, and kill the buck. Anyone can do it if they put in the boot time and homework. You know how I know this? Been there done that. Scouting the same area 100x and shuffling cameras won't make the buck magically appear. Jumping to the piece across the road, or two miles away across multiple roads, may land him right in your lap. Figure him out, put in the time, execute.

 

[HuntNorthEast]

To this, i call 100% BS to spikes laying their chins flat on the ground to allow hunters walk within yards while an admitted baby deer killer was able to sit an observe the whole incident.

There is no way this happened. Definitely time for me to bow out of this thread as it’s getting more and more ridiculous. Starting to remind me of my facebook days listening to baby deer killers make up fantastical stories to support their theories

But i will say, i hope you kill a Stud Buck this year as i hope all hunters do. Even those hard headed amateurs who know it all after their 10th season.

I can also attest to young bucks laying flat. You actually see it the most in young deer from fawn size up. That's a fawns #1 defense combined with camo. If anything, they haven't mastered finding good hiding spots yet and get caught in the open and go back to that infancy mentality of lay flat. I have also seen big bucks "crawl" through thickets to keep a low profile, I've seen big bucks lay in water to the point just the spine and head are sticking out surrounded by iron brush, etc.

 

[swampdonkey]

I can also attest to young bucks laying flat. You actually see it the most in young deer from fawn size up. That's a fawns #1 defense combined with camo. If anything, they haven't mastered finding good hiding spots yet and get caught in the open and go back to that infancy mentality of lay flat. I have also seen big bucks "crawl" through thickets to keep a low profile, I've seen big bucks lay in water to the point just the spine and head are sticking out surrounded by iron brush, etc.

Spike Bucks aren’t fawns with spots curled up in the grass.