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Hickory Creek Koolaid
- Thread starter Nutterbuster
- Start date
- Joined
- May 16, 2018
- Messages
- 1,867
I suspect so, and I can justify the expense if I am guaranteed to be able to take ethical final 5 minute shots. I'm worried I'll spend big money on a claim, wait 3 years for the next similar moment, only to find out no go. I guess I could look at my deer target at that time, but something tells me that is not quite the same.
Anyway I'll start shopping. Anyone with tips send them along. I have zero experience scope shopping for any kind of weapon.
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- Mar 21, 2018
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- 5,525
That sucks. I have a somewhat cheap truglo on mine and I've practiced shooting at pretty much dark and its been ok.
Or one that costs the same as the mini...
Aimpoint 12417 Micro T-1 2 MOA with Standard Mount https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007GOD2YO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_gXLFFb4XEQ0V2
LoadedLimbs
Well-Known Member
@TNSTAAFL - I have just completed my own search for a replacement scope for the Hickory Creek Mini. If you can justify spending $300 - $400 for a replacement scope, I recommend that you go with one of the following:
1. Hawke XB30 Compact 1.5-6x36 SR - Street Price is usually around $270.00 on Amazon.com
Link: Hawke XB30 Compact on Amazon.com
2. TenPoint Rangemaster Pro 1.5-5x32 - Street Price is usually around $270.00 on Amazon.com
Link: TenPoint Rangemaster Pro on Amazon.com
3. TenPoint EVO-X Marksman 1.5-6x36 - Street Price is usually around $370.00 on Amazon.com
Link: TenPoint EVO-X Marksman on Amazon.com
It turns out that TenPoint has Hawke make their scopes and put the TenPoint name on them. All three of these scopes will give you the low-light performance you desire ... they have excellent light gathering capabilities. (1.) and (3.) have the best low light performance of any crossbow scopes I've found. All three scopes also have some highly desirable features for crossbow users:
a) Etched glass reticle, which cannot shift or break like wire reticles can
b) Battery powered variable intensity red and green reticle illumination so you can easily see your reticle in low light conditions, and fine tune how bright it appears against the image you're viewing through the scope. The ability to adjust the illumination intensity becomes critical as the level of light changes fairly rapidly at dusk and dawn.
c) Multiple stadia lines providing hold points for 20, 30, 40 yards (and further)
d) Arrow velocity indicator scale on the locking variable power ring, to assist you with sighting in your crossbow. Once you have it dialed in to match the velocity/trajectory of your arrow, you lock the variable power ring so that it won't move if someone tries to turn it or if you accidentally bump it.*
e) 30mm scope tube, which provides better light transmission for low light performance than 1" and smaller scope tubes
f) Nitrogen purged to prevent moisture entry and internal fogging
*Be aware that you don't use these scopes in the field like a variable power riflescope. The magnification is only used to adjust the spacing between the stadia lines of the reticle during your initial setup, so that they match the trajectory of your arrow perfectly. Once you find that magnification setting (while sighting in at the range), you lock the power adjustment ring and never change the magnification again. In the field, you use the scope as a fixed power scope locked at whatever magnification setting was the correct one for your arrow trajectory. When the HC Mini is set to max draw weight with stock arrows and 100gr heads, the launch velocity is about 320 to 330 fps. The corresponding magnification setting you'll end up at for the associated arrow trajectory is somewhere around 2.5X magnification, give or take a little, depending on the particulars of your individual Mini and arrow setup.
You won't need a chronograph to setup your system. You simply sight in the 20 yard stadia line at 20 yards, then move your target out to 40 yards and shoot with your hold on the 40 yard stadia line. If your arrow hits too high or too low, you dial the magnification power up or down (without moving the elevation setting on the scope) and try again. Once it's hitting the bullseye at 40 yards using the 40 yard stadia line, you can lock the variable power ring in place and you're almost done. Do some final checks to make sure the 30 yard stadia line is "on" at 30 yards and the 50 yard stadia line is "on" at 50 yards just to gain confidence that you've got it dialed in correctly. Once there, you're "done for good" unless you adjust the draw weight or modify the type of arrow or head you're using - then you should go back to the range and dial it in again.
