Why do I fall apart at distance?

[raisins]

Thank you! Let's dive into that! How does G Fred Asbell show?

Funny thing is that I'm basically instinctive (imagine where I need to align vertically based on what my mind says the trajectory will be) out to 20yds. Then at 20 I start to use an actual aiming method from there to 30yds. At 20yds, the tip of my arrow equates to point of impact. After 20 though I have to institute a holdover with a gap that progresses as I walk backward.

He advocates doing it like throwing a baseball, meaning do it over and over until a fluid thing becomes precise.

burn a hole in the target
ignore the arrow
do a swing draw from the hip
bend knees and bend forward as you draw
use a very open stance so you can't hit your arm and with a light arm bend
bend head down as you come to anchor (you're kind of crunching everything up like a tiger pouncing....knees, hips, neck, etc...directing all that energy and focus at the target)
cant the bow heavily
do not hold anchor but snap shoot


I've never seen him recorded by a 3rd party shooting past 20 yards, so I he might have the type of raw athleticism or decades of practice to pull that off. But the vast majority of archers cannot shoot like that and be accurate past 20 yards (more like 15 really). It's enticing though because if something works at 15 then it should at 30 if you try enough, right? But it just breaks down and usually can't be fixed.

When it's all said and done, you do end up shooting about as accurately as you can throw a baseball, but for mos people that isn't good enough to hunt past 20 yards. So maybe, it is the perfect analogy "with this method you will be able to shoot an arrow through the inside of a tire at the distance from the pitcher's mound to home plate".

 

[Sipsey]

Follow through, or having a consistent grip without movement of your bow hand, after the shot, was an issue that I had to sonsistantly work at. It can be a subtle issue that can be tamed by holding your bow in position after the shot until the arrow strikes the target. Any issue with form is more apparent at distance.

Practice at the distance your group begins to open up . I agree with the above recommendations. A smooth consistent snap shot is superior to an aiming type draw for recurves.

 

[tmattson]

What issues would be the cause of arrows impacting right of aim for a lefty?

12 and under I just look and shoot. When I use point on at 20 plus I hit left.

 

[will4554]

What issues would be the cause of arrows impacting right of aim for a lefty?

stiff arrow is my first guess. As far as distance shooting that is where my release really shines. Any mistake at 30 is very noticeable. It is fun to shoot that far. But I like the deer under 20. The closer the better IMO, 5-12 yards in my preference really.

 

[Red Beard]

Also if you find yourself focusing on tip of the arrow you will miss left or right.
The target doubles in you field of view and no matter which you aim at you are wrong so you will hit wide eespectively.

This is definitely something to test! Thank you. Might turn out that this is exactly my problem.

Truth be told, I am a lot less stressed when shooting under 18yds. The voice of Rogue Leader doesn't reverberate "Stay on target. Stay on target" over and over again in my mind from those distances. Like @Fozzie Bear implied though, everything falls apart when I introduce an actual aiming reference into the process.

 

[Razorbak66]

If you was closer I would learn ya. Do the blind bale! Build muscle memory repetition when you release where does your hand go , are you plucking and do you peak( to see where your arrow goes upon release) set your cant the same way every time wether it’s 10 yards or 30 yards only thing that would move is your bow hand to adjust for range pick one or the other instinctive or gap. When your new at this your brain can play tricks. I would check your arrows they might be still to stiff and at your draw weight you should be at a 600 spine with 175/200 grain head

 

[Red Beard]

burn a hole in the target
ignore the arrow

I like the concept of this process but the first two steps become impossible when you can't see the actual target because the arrow is literally in the way of the hole you'd like to burn in the target.

 

[Vtbow]

I'll throw a crack at this one...

Dont shoot at 15yards any more. You've got that down, and you've got your mind trained for it--I"m assuming youre shooting instinctive, sorry I ddint read through all the posts, but I skimmed it.

Warm up with eyes closed bail shots at 5 yards. Just shoot like 25 arrows with your eyes closed. One day concentrate on release, the next anchor point, the next follow thorugh(or whatever). then repeat, but concentrated on ONE thing a day. Then move out to 20 yards and concentrate on that same thing that day. Draw and HOLD concentrate on that one thing and stare at that spot, as they say, aim small miss small...

SOme people will probably disagree with me here, but... this is where the HOLD comes in. You gotta build up strength I hate to say it, but if you want to get more consistent at distances faster you gotta up your poundage on your bow. The amount of drop you have and how slow your arrow is moving at 30 yards isnt irrevelant. ITs going to be MUCH harder to train your mind to shoot instinctive with an arrow that drop 3-4 inches farther than one that drops 1". Small mistakes are magnified at distance ovbiously, but so now if you were 1" off low with your aiming and it drops 4" at that distance, you're out of the boiler room, wounded deer....

