Maybe if you let the stray cats live and kill more song birds it would trigger them to lay more eggs?
-
The SH Membership has gone live. Only SH Members have access to post in the classifieds. All members can view the classifieds. Starting in 2020 only SH Members will be admitted to the annual hunting contest. Current members will need to follow these steps to upgrade: 1. Click on your username 2. Click on Account upgrades 3. Choose SH Member and purchase.
-
We've been working hard the past few weeks to come up with some big changes to our vendor policies to meet the changing needs of our community. Please see the new vendor rules here: Vendor Access Area Rules
Coyotes... Shoot or pass?
- Thread starter DB4x4
- Start date
Shoot them if you value their pelt. Shooting and leaving to rot in the woods is a waste and not in the spirit of the north american model of wildlife conservation. Thinking you're saving fawns by shooting a couple of coyotes (especially if you have black bears where you live) is not supported by any manner of legitimate scientific research.
If it was backed up by scientific evidence then perhaps your attempt at humor would make sense. Alas, mouth breathers gonna mouth breathe.
Santa Claus farms reindeer, a known method of spreading CWD. I don’t take too kindly to Santa Clauses and shoot one any chance I get. Shoot them all and let God sort them out. You get it.
Hmmm... sounding more and more like the Leatherwall. Congrats!
Last edited:
I was never a wildlife management major, but my academic adviser for 2 years is a relatively famous one, and I shared lab space with his students doing wildlife population modeling and took the courses on that area (and co-taught one). I also did similar enough research that I am comfortable speaking about mathematical ecology.
The logistic (S-curve) is often assumed to be a starting point to model density-dependent population growth over time. It is basically taking exponential growth (like how we know viruses take off in the body, where the more viruses there are the more can reproduce....so successive doubling makes the population start exploding).....but the exponential growth is hampered by an estimated carrying capacity (K).
Check out this S-curve here.
courses.lumenlearning.com
Now, looking at the graph, think of plotting population Vs population growth rate. That would be taking the value on the y-axis and making it the x-axis and making the y-axis the slope of the logistic growth line at that point. It looks like a snow globe where maximum population growth is in the middle where you have plenty of coyotes to reproduce (in this case) and you are relatively far from the carrying capacity.
This is called maximum sustainable yield (MSY) (figure 2). The high point on the "snow globe" is at the population where you get the really steep section on the logistic curve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_sustainable_yield
This model makes some assumptions about boundaries (that animal migration is a net zero across the boundary). You have to make the model more complex to take into account migration as a result of various changes, hunting, etc.
Hunting will never increase their numbers beyond the carrying capacity of that particular piece of land (given everything else about it). However, if the 'yotes are to the right of that high point on the MSY curve, then killing some at some rate per year can increase their growth rate, but it will not increase their population. The trick is not confusing population size vs. population growth rate (number of new 'yotes per reproductive female). Even if the population is fenced in, killing some each each year will never increase the total population in that area. It might increase growth rate (if you are to the right of your hump on the curve) but will not increase total population. The amount you take to increase the growth exceeds the amount of increased growth.
The trick is for folks (one savage or several mini-savages) to kill enough to get to the left on that MSY curve. The coyotes are far from carrying capacity but they just don't have enough population to where doubling the population is a worry (4 going to 16 in one season is no comparison to going from 200 to 400).
Hunting coyotes in some area (a single WMA) will not increase the population within it based upon basic approaches. Will it disperse coyotes? It's definitely possible. Will that increase population outside the area you are hunting? Maybe.
I would have to dig into field research of coyotes. I just know that a writer in some hunting magazine might get some of the points I outlined wrong. The science behind predators helping ecosystems has to do largely with increasing total species diversity and not helping their prey items.
EDIT: My state used to have gray wolves. They were hunted until they are now extirpated. If hunting helped them, then I should instead be up to my knees in them. If the question is "does killing a single coyote you see do any real good regarding increasing deer population?", then probably not. But it reminds me of not voting because a single person's vote doesn't count. Well, it counts if I vote many times in the same election and also even if one vote doesn't sway the election, then the vote of every vote together does. Wolves are absent from WV because people shot them when they saw them. I wouldn't mind if the same thing happened to coyotes (again, as the population was much lower in the past than it is now).