I can say from user experience that these are the best alternatives that I've found to the stock scope provided on the Hickory Creek Mini. I have no doubt that there are riflescopes with larger objective lenses and even better light gathering capabilities for low-light performance. But if you want a crossbow scope that gives you exact hold points matched to your arrow's trajectory, these are the best performers in low light that I have found in the marketplace today - and I'm confident that they'll let you take your shot in the last five minutes of legal shooting hours.
I currently have the EVO-X Marksman mounted on my HC Mini, because I prefer the reticle it has over the other two options I listed. All of them have adequate reticles - the one in the EVO-X is just my personal preference.
One final note: If you're going to put a replacement scope on the HC Mini, you need to be mindful of the sweep path of the bowstring in relation to the turrets on the scope. Using a larger diameter scope like the ones I've recommended above requires you to adjust the position of the picatinny rail to the right (on a right-handed Mini) to ensure adequate clearance between the string and the scope turret when firing the bow. Failure to be mindful of this during setup will cause undesirable consequences.
There are two allen head screws that lock the picatinny rail in place on the L-channel on the Mini. It may not be obvious until disassembly of those screws and removal of the rail, but they pass through slots, not holes. Those slots permit you to slide the entire picatinny rail left or right to achieve the string clearance needed for your particular scope. Make sure you get it right the first time. (It's not hard as long as you pay attention.) Attention to detail on this is critical ... You have been warned!
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- May 16, 2018
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- 1,867
Thank you so much for your detailed and informative post. This is above and beyond, and it reminds me why I've enjoyed and benefited from this forum so much over the last three years.@TNSTAAFL - I have just completed my own search for a replacement scope for the Hickory Creek Mini. If you can justify spending $300 - $400 for a replacement scope, I recommend that you go with one of the following:
1. Hawke XB30 Compact 1.5-6x36 SR - Street Price is usually around $270.00 on Amazon.com
Link: Hawke XB30 Compact on Amazon.com
2. TenPoint Rangemaster Pro 1.5-5x32 - Street Price is usually around $270.00 on Amazon.com
Link: TenPoint Rangemaster Pro on Amazon.com
3. TenPoint EVO-X Marksman 1.5-6x36 - Street Price is usually around $370.00 on Amazon.com
Link: TenPoint EVO-X Marksman on Amazon.com
It turns out that TenPoint has Hawke make their scopes and put the TenPoint name on them. All three of these scopes will give you the low-light performance you desire ... they have excellent light gathering capabilities. (1.) and (3.) have the best low light performance of any crossbow scopes I've found. All three scopes also have some highly desirable features for crossbow users:
a) Etched glass reticle, which cannot shift or break like wire reticles can
b) Battery powered variable intensity red and green reticle illumination so you can easily see your reticle in low light conditions, and fine tune how bright it appears against the image you're viewing through the scope. The ability to adjust the illumination intensity becomes critical as the level of light changes fairly rapidly at dusk and dawn.
c) Multiple stadia lines providing hold points for 20, 30, 40 yards (and further)
d) Arrow velocity indicator scale on the locking variable power ring, to assist you with sighting in your crossbow. Once you have it dialed in to match the velocity/trajectory of your arrow, you lock the variable power ring so that it won't move if someone tries to turn it or if you accidentally bump it.*
e) 30mm scope tube, which provides better light transmission for low light performance than 1" and smaller scope tubes
f) Nitrogen purged to prevent moisture entry and internal fogging
*Be aware that you don't use these scopes in the field like a variable power riflescope. The magnification is only used to adjust the spacing between the stadia lines of the reticle during your initial setup, so that they match the trajectory of your arrow perfectly. Once you find that magnification setting (while sighting in at the range), you lock the power adjustment ring and never change the magnification again. In the field, you use the scope as a fixed power scope locked at whatever magnification setting was the correct one for your arrow trajectory. When the HC Mini is set to max draw weight with stock arrows and 100gr heads, the launch velocity is about 320 to 330 fps. The corresponding magnification setting you'll end up at for the associated arrow trajectory is somewhere around 2.5X magnification, give or take a little, depending on the particulars of your individual Mini and arrow setup.
