Stick kick out a few questions

[DMTJAGER]

As two and three step climbing sticks have been around for decades now having been used by tens if not hundreds of thousands of hunters I would imagine most if not all of thier flaws and problems have been discovered and made common knowledge to the hunting community.

Considering there is now a substantial amount of user data I would like to know if anyone can answer a few questions about 3 and 2 step strap on climbing steps kicking out while being used with a acceptable degree of certainty.

#1-How often does it happen and is it a minimal or serious threat or somewhere in between

#2-What are the most likely or common causes

#3-Of the two designs are 2 step or 3 step sticks more or less susceptible or equal

#3-Does indavidual step type matter and of the step designs are solid non- folding single steps, single folding steps or double folding steps less more or equally susceptible to kicking out

Besides three practice sessions with my OLW 32" sticks long ago I have no other practical experience with climbing sticks.
Having said that I suspect the among the two most likely causes for sticks kicking out would be #1-improper installation and or loosely installed #2-Excessive side pressure

But as I said my first hand personal experience with sticks is essentially non exisistant and none of my friends use them so I have no reliable personal first hand experience to call upon.
And I've never seen kick out or its causes discussed at any hunting website that I can recall.
I realize it is very unlikely any actual studies on climbing stick failures or mishaps and the causes for same has actually ever been done but I felt if any place would have at least some idea on such data websites like this wod be among the best places to inquire.

 

[bj139]

Your number 2, excessive side pressure, is my guess for 90% of these accidents.

 

[BuckTown]

1. Rarely happens compared to the amount of climbs that occur on them. Serious threat if it happens and your not prepared for it.
2. Modified attachment methods, not completely tightening attachment or setting stick, and excessive side pressure.
3. I would guess 2 step stick more susceptible than 3 stick. Would guess no difference in single or double step sticks.

 

[raisins]

I'll just say that a lot of people (myself included) might find it hard to answer these questions because stick kick outs are actually very rare. So, not a lot of people have a lot of personal data. If someone has chronic stick kick outs, then I don't know how they are doing it. Probably someone with a lot of kick outs or someone (@enkriss ?) that has owned every stick on Earth can help you more.

Use a quality stick, use a tight attachment method, climb on the high side of the tree, set the stick carefully, don't climb very large diameter trees, and don't put the stick at much of a side angle....and you might go an entire lifetime without having a single kick out. I had one issue in one climb, and it was because I was climbing a very large diameter tree for me (I usually stick to trees I can reach around and touch fingers) and the bark was loose (with a large enough diameter tree, it is more like trying to climb a wall with a stick and it can skate across the surface....small diameter trees stink for other reasons...but man do sticks wrap around those suckers if you pull your attachment method tight). My amsteel was hung up on bark on the back side. When I step, the amsteel slid down and introduced enough slack to make the stick go loose. It was a lesson learned. I was close to my lower stick and just went back onto it. That was one time in many climbs over the years.

I've had good luck with Hawk Heliums (full length and cut down by me to 2 sets of steps separated by 23"). From reputation, Beast Sticks are probably the least likely to kick out. Stick with the cam strap or if you use a DIY attachment method, pick one that pulls tight and stays tight (with your concerns, I might stay away from daisy chains as they are traditionally used....I use daisy chains but with a rope mod technique).

EDIT: It isn't that hard to climb with both a lineman's lanyard and tether at the same time. I do both every hunt, and I would suggest it.

 

[davesonic444]

I have had stick kickouts. Using xstand sticks. The only time it happened to me was climbing down. I was on a small tree and put weight on the right step. It kicked out and slid down a foot. I bear hugged the tree and put my foot dead center of the offending stick and climbed down. This is a set i wanted to use for the rut so i reset the stick and brought extra straps to put on the bottom of the stick. These are long sticks and i believe that is the contributing factor.

 

[Hunter260]

Stick kick outs are 100% caused by user error. You need to attach your stick to the tree correctly. I made a video on it.

 

[bj139]

I saw a comment somewhere that someone was going to add a second strap to each stick. It might be a good idea especially for us backup aficionados. If I was climbing sticks I think I would.