The logistic (S-curve) is often assumed to be a starting point to model density-dependent population growth over time. It is basically taking exponential growth (like how we know viruses take off in the body, where the more viruses there are the more can reproduce....so successive doubling makes the population start exploding).....but the exponential growth is hampered by an estimated carrying capacity (K).
Check out this S-curve here.
Environmental Limits to Population Growth | Boundless Biology
courses.lumenlearning.com
Now, looking at the graph, think of plotting population Vs population growth rate. That would be taking the value on the y-axis and making it the x-axis and making the y-axis the slope of the logistic growth line at that point. It looks like a snow globe where maximum population growth is in the middle where you have plenty of coyotes to reproduce (in this case) and you are relatively far from the carrying capacity.
This is called maximum sustainable yield (MSY) (figure 2). The high point on the "snow globe" is at the population where you get the really steep section on the logistic curve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_sustainable_yield
This model makes some assumptions about boundaries (that animal migration is a net zero across the boundary). You have to make the model more complex to take into account migration as a result of various changes, hunting, etc.
Hunting will never increase their numbers beyond the carrying capacity of that particular piece of land (given everything else about it). However, if the 'yotes are to the right of that high point on the MSY curve, then killing some at some rate per year can increase their growth rate, but it will not increase their population. The trick is not confusing population size vs. population growth rate (number of new 'yotes per reproductive female). Even if the population is fenced in, killing some each each year will never increase the total population in that area. It might increase growth rate (if you are to the right of your hump on the curve) but will not increase total population. The amount you take to increase the growth exceeds the amount of increased growth.
The trick is for folks (one savage or several mini-savages) to kill enough to get to the left on that MSY curve. The coyotes are far from carrying capacity but they just don't have enough population to where doubling the population is a worry (4 going to 16 in one season is no comparison to going from 200 to 400).
Hunting coyotes in some area (a single WMA) will not increase the population within it based upon basic approaches. Will it disperse coyotes? It's definitely possible. Will that increase population outside the area you are hunting? Maybe.
I would have to dig into field research of coyotes. I just know that a writer in some hunting magazine might get some of the points I outlined wrong. The science behind predators helping ecosystems has to do largely with increasing total species diversity and not helping their prey items.
EDIT: My state used to have gray wolves. They were hunted until they are now extirpated. If hunting helped them, then I should instead be up to my knees in them. If the question is "does killing a single coyote you see do any real good regarding increasing deer population?", then probably not. But it reminds me of not voting because a single person's vote doesn't count. Well, it counts if I vote many times in the same election and also even if one vote doesn't sway the election, then the vote of every vote together does. Wolves are absent from WV because people shot them when they saw them. I wouldn't mind if the same thing happened to coyotes (again, as the population was much lower in the past than it is now).
Last edited:
I was never a wildlife management major, but my academic adviser for 2 years is a relatively famous one, and I shared lab space with his students doing wildlife population modeling and took the courses on that area (and co-taught one). I also did similar enough research that I am comfortable speaking about mathematical ecology.
The logistic (S-curve) is often assumed to be a starting point to model density-dependent population growth over time. It is basically taking exponential growth (like how we know viruses take off in the body, where the more viruses there are the more can reproduce....so successive doubling makes the population start exploding).....but the exponential growth is hampered by an estimated carrying capacity (K).
Check out this S-curve here.
Environmental Limits to Population Growth | Boundless Biology
Now, looking at the graph, think of plotting population Vs population growth rate. That would be taking the value on the y-axis and making it the x-axis and making the y-axis the slope of the logistic growth line at that point. It looks like a snow globe where maximum population growth is in the middle where you have plenty of coyotes to reproduce (in this case) and you are relatively far from the carrying capacity.
