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Why do I fall apart at distance?

Red Beard said:
Can't wait to get out and try this method of not aiming (split vision)!
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I don’t know that it’s not aiming as I can see the arrow pointing at the target. But look if your hitting groups like that I wouldn’t necessarily rush to change anything just yet. 15 yards is good for your setup. I would try and get the mental aspect fixed though and make sure the arrow is tuned.

with that said. I switched to split vision a few years back and haven’t really changed anything since.
 
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Red Beard said:
I can shoot it from the ground cold. :D Haven't been brave enough to take my stickbow into a tree yet. Still hunting from a tree with a compound.

@GCTerpfan always tells me I just need to get within 15yds from a deer!
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He’s not wrong. I can’t even shoot a compound very consistent past 25 yards. So I limit my shots to about 20 yards, but I prefer 10 .

I like to say I’m a mediocre archer, but a good bowhunter. “I’m bringing him in closer Merlin”
 
Red Beard said:
This is definitely something to test! Thank you. Might turn out that this is exactly my problem.

Truth be told, I am a lot less stressed when shooting under 18yds. The voice of Rogue Leader doesn't reverberate "Stay on target. Stay on target" over and over again in my mind from those distances. Like @Fozzie Bear implied though, everything falls apart when I introduce an actual aiming reference into the process.
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JSEXTON23 said:
I’m being genuine. This is 1000% mental. At 15 yards, you are clearly able to shoot an arrow consistently. Even if your form is bad or you have a flaw, you seem to be doing it over and over.

Also, since you mentioned it gets worse with 40#, that’s a dead giveaway that this is target panic. Trust me, I know a thing or two about it.

You have to get control of your shot. Period. Full stop. If you don’t, this will just get worse. Especially under real pressure if you shoot at a deer, even at 15 yards. At 20-30 yards, you are feeling the pressure of aiming and mentally you fall apart.

Stop shooting arrows and do drills. Blind bale is one that has been mentioned. Draw-Holds are also invaluable. The reason being, you’re training your brain to disconnect aiming from release. Draw, anchor, aim, hold while running your shot process WITHOUT releasing the arrow. Start with short durations 5-15 seconds, then let down.
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I'm with @JSEXTON23 on this being mental. I was kind of conflating form and target panic in my first post when I as talking about pulling through you shot. Typically, the two go hand and hand for me.

What I was trying to get at was what we were discussing via text the other week. You said you were shooting really well after listening to Kavanaugh talk about a second anchor. You said when you got to anchor you kept repeating "touch my ear, touch my ear...." until the shot broke. What I meant when I said in that text that I thought that was probably helping you separate aiming from your release is what @JSEXTON23 is talking about above. I would be willing to bet that your good shots are when you are not focusing on aiming but, instead are focusing on "touch my ear" the bad shots are when you are focusing on where the point of you arrow is.

Edit: and yes, just get them to 15 yards :)
 
GCTerpfan said:
I'm with @JSEXTON23 on this being mental. I was kind of conflating form and target panic in my first post when I as talking about pulling through you shot. Typically, the two go hand and hand for me.

What I was trying to get at was what we were discussing via text the other week. You said you were shooting really well after listening to Kavanaugh talk about a second anchor. You said when you got to anchor you kept repeating "touch my ear, touch my ear...." until the shot broke. What I meant when I said in that text that I thought that was probably helping you separate aiming from your release is what @JSEXTON23 is talking about above. I would be willing to bet that your good shots are when you are not focusing on aiming but, instead are focusing on "touch my ear" the bad shots are when you are focusing on where the point of you arrow is.

Edit: and yes, just get them to 15 yards :)
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Yep. I think you're right buddy. Now it just needs to quit raining so I can go shoot some more!
 
I have no idea what is causing your problem, but I know that I have the same exact problem except, for me, 18 yards seems to be my maximum distance with consistency. In my case I think I have some kind of confidence/ psychological barrier that makes me shoot worse at distance. Once deer season is over I’m going to come back and read this whole thread for some help. Good news is most of traditional kills come within 20 yards. Best of luck! Thanks!
 
Sipsey said:
Follow through, or having a consistent grip without movement of your bow hand, after the shot, was an issue that I had to sonsistantly work at. It can be a subtle issue that can be tamed by holding your bow in position after the shot until the arrow strikes the target. Any issue with form is more apparent at distance.

Practice at the distance your group begins to open up . I agree with the above recommendations. A smooth consistent snap shot is superior to an aiming type draw for recurves.
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The dumb question, does that also apply to longbows? Snap shot versus aiming...thx
 
katiesmom said:
The dumb question, does that also apply to longbows? Snap shot versus aiming...thx
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I have only shot recurves. I shot a lot of arrows. I even had a set of exercises especially for shooting heavier recurves. I called it snap shooting, but as I think about it, I think it was simply quickly settling into full draw, and then shooting. There is much debate about “Snap shooting,” and it’s not spoken of in high regards by serious archers. Here is a link, that has another link if you get through the first one. It speaks more precisely to what I’m speaking of in general terms. I hope it helps.
www.outdoorlife.com

Breaking Trad: Archery Lessons from Tom Clum Sr.

There's nothing easy about hunting with a longbow or recurve. Traditional archery is a perishable skill, and my accuracy and consistency have always fluctuated based on how much I shoot. Like most trad shooters, I had no formal instruction or coaching.
www.outdoorlife.com www.outdoorlife.com
 
I tell guys to feel the same at any distance when they draw the bow.
I noticed that at short range they short drew and at long range they put more strain on the string.
Its a thing some guys dont realize they are doing it. Dont feel the need to pull harder at distance feel the same tension. Relax.