 

[thedutchtouch]

I'm very new. If that's ok keep reading:. Paranoid about this made me go with double step sticks. I set them as good as I can then on the way up put one foot in each bottom step and give them a few bounces to see if I can set them even more before climbing. Anson when climbing down I step right in the middle, slide my foot over slightly and step the other foot down, trying to keep weight centered as much as possible. So far so good but I'm only a dozen or so climbs in.

 

[DMTJAGER]

I'll just say that a lot of people (myself included) might find it hard to answer these questions because stick kick outs are actually very rare. So, not a lot of people have a lot of personal data. If someone has chronic stick kick outs, then I don't know how they are doing it. Probably someone with a lot of kick outs or someone (@enkriss ?) that has owned every stick on Earth can help you more.

Use a quality stick, use a tight attachment method, climb on the high side of the tree, set the stick carefully, don't climb very large diameter trees, and don't put the stick at much of a side angle....and you might go an entire lifetime without having a single kick out. I had one issue in one climb, and it was because I was climbing a very large diameter tree for me (I usually stick to trees I can reach around and touch fingers) and the bark was loose (with a large enough diameter tree, it is more like trying to climb a wall with a stick and it can skate across the surface....small diameter trees stink for other reasons...but man do sticks wrap around those suckers if you pull your attachment method tight). My amsteel was hung up on bark on the back side. When I step, the amsteel slid down and introduced enough slack to make the stick go loose. It was a lesson learned. I was close to my lower stick and just went back onto it. That was one time in many climbs over the years.

I've had good luck with Hawk Heliums (full length and cut down by me to 2 sets of steps separated by 23"). From reputation, Beast Sticks are probably the least likely to kick out. Stick with the cam strap or if you use a DIY attachment method, pick one that pulls tight and stays tight (with your concerns, I might stay away from daisy chains as they are traditionally used....I use daisy chains but with a rope mod technique).

EDIT: It isn't that hard to climb with both a lineman's lanyard and tether at the same time. I do both every hunt, and I would suggest it.

Rasins,
Thanks for your well thought out experienced based reply. Quite impressive really. It's easy to see you've spent considerable time using saddles and related equipment and gained a wealth of knowledge and thanks for sharing it with novices seriously considering giving saddle hunting a try such as I.
I always suspected that incidents of climbing sticks kicking out if installed and used correctly (little to no side pressure) were very very rare as I spend more time than I care to admit researching hunting equipment, techniques, and emerging technologies and are constantly coming across videos detailing equipment problems or failures due to design flaws or defects.
Rare have been the incidents I have seen of people reporting 100% factory unmodified climbing stick failures of any kind including kicking out.

But I make my living maintaining and fixing complex electrical and mechanical equipment and I know each and every part of a piece of equipment represents a point of potential failure and the more complex the greater the odds of equipment failure. Considering this I am a little paranoid of equipment failure especially equipment my personal safety depends on. Add on to this I am a larger guy at 6'-2" 240-260lbs and you can imagine my concern over using climbing sticks that save for the grade 8 bolts are made from Aluminum. My one and only piece of climbing equipment I have used for over 35 years utterly lacks any complexity what so ever and has no moving parts and is made from 1/2" hardened steel rod and since going to Cranford screw in steps some 30-33 years ago I have never experienced a single problem let alone failure of any kind.

About 5-6 years ago I stumbled across a phenomenal private party deal on two sets of NIB USA made 32" LW sticks, but you had to buy both sets so I did. I did three practice climbs with them and was amazed how much more quickly and physically easy five sticks went up VS 12-14
C/SITS, and really liked them except for my teen aged sasquatch sized 14/15 XXXW boots not fitting all that well on the single steps VS my screw in steps (SIS).

My last three land owners have been animate about no screw in steps or using nails or screws to attach ladder stands to trees. Thankfully I have multiple ladder stands so this was not a huge issue but now I must come up with an alternate method for when I have to relocate or set a new stand or stands in the middle of season and must be as quick, quiet and have the least risk of alerting deer to my presence while doing so and obviously a ladder stand doesn't meet that set of criteria to any degree.