This is called maximum sustainable yield (MSY) (figure 2). The high point on the "snow globe" is at the population where you get the really steep section on the logistic curve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_sustainable_yield
This model makes some assumptions about boundaries (that animal migration is a net zero across the boundary). You have to make the model more complex to take into account migration as a result of various changes, hunting, etc.
Hunting will never increase their numbers beyond the carrying capacity of that particular piece of land (given everything else about it). However, if the 'yotes are to the right of that high point on the MSY curve, then killing some at some rate per year can increase their growth rate, but it will not increase their population. The trick is not confusing population size vs. population growth rate (number of new 'yotes per reproductive female). Even if the population is fenced in, killing some each each year will never increase the total population in that area. It might increase growth rate (if you are to the right of your hump on the curve) but will not increase total population. The amount you take to increase the growth exceeds the amount of increased growth.
The trick is for folks (one savage or several mini-savages) to kill enough to get to the left on that MSY curve. The coyotes are far from carrying capacity but they just don't have enough population to where doubling the population is a worry (4 going to 16 in one season is no comparison to going from 200 to 400).
Hunting coyotes in some area (a single WMA) will not increase the population within it based upon basic approaches. Will it disperse coyotes? It's definitely possible. Will that increase population outside the area you are hunting? Maybe.
I would have to dig into field research of coyotes. I just know that a writer in some hunting magazine might get some of the points I outlined wrong. The science behind predators helping ecosystems has to do largely with increasing total species diversity and not helping their prey items.
So, the real answer is ultimately always going to be carrying capacity. Hunting them will never increase their population. Neither would not hunting them based off that logic. They will always be constrained by the carrying capacity. Is that not correct? Kill one, another one now has more food to live and reproduce. Don’t kill one and another is born and there isn’t enough food for both of them survive, unless they weren’t at carrying capacity.
Pardon my tone if it sounds contentious. Not intended.
Edit:
wolves are not coyotes. The reason people were able to kill wolves to the point of extirpation is because of the behavioral differences between the species. Wolves are familial pack animals. They tend to want to stay together. While coyotes do live as packs, they tend to hunt or in pairs. Wolves were easier to eradicate because they would come to the scent of an already trapped or dead pack member. It is inconceivable that people didn’t shoot coyotes as often as they did wolves when they were being eradicated. Yet, we had two different outcomes. Wolves were extirpated, coyotes spread across the continent.
Last edited:
Not really.
Carrying capacity for a coyote would have many components, one of which the number of deer present. Actually, the coyotes lower their own carrying capacity in this case. You start out with the carrying capacity given a deer population without coyotes and as the coyotes prosper they decrease deer numbers and therefore the target carrying capacity. The carrying capacity goes down as coyote population increases so that they meet and actually can fluctuate cyclically around each other (e.g. a disease takes out some coyotes (mange?) and that make carrying capacity go up, etc).
Now, just because the coyotes currently have X carrying capacity (2 per sq mile, I don't know), doesn't mean that they are destined for it. Killing them in sufficient numbers will keep them from being at the carrying capacity. If you kill enough that you get them to a population lower than the population at their maximum sustained yield (which is the population at the steepest part of that s-curve), then every kill actually decreases population AND population growth rate.
Maximum sustainable yield - Wikipedia
Let's say that coyote carrying capacity is 1,000 animals and the point of maximum growth is half of that. If you kill enough coyotes to get them from 1,000 to 500, then you have increased their growth rate while decreasing their population. You have set them up so that they could bounce back quick, especially if hunting pressure was decreased. Instead, imagine killing them enough so that they are at 250 animals (these are all made up numbers), their population growth is now lower than maximum. You have given them all they need to eat and survive (being far from carrying capacity) but there simply aren't enough coyotes for the population to really increase quickly. You can see this by doubling (or multiplying by some of factor) a small vs a larger number.
Last edited:
Good point about wolves being easier to kill. I used it more to demonstrate that killing something doesn't help its total population.
If my memory is correct, coyotes had higher numbers in the past, the numbers were decreased by humans, and much of the current spread is them increasing in numbers within what was their historic range. Check me on that.