As for hitting left when switching to point on, try this.
Point your index finger at an object 15 yards away with it in your line of sight but just below the object.
Now look at the object( burn a hole)
While doing so, tell me ho many fingers you see. Mind you, in your peripheral vision as you are focused on the object.
The answer is two. Keep trying until the answer is two, some people dont see it immediately but then they do.
Now, stare at your finger and tell me how many images of the selected object you see, in periphery as you are to be looking at your finger.
The answer again is two.
In the process of switching to point on a person will make the mistake of focusing on the point as he brings it to bear.
The trouble is that in doing so the target image is split and so if he aims(merges) at thd left one he will miss about 6 inches left and if his point merged with the right image he will miss right.
It is important to burn the hole and allow the point to come to the intended target and you will be centered.
You never look at the point, it will be there when it is.
To verify do the opposite, stare at your point and place it on the target. You will hit gut or neck.
Be carefull not to play pecaboo with the tip. Wait for it, it gets there fast enough
.
 
Red Beard said:
Thank you! Let's dive into that! How does G Fred Asbell show?

Funny thing is that I'm basically instinctive (imagine where I need to align vertically based on what my mind says the trajectory will be) out to 20yds. Then at 20 I start to use an actual aiming method from there to 30yds. At 20yds, the tip of my arrow equates to point of impact. After 20 though I have to institute a holdover with a gap that progresses as I walk backward.
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The aiming part explains a lot. You have target panic to some degree because you aiming makes your brain think "I can't mess this up, I have to hit where I'm aiming." Then it does all kinds of things to avoid responsibility, in a way. It might make you hesitate at the moment of the shot because your point is not precisely where it's supposed to be because of float, it might make you shoot before your arrow is on wherever it needs to be, it might make you release as soon as your arrow is pointing at your aiming point, etc. etc. I would try to get some footage of your shot from a couple of different angles and post them up somewhere, either in this thread or my PMs are always open. I know I'm a newer member but I do have a decent archery background and some credentials to my name and I'd always be down to help out a comrade fighting the mental battles.
 
You're as good or better than 95% of trad archers if you can hold that group at that range under hunting conditions. The average successful shot at P&Y deer is 19 yards (or was in 2010) and that's including compound bows. I'm quite certain the average trad archer is killing his deer at 10-15 yards, and that includes everybody giving you advice on what to "fix." No offense meant to anybody.

@redsquirrel and @GCTerpfan are killers. You're shooting as well as them. From a hunting standpoint, there isn't a problem. You just need warm bodies to practice on. If it helps I can also tell you that with my evil cross gun, I have a 20 yard "single pin" and take most of my shots under that distance.

If you want to work on extending distance at the range as a fun, but questionably useful exercise, I'd advise a clicker if you don't already have one, and then getting as good at 16 yards as you are at 15. And then 17. And 18. Do it slowly and to the point of boredom to tears before you move out further.

I think you'd be happiest if you treated extending range to 20 yards as a relaxed 5 year plan. It's hard.
 
I totlly agree that the vast majority of deer are taken under 20.
I posted somewhere that I helped track many a 30 yard deer. Most lost.
The old piece of info with a compound was (getting foggy)a hunting rig with silencers, peep, fletching...
Shooting about 260 fps will take 3/10 second to reach a deer at 20 yrds.
The deer reacts to the sound (or not)at 2/10 and begin compressing for launch.
Most trad bows are under 180 fps.
In most areas up north you can't shoot far until the leaves fall anyhow and then you better hope you account for every little branch.
Shooting at distance is fun and great practice. It is also where you fine tune your sights on compound bows.
The depth perception is the bugger especially in the woods. Thats why woods practice like 3Ds is very good, different from open range.
I think of what I see like a painted canvas at arms reach. I can touch any part of it with my finger.(arrow)
I forgot to mention earlier about point on.
Theres two ways to go about it.
One is to put the tip over the target and the other is to lollypop it, put the tip right up against the bottom of your target.
I lollypop because I can see my target this way.
An arrow tip is at a disadvantage against a sight pin due to the sight pin being so fine you can place it on a hair if your eyes are that good.
An arrow blots out at distance.
 
Nutterbuster said:
… and that includes everybody giving you advice on what to "fix." No offense meant to anybody.
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Bingo. This is why threads like these are just the worst in my opinion and why I tried to steer clear of anything physical in nature in regards to advice given. You’re doing everything from that standpoint just fine, as evidence from your 15 yard group. Maybe you don’t have tournament archer form, but you’re consistent by those results and that’s good enough.

The reality is, most of the advice geared towards how you’re aiming, your arrow tune, etc… missed the point. You’re hitting the target all over the place and that’s being caused by the lack of mental control. No amount of tuning or form practice is going to fix that. You have to dedicate time drilling the mental shot process without releasing an arrow. Otherwise, in the words of Joel Turner, “you’re practicing your own failures.”
 
kbetts said:
No one missed the point. He's not consistent. Multiple factors are at play.
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X2
In addition the people I’ve known to struggle with target panic struggle at all distances not a particular distance. When I see someone shoot good groups at 15 yards like that and all over the place at 20 l, I’ll admit my first thought is definitely not target panic. I do think there is a mental component here and probably some other stuff going on too. 15 yards is completely fine for trad archery, I advocate practicing longer so that 15 yard shot feels like a chip shot.
 
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