I Have been considering trying out a saddle for at least 5-7 years and now but always hesitated due to mostly cost factors and being hesitant to having to learn an entirely new way to bow hunt elevated as well as shoot my bow differently from a saddle VS a hang on. But now that I am encountering private land as often as not that the owner doesn't allow me to use screw in steps and all my hang on stands save one hang on by means of a screw in support bracket, I either must invest in stands that attach by means of a strap or buy a saddle. To me the saddle in terms of economics, versatility, safety, and simplicity of use makes more senesce to buy one saddle than 2-4 new hang on stands and because my life depends on my tree stand choice I do not buy cheap stands add to this I am a large person closer to 270lbs once fully outfitted and on stand cheap hang on stands are not a responsible option.

My only real concern now with any aspect of trying a saddle was the means to ascend the tree if I can not use CSITS. Basically for me my choices given some of my shoulder issues were either strap on sticks or strap on steps. I already own pretty good sticks so thanks to the immensely experienced members of this sight sharing their experience and incite with me I'll give my LW sticks a try at first. I do plan on replacing the top step on each stick with a EWO's solid single step and one cable step aider on the bottom step to begin with and take it from there.

Thanks to all who replied and confirmed what I suspected about climbing sticks and laying to rest any concerns I had.

 

[DMTJAGER]

Stick kick outs are 100% caused by user error. You need to attach your stick to the tree correctly. I made a video on it.

Thank you for your time and effort in making that video. I am now confident in using sticks. When it is of critically vital importance, I by my very nature do things the right way and abhor and essentially refuse taking shortcuts or doing crap work. For this reason I am at times quite unpopular with my coworkers and even Mgmt. at work. More than a few times I elected not to hunt because I forgot my FBH back at the truck. I will not hunt from a tree stand without my FBH.

Have you considered the method another member here did a did a video here on using essentially I think was a modified truckers hitch knot to secure the Amsteel daisy chain around the tree and to the stick? Not 100% positive he is a member here.
Here is his video

Beast Sticks...... attachment method

What method are you guys finding is the lightest and most efficient in attaching the Beast sticks? Looking something that packs well too. standard buckle Amsteel Rope mode(what diameter) buckle less strap mod(what strap) versa strap daisy chain Amsteel Daisy chain

saddlehunter.com

 

[EricS]

I’ve had me kick out and several that I knocked loose with pull up rope.
The potential is there with any attachment method but more likely with daisy chains. I still use daisy chains.
It doesn’t seem to matter how many steps there are. The type of step doesn’t seem to matter either. I just try to keepmy weight to the center of the stick when on the top step.

 

[davesonic444]

Tree size and growth have a part in kickouts. Never had any on basketball straight trees. The one i added straps to was 7 inch diameter and a split tree with a twisted grain.

 

[Bigterp]

Rasins,
Thanks for your well thought out experienced based reply. Quite impressive really. It's easy to see you've spent considerable time using saddles and related equipment and gained a wealth of knowledge and thanks for sharing it with novices seriously considering giving saddle hunting a try such as I.
I always suspected that incidents of climbing sticks kicking out if installed and used correctly (little to no side pressure) were very very rare as I spend more time than I care to admit researching hunting equipment, techniques, and emerging technologies and are constantly coming across videos detailing equipment problems or failures due to design flaws or defects.
Rare have been the incidents I have seen of people reporting 100% factory unmodified climbing stick failures of any kind including kicking out.

But I make my living maintaining and fixing complex electrical and mechanical equipment and I know each and every part of a piece of equipment represents a point of potential failure and the more complex the greater the odds of equipment failure. Considering this I am a little paranoid of equipment failure especially equipment my personal safety depends on. Add on to this I am a larger guy at 6'-2" 240-260lbs and you can imagine my concern over using climbing sticks that save for the grade 8 bolts are made from Aluminum. My one and only piece of climbing equipment I have used for over 35 years utterly lacks any complexity what so ever and has no moving parts and is made from 1/2" hardened steel rod and since going to Cranford screw in steps some 30-33 years ago I have never experienced a single problem let alone failure of any kind.

About 5-6 years ago I stumbled across a phenomenal private party deal on two sets of NIB USA made 32" LW sticks, but you had to buy both sets so I did. I did three practice climbs with them and was amazed how much more quickly and physically easy five sticks went up VS 12-14
C/SITS, and really liked them except for my teen aged sasquatch sized 14/15 XXXW boots not fitting all that well on the single steps VS my screw in steps (SIS).