You won't need a chronograph to setup your system. You simply sight in the 20 yard stadia line at 20 yards, then move your target out to 40 yards and shoot with your hold on the 40 yard stadia line. If your arrow hits too high or too low, you dial the magnification power up or down (without moving the elevation setting on the scope) and try again. Once it's hitting the bullseye at 40 yards using the 40 yard stadia line, you can lock the variable power ring in place and you're almost done. Do some final checks to make sure the 30 yard stadia line is "on" at 30 yards and the 50 yard stadia line is "on" at 50 yards just to gain confidence that you've got it dialed in correctly. Once there, you're "done for good" unless you adjust the draw weight or modify the type of arrow or head you're using - then you should go back to the range and dial it in again.
I can say from user experience that these are the best alternatives that I've found to the stock scope provided on the Hickory Creek Mini. I have no doubt that there are riflescopes with larger objective lenses and even better light gathering capabilities for low-light performance. But if you want a crossbow scope that gives you exact hold points matched to your arrow's trajectory, these are the best performers in low light that I have found in the marketplace today - and I'm confident that they'll let you take your shot in the last five minutes of legal shooting hours.
I currently have the EVO-X Marksman mounted on my HC Mini, because I prefer the reticle it has over the other two options I listed. All of them have adequate reticles - the one in the EVO-X is just my personal preference.
One final note: If you're going to put a replacement scope on the HC Mini, you need to be mindful of the sweep path of the bowstring in relation to the turrets on the scope. Using a larger diameter scope like the ones I've recommended above requires you to adjust the position of the picatinny rail to the right (on a right-handed Mini) to ensure adequate clearance between the string and the scope turret when firing the bow. Failure to be mindful of this during setup will cause undesirable consequences.
There are two allen head screws that lock the picatinny rail in place on the c-channel on the Mini. It may not be obvious until disassembly of those screws and removal of the rail, but they pass through slots, not holes. Those slots permit you to slide the entire picatinny rail left or right to achieve the string clearance needed for your particular scope. Make sure you get it right the first time. (It's not hard as long as you pay attention.) Attention to detail on this is critical ... You have been warned!
Thank you for the warning about the string travel path. It was on my mind when looking at scopes online as I noticed the left side turret that is not on my stock scope. It was going to be my next question. Your warning is an important one for all to consider and I really appreciate it. I understand the picatinny rail mount slots and will adjust accordingly.
I also appreciate your detailed explanation of the sighting, locking, and usage in the field protocols. Very thorough and helpful, especially for a guy (me) with limited scope experience.
One follow up question I have is whether I can use a "single-pin" sighting approach where the crosshair is set to zero at 27 yards so that I am +- a few inches from 10-40 yards? That is how I setup the stock scope and I like how I perform with it at all shots I would take. I ignore the other reticle lines. Perhaps you could convince me that this is not the best approach, if you disagree with this. I'm open to hearing and learning more.
Thanks again. I really appreciate your time, experience, and wisdom.
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Well, I sold my original HCA earlier this year. I caved and will be jumping back in with the mini.
Can someone post details/pics of the nylon nut mod to get the stock/bow interface to lock up more solid, please? My original would get tight with just the supplied locking knob.
Also, I assume everyone is using the blue loctitie on all the other bolts, right?
Can someone post details/pics of the nylon nut mod to get the stock/bow interface to lock up more solid, please? My original would get tight with just the supplied locking knob.
Also, I assume everyone is using the blue loctitie on all the other bolts, right?