(EDIT: I'm wrong. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5974007/ I guess these suckers are just hard to kill, but I think we should keep at it!)
I don't want coyotes to be extinct. But I would be happy if a lot of people decided to hunt them. It sounds to me like a fun way to be outdoors when it isn't deer season.
There is a local area (rural community in the woods surrounded by 1,000s of acres of forest) where coyotes took off and they were killing pets. There is also a local hunting club where folks share private land access so long as you have land to put in. They got together and drastically decreased the coyote numbers over several years.
Last edited:
And I’m not saying don’t shoot coyotes. But without sound management criteria and data to back it up, saying killing a bunch of coyotes increases deer heard numbers in the face of data saying otherwise it’s also incorrect.
Killing coyotes might not help its numbers, and I don’t think I meant to argue that point. Just pointing out that they have a physiological response to hunting pressure that might be counterproductive to hunting them. Killing them might not hurt their numbers in that case either.
Did you link to anything showing that coyote hunting doesn't help deer?
I would be interested in the question "does increased coyote populations hurt deer numbers?"
If the answer is yes, then I'd say the reason that hunting coyotes doesn't help deer is because we aren't hunting them enough to show the effect.
Do Coyotes Eat Deer? Yes, But Not As Many As You'd Think
Coyotes are skilled hunters and can affect a deer herd’s size, but they can’t cause its decline on their own.
This was just a quick search to your question.
It seems even biologists don’t believe it is possible to sustain the level of coyote hunting that would make the difference. And we had bounties that didn’t get the job done. The coyotes just spread across the continent.
And another interesting article. Seems people illegally transporting coyotes helped their spread. Still, none of these professionals seem to think hunting them will affect deer heard numbers.
www.fs.usda.gov
Study Concludes Coyotes Help Manage Deer Population in Southeast U.S. | US Forest Service
The wily canine thrives in its adopted region but questions remain about its impact on other species
Never shot one. I don’t like killing things I can’t use... but I’ve never scolded anyone for killing one, that’s on your conscious, not mine. I do think if you’re going to kill one, it should be ethical. All living things deserve that respect.... with the exception of some humans maybe 
Do Coyotes Eat Deer? Yes, But Not As Many As You'd Think
Coyotes are skilled hunters and can affect a deer herd’s size, but they can’t cause its decline on their own.www.themeateater.com
This was just a quick search to your question.
It seems even biologists don’t believe it is possible to sustain the level of coyote hunting that would make the difference. And we had bounties that didn’t get the job done. The coyotes just spread across the continent.
From the article's intro:
"But here’s something most deer hunters hate to hear: No matter how many coyotes you shoot, they’ll still be hell on fawns.
Coyotes can affect a deer herd’s size, but they can’t cause its decline on their own. Granted, when deer numbers are low, coyotes can keep them there. In fact, they can drive them even lower unless wildlife managers reduce hunting quotas for antlerless deer. However, the bigger factors affecting deer numbers are habitat quality and extreme weather, such as prolonged drought in arid climates and deep snow with subzero winters in the North."
That quote contradicts itself and also throws in a non sequitur. The experts he quotes later basically say "killing coyotes will help deer, but it is really hard to do right, and so probably won't be done".
Last edited:
Never shot one. I don’t like killing things I can’t use... but I’ve never scolded anyone for killing one, that’s on your conscious, not mine. I do think if you’re going to kill one, it should be ethical. All living things deserve that respect.... with the exception of some humans maybe
Absolutely. I even kill spiders humanely when possible and even throw them outside when feasible.
Found a spider in the basement the other night. My wife said, "Don't kill him, just take him out."
... So I did. We went to a bar, had a few drinks. Cool guy. Turns out he wants to be a web developer.
I spend off season hunting those sound dogs with calls and running them with hounds and trapping (futile attempts mostly)...I carry an open reed call and you bet I’ll shoot them hit two with a bow this season one did the death spin other ran off to be eaten by his peers