Yes, you can get consistent with that 30 something pound bow, but you're going to get frustrated faster because your mind has to make up for a lot more changes and drops to compensate. IF you can aim closer to the same way you so 10 yards closer, you're going to be more consistent...

 

[EricS]

Can you shoot that group from a tree cold? If so you’re as good or better than many successful primitive archers. Go kill some deer and worry about extending range this spring.

 

[Red Beard]

Can you shoot that group from a tree cold? If so you’re as good or better than many successful primitive archers. Go kill some deer and worry about extending range this spring.

I can shoot it from the ground cold. Haven't been brave enough to take my stickbow into a tree yet. Still hunting from a tree with a compound.

@GCTerpfan always tells me I just need to get within 15yds from a deer!

 

[Petrichor]

Pause.
One: take a breath for a minute and put the bow down for a day or two. A rest always helps. I think this is an underrated thing in archery. Many times we get wrapped up in what’s wrong with my form we keep shooting and get worse.

Two: I was extremely surprised to see you setup in The who shoots 500s thread. We have pretty similar draws and my 39lb (at my draw) bow barely eeks out using 500 with 200 up front. I think your arrow is way stiff.

Three: Make sure your cant is putting that arrow right under your eye.

Four: have someone video your form. A million things can cause your issue. Top three for me off the top of my head are arrow spine, plucking on release and inconsistent cant.

Five: don’t change everything or multiple things at once.

Six: i am not under the Illusion that my way or any other method of shooting is the best, archery is about what works for you. I have tried a bunch of different ones. Gapping for me kind of ruined the fun for me (no offense to anyone that gaps) because I was spending more time looking at my gap then watching the arrow and burning a hole as it were. True instinctive is fine but like many it’s a struggle for consistency at ranges past 30, then again I was shooting instinctive right handed and I’m left eye dominate (never tried it now that I shoot left and probably won’t). Some days were on fire and some not so much. I watched a video on youtube called “hit em like Howard hill”. Hill was a split vision shooter. Imagine looking at the target but being very aware of the arrow in your peripheral vision. You can kinda see if it’s lined up. You can adjust for elevation but your not bringing The arrow into focus at all and there is so set gap on your bow, string or otherwise. Even on my bad days, And we all still have them I shoot good enough to hit a deer at 30 yards. This is also how clay Hayes shoots and he has a good video on YouTube as well. I’ve watched him hit at 100 yards

Seven: sounds like your battling your mind passed 20 yards. Here’s a quote from Henry Ford for you. “Whether you think you can or you can’t, you’re right”.

eight: archery mentors are important

nine: if you are shooting good to 15. We’ll then for this hunting season shoot a self imposed max fifteen. You can work in the off season like crazy and change things.

ten: this is gonna sound harsh to compounders. It’s not meant to but if you really really want to get good at trad, stop leaving yourself a way out. Sell the training wheels. If you are having a bad day in trad then you always be tempted to take the compound and you’ll undermine your confidence in your bow. If you tradbow is all you have well you are gonna have to figure a way to get it done. And there is power in that.

 

[JSEXTON23]

2 words…Target Panic

 

[kbetts]

Stiff arrow that's dropping like a rock. You are shooting very light equipment as far as hunting is concerned.

I'm a 10 gpi guy. My 60# bows are shooting right around 600 grain arrows...most of which is up front.

 

[Red Beard]

Pause.
One: take a breath for a minute and put the bow down for a day or two. A rest always helps. I think this is an underrated thing in archery. Many times we get wrapped up in what’s wrong with my form we keep shooting and get worse.

Two: I was extremely surprised to see you setup in The who shoots 500s thread. We have pretty similar draws and my 39lb (at my draw) bow barely eeks out using 500 with 200 up front. I think your arrow is way stiff.

Three: Make sure your cant is putting that arrow right under your eye.

Four: have someone video your form. A million things can cause your issue. Top three for me off the top of my head are arrow spine, plucking on release and inconsistent cant.

Five: don’t change everything or multiple things at once.