My last three land owners have been animate about no screw in steps or using nails or screws to attach ladder stands to trees. Thankfully I have multiple ladder stands so this was not a huge issue but now I must come up with an alternate method for when I have to relocate or set a new stand or stands in the middle of season and must be as quick, quiet and have the least risk of alerting deer to my presence while doing so and obviously a ladder stand doesn't meet that set of criteria to any degree.

I Have been considering trying out a saddle for at least 5-7 years and now but always hesitated due to mostly cost factors and being hesitant to having to learn an entirely new way to bow hunt elevated as well as shoot my bow differently from a saddle VS a hang on. But now that I am encountering private land as often as not that the owner doesn't allow me to use screw in steps and all my hang on stands save one hang on by means of a screw in support bracket, I either must invest in stands that attach by means of a strap or buy a saddle. To me the saddle in terms of economics, versatility, safety, and simplicity of use makes more senesce to buy one saddle than 2-4 new hang on stands and because my life depends on my tree stand choice I do not buy cheap stands add to this I am a large person closer to 270lbs once fully outfitted and on stand cheap hang on stands are not a responsible option.

My only real concern now with any aspect of trying a saddle was the means to ascend the tree if I can not use CSITS. Basically for me my choices given some of my shoulder issues were either strap on sticks or strap on steps. I already own pretty good sticks so thanks to the immensely experienced members of this sight sharing their experience and incite with me I'll give my LW sticks a try at first. I do plan on replacing the top step on each stick with a EWO's solid single step and one cable step aider on the bottom step to begin with and take it from there.

Thanks to all who replied and confirmed what I suspected about climbing sticks and laying to rest any concerns I had.

Based on what you mentioned above, I’d use what you already have, I’d advocate a double step top & bottom. That way you can make each step identical ascending/descending..... I’ve owned tried most sticks out there & like others said kick outs primarily come from extreme side pressure & modified attachment methods. Stay away from those & you’re fine. If your looking for rock solid on the tree beast sticks w/ cam buckles don’t move. Working with GWB sticks now, they are the most sturdy/ compact I’ve had but a bit short for me. If your looking for toe space from stand-offs then EWO is tops followed by beast. Good luck, don’t be afraid of kick outs just aware that the more mods you make the more risk you introduce.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

Lots good input here. I think some sticks are less prone to kick outs. Some standoffs bite the tree hard. EWO standoffs are great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[davesonic444]

I also have some muddy pros and used them on a 4 inch diameter tree to hang a high trail cam with no issues.

 

[swampdonkey]

As two and three step climbing sticks have been around for decades now having been used by tens if not hundreds of thousands of hunters I would imagine most if not all of thier flaws and problems have been discovered and made common knowledge to the hunting community.

Considering there is now a substantial amount of user data I would like to know if anyone can answer a few questions about 3 and 2 step strap on climbing steps kicking out while being used with a acceptable degree of certainty.

#1-How often does it happen and is it a minimal or serious threat or somewhere in between

#2-What are the most likely or common causes

#3-Of the two designs are 2 step or 3 step sticks more or less susceptible or equal

#3-Does indavidual step type matter and of the step designs are solid non- folding single steps, single folding steps or double folding steps less more or equally susceptible to kicking out

Besides three practice sessions with my OLW 32" sticks long ago I have no other practical experience with climbing sticks.
Having said that I suspect the among the two most likely causes for sticks kicking out would be #1-improper installation and or loosely installed #2-Excessive side pressure

But as I said my first hand personal experience with sticks is essentially non exisistant and none of my friends use them so I have no reliable personal first hand experience to call upon.
And I've never seen kick out or its causes discussed at any hunting website that I can recall.
I realize it is very unlikely any actual studies on climbing stick failures or mishaps and the causes for same has actually ever been done but I felt if any place would have at least some idea on such data websites like this wod be among the best places to inquire.

20 years + of using lone wolf sticks i haven’t even come close to having a stick kick out.

User error, new fangled stuff with a poor design, or DIYers pushing things too far.

Use as designed by reputable vendor and you’ll not have an issue.