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2018
- Messages
- 2,042
Hickory Creek Koolaid
I guess that is why mine has a hole drilled and tapped through the round part with a bolt inserted so it cannot turn.
saddlehunter.com
five
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2019
- Messages
- 459
Well. That was enough to push me over the edge. I’ll be trying the kool aid very soon
LoadedLimbs
Well-Known Member
@TNSTAAFL - you certainly can use a single pin approach with these scopes - and if the simplicity of that approach appeals to you, I say “go for it”. You’re accepting that the hit is going to be “off” in elevation (within certain limits) when you do this, however.
If you want to use that approach, there are riflescopes you can consider that have simpler reticles and even better low light performance - ones with an objective lense between 40mm and 50mm. A 50mm objective may be pushing beyond the limit of what makes sense for the Mini - I can’t say for sure. I do know that the vertical orientation of the Mini’s limbs results in the possibility of seeing the limb through your scope, so be aware of that. You may have to adjust the placement and/or magnification so that you don’t see a blurred image of your upper limb in the edge of your sight picture.
Larger diameter riflescope choices will involve an even heavier scope that looks a bit out of place on the Mini. Everything is a trade off.
For me, I prefer the multi-stadia-line reticles for a crossbow scope so that I have vertical precision in my aiming point for the full range of ethical shot distances during hunting. The animal’s reaction (“jumping the string”) is too big of a variable for me to be comfortable using a single pin approach. I prefer to reduce variation everywhere I can because there are so many things that can’t be controlled in real-life hunting situations.
But hey, I have no qualms with someone who prefers the simplicity of the single pin approach - if they know their limits and use good judgement, it’s just a personal preference for equipment setup, and I can understand the appeal.
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LoadedLimbs
Well-Known Member
@mtsrunner - I secured most fasteners on my Mini with blue Loctite. I chose not to mess with some of the fasteners because they were already very secure, and haven’t shown a propensity to loosen. If they do loosen over time, I’ll apply blue Loctite later.
I don’t like to use red Loctite unless absolutely necessary to secure a fastener. (Red Loctite is for permanent installation.)
I have a Truglo scope on mine. When it is just dark enough to barely see with my eyes alone, I can't see anything through the scope. This has been about 10 minutes after sunset in the dark woods I hunt. If I can't see enough to shoot, I climb down, pack up and go home.
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[mention]Jtaylor [/mention] is there a particular post# that you were trying to link for a picture? That link just took me back to the OP.
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- Dec 25, 2018
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Weird. Post #57 shows how I shimmed the two pieces and made them lock together tighter.
Mine goes right to that post.
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- May 16, 2018
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I hear you. I'm going to have to reflect on that some more and see where it leads me. I see the pros and cons of both approaches.
Can I ask for an opinion on an alternative scope? I know you can only speak to what you've used, and I really appreciate it. Pretty tempted to bite the bullet and go with the EVO.
This Vortex scope is a little cheaper, and more importantly in stock locally. Plus I have some ****s "cash" that would knock down the price some. Thoughts?
https://www.****ssportinggoods.com/...ope-20vorucrssfr27x32abw/20vorucrssfr27x32abw
I'm not on a tight budget per se, but there are always other items on the "to buy" list so being frugal where possible pays off. If you are confident about the EVOs superiority being worth the price difference I'm sure I'll be happy down the road.
I just want the next deer that sets up perfectly in the final 5 to come home with me. Especially if it was a big buck. I would pay quite a bit to prevent that event from ever happening.
LoadedLimbs
Well-Known Member
@TNSTAAFL - I took a look at the manufacturer's specifications for the Vortex Crossfire II 2-7x32mm crossbow scope and compared them to the specs for the TenPoint EVO-X. If you're going to use the single pin sighting approach, I would keep looking for a better light-gathering scope that has a single crosshair instead of at multi-stadia reticle. If you're considering using the multi-stadia reticle as it is intended, then here's the rundown on the important specs to compare between the Vortex Crossfire II and the TenPoint EVO-X:
Main scope tube diameter:
Vortex = 30mm; TenPoint = 30mm (Identical)
Objective lense diameter:
Vortex = 32mm; TenPoint = 36mm (Advantage goes to TenPoint)
Parallax-free distance:
Vortex =75 yards; TenPoint = 50 yards (Advantage goes to TenPoint)
Approximate Magnification Power setting for 330 fps crossbow bolts:
Vortex = 3.0X; TenPoint = 2.5X (Advantage depends on personal preference - i.e., higher or lower mag preferred?)