Six: i am not under the Illusion that my way or any other method of shooting is the best, archery is about what works for you. I have tried a bunch of different ones. Gapping for me kind of ruined the fun for me (no offense to anyone that gaps) because I was spending more time looking at my gap then watching the arrow and burning a hole as it were. True instinctive is fine but like many it’s a struggle for consistency at ranges past 30, then again I was shooting instinctive right handed and I’m left eye dominate (never tried it now that I shoot left and probably won’t). Some days were on fire and some not so much. I watched a video on youtube called “hit em like Howard hill”. Hill was a split vision shooter. Imagine looking at the target but being very aware of the arrow in your peripheral vision. You can kinda see if it’s lined up. You can adjust for elevation but your not bringing The arrow into focus at all and there is so set gap on your bow, string or otherwise. Even on my bad days, And we all still have them I shoot good enough to hit a deer at 30 yards. This is also how clay Hayes shoots and he has a good video on YouTube as well. I’ve watched him hit at 100 yards

Seven: sounds like your battling your mind passed 20 yards. Here’s a quote from Henry Ford for you. “Whether you think you can or you can’t, you’re right”.

eight: archery mentors are important

nine: if you are shooting good to 15. We’ll then for this hunting season shoot a self imposed max fifteen. You can work in the off season like crazy and change things.

ten: this is gonna sound harsh to compounders. It’s not meant to but if you really really want to get good at trad, stop leaving yourself a way out. Sell the training wheels. If you are having a bad day in trad then you always be tempted to take the compound and you’ll undermine your confidence in your bow. If you tradbow is all you have well you are gonna have to figure a way to get it done. And there is power in that.

Great points here. Thank you. Yes. At some point the training wheels are going to have to come off. You need a sweet compound setup?

Sounds like recalibrating my mind to focus on the target and not on the arrow tip is something I should attempt. Now many folks have mentioned this.

 

[Petrichor]

Great points here. Thank you. Yes. At some point the training wheels are going to have to come off. You need a sweet compound setup?

Sounds like recalibrating my mind to focus on the target and not on the arrow tip is something I should attempt. Now many folks have mentioned this.

I still see the arrow tip but it’s kinda blurry as I’m focused on the target.

 

[Red Beard]

Can you shoot that group from a tree cold? If so you’re as good or better than many successful primitive archers. Go kill some deer and worry about extending range this spring.

You know, in rereading comments I just thought about this... Don't know if it makes a difference but ALL my 3D targets are below (height-wise) my initial arrow loosing position/location. I set it up like that to somewhat simulate a trajectory from a tree. Think each of the targets are ~10-12ft below me at 20-30yds. Would that make a difference at all?

 

[Sipsey]

Great points here. Thank you. Yes. At some point the training wheels are going to have to come off. You need a sweet compound setup?

Sounds like recalibrating my mind to focus on the target and not on the arrow tip is something I should attempt. Now many folks have mentioned this.

I was told to pick a spot on the spot. The narrower your focus the better, even on a deer I was instructed to pick a particular hair or small feature to aim at.

 

[Red Beard]

I was told to pick a spot on the spot. The narrower your focus the better, even on a deer I was instructed to pick a particular hair or small feature to aim at.

Can't wait to get out and try this method of not aiming (split vision)!

 

[JSEXTON23]

I’m being genuine. This is 1000% mental. At 15 yards, you are clearly able to shoot an arrow consistently. Even if your form is bad or you have a flaw, you seem to be doing it over and over.

Also, since you mentioned it gets worse with 40#, that’s a dead giveaway that this is target panic. Trust me, I know a thing or two about it.

You have to get control of your shot. Period. Full stop. If you don’t, this will just get worse. Especially under real pressure if you shoot at a deer, even at 15 yards. At 20-30 yards, you are feeling the pressure of aiming and mentally you fall apart.

Stop shooting arrows and do drills. Blind bale is one that has been mentioned. Draw-Holds are also invaluable. The reason being, you’re training your brain to disconnect aiming from release. Draw, anchor, aim, hold while running your shot process WITHOUT releasing the arrow. Start with short durations 5-15 seconds, then let down.

 

[Petrichor]

I’m being genuine. This is 1000% mental. At 15 yards, you are clearly able to shoot an arrow consistently. Even if your form is bad or you have a flaw, you seem to be doing it over and over.

Also, since you mentioned it gets worse with 40#, that’s a dead giveaway that this is target panic. Trust me, I know a thing or two about it.

You have to get control of your shot. Period. Full stop. If you don’t, this will just get worse. Especially under real pressure if you shoot at a deer, even at 15 yards. At 20-30 yards, you are feeling the pressure of aiming and mentally you fall apart.

Stop shooting arrows and do drills. Blind bale is one that has been mentioned. Draw-Holds are also invaluable. The reason being, you’re training your brain to disconnect aiming from release. Draw, anchor, aim, hold while running your shot process WITHOUT releasing the arrow. Start with short durations 5-15 seconds, then let down.

This is great advice.