Approximate Field of View at 100 yards at power setting for 330 fps crossbow bolts:
Vortex = 49.2 feet; TenPoint = 73.2 feet (Advantage goes to TenPoint - a pretty big advantage)
Approximate Ocular Lense Exit Pupil Diameter at power setting for 330 fps crossbow bolts:
Vortex = 13.7mm; TenPoint = 20mm (Advantage goes to TenPoint - a huge advantage for low-light performance)
Ok - so here's the breakdown of what the above comparisons mean in layman's terms...
Objective Lense: A larger objective lense gathers more light. The difference in objective lense diameter between these two scopes is not large - but it IS significant, because the larger the area of the objective lense, the more light it collects. The area of the TenPoint's objective lense is 27% larger than that of the Vortex's objective lense - that translates into 27% more light gathered to help you see in low light conditions.
Parallax: Parallax is the phenomenon where you have inaccuracy introduced due to misalignment of your eye and the axis you want to view. A good example is if you have ever been in the passenger seat of a car and you look over at the needle on a speedometer when the driver is at highway speed... it will seem to indicate a different reading than what the driver sees because of the offset between the plane of the needle and the plane of the lettering of the speedometer. The inaccuracy that you see as the passenger due to not looking down the axis of the speedometer is "parallax". A fixed focus scope is only parallax-free at one distance. At the parallax-free distance, if your eye isn't precisely aligned with the axis of the scope when you fire, it won't matter because the aiming error introduced will be exactly zero. The more that the shot distance departs from the parallax-free distance, the larger the aiming error when your eye isn't centered on axis of the scope. If your most probable shot distance hunting with your crossbow will be between 10 and 40 yards, having a scope that's parallax-free in the exact middle of those distances (25 yards) would be ideal. Note that the Vortex has a parallax-free distance of 75 yards (which is more suitable for a rifle than a crossbow), whereas the TenPoint has a parallax-free distance of 50 yards. Also note that the layout of the HC Mini makes it easy to have a certain amount of misalignment between your eye and the axis of the scope. (You have to tilt your head a little awkwardly when using the scope.) Advantage goes to the TenPoint.
Ocular lense exit pupil diameter: This is the diameter of the visible light transmitted out the back of the scope to your eye. The larger the exit pupil diameter, the brighter the image appears to you because you're getting more light into your eye. Note that there's a SIGNIFICANT difference in the exit pupil diameters of the Vortex vs. the TenPoint. If looking through scopes with equivalent objective lense size and glass quality, it's the circular area of the exit pupil that affects perceived brightness of the scope. The circular area of the exit pupil of the TenPoint is 113% larger than that of the Vortex.
Conclusion: the TenPoint objective lense collects 27% more light into the tube than the Vortex, and the TenPoint ocular lense emits 113% larger area of light to the viewer's eye. Vortex makes a decent product, and so does TenPoint. These two scopes aren't equals, however, so only you can decide if those differences are meaningful enough to you to justify the price difference. I hope I haven't caused confusion, and that this info is helpful to you. These numbers probably aren't real meaningful - I get that. But without trying both scopes side by side in low light, it's hard to know exactly how big of a difference in low light performance there is. Is that a possibility? Could you just buy both and (without mounting them) compare them side by side as it gets dark in your yard? Then return the one you don't want to keep?
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- May 16, 2018
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Outstanding information once again. I feel like I'm getting a degree in optical engineering!
While the details stretched my otherwise trained brain, I think I see the forest for the trees. They might be close enough on performance to save some money, but there are also differences enough in function such that should a deer step out with 1 minute on the clock, I won't feel good about having saved a couple hundred bucks if I can't see it.
Thanks again bud.