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Rod Jenkins, Joel Turner, or Tom Clum?

Allegheny Tom

Allegheny Tom

Well-Known Member
SH Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
6,053
Location
Western Pennsylvania
I'll be brutally honest with you guys (and with myself). I'm just an okay trad shooter. I'm self taught, and not a bad shot. I've killed ~40 deer with my recurve. I'm probably a better hunter than I am a shooter. I seldom miss a deer because I get close and don't shoot past my effective range, but I have had some less than perfect shots. I definitely have room for improvement, no doubt about that.
That thread on shooting 3 under got me to re-visit shooting 3 under and it gave me the gut-feeling that I might be moving in the right direction towards being a better shooter.
Last year, I re-built my arrow because I wanted it to be the best it could be, so why not work on my shooting form to be the best that I can be?

So for you guys that have taken classes from any (or all 3) of these guys, who would be the better choice for a hunting style of trad instruction?
Thanks.
 
I haven't taken any classes but I've watched a lot of Tom Clum's stuff and his explanation on how to develop, understand and feel back tension is just so incredibly intuitive. It has helped me with my release shooting because I now much better understand how to know back tension. Seriously worth the investment in time to watch some of his videos. There is one where he is putting on a seminar and the depth and breadth of his knowledge is just incredible. In fairness to the other two, have not watched much of their stuff... yet. I do know both Tom Clum and Joel Turner have affiliations/ and or associations with The Push.
 
woodsdog2 said:
I haven't taken any classes but I've watched a lot of Tom Clum's stuff and his explanation on how to develop, understand and feel back tension is just so incredibly intuitive. It has helped me with my release shooting because I now much better understand how to know back tension. Seriously worth the investment in time to watch some of his videos. There is one where he is putting on a seminar and the depth and breadth of his knowledge is just incredible. In fairness to the other two, have not watched much of their stuff... yet. I do know both Tom Clum and Joel Turner have affiliations/ and or associations with The Push.
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If you go to The Push Archery, you'll see the P.A.C.K. (Push Archery Center of Knowledge). They offer classes from various instructors.
 
Tom and Joel' courses really focus on different things. I purchased Tom Clum's course Solid Archery Mechanics. It focuses almost entirely on form and the shot sequence. I am definitely glad I purchased it and there were little things that I picked up that I felt improved my form and my shot. Joel's teachings focus on the mental side of the shot. I have not purchased his course but, he gives away a ton of information on his podcasts, as does Tom.

With that said, even though I have not purchased Joel's course and I don't completely subscribe to his process, I feel that listening to him had the biggest impact for me personally. I have always had problems with my brain getting in the way. I would try to "aim extra hard" which would result in me sometimes shooting more split vision, sometimes more instinctively, and never consistently. The biggest thing I got from listening to Joel is to quit trying to 'aim better'. Now I just watch the spot I want to hit and focus on nothing but back tension and my shot has greatly improved because of it.

The advice I would give is to watch Tom's Kalamazoo seminar on YouTube and listen to every podcast you can with Joel. I think you will then have a good idea about which course would be better for you personally.
 
Following. I have only been shooting a longbow/recurve for going on 6 years. I truly enjoy traditional shooting. I myself have followed Joel Turner and Tom Clum through their instructional online courses and have been really impressed by both. Most recently I’ve gone through Tom Clums and I’m still digesting all the info. With that being said, I’m definitely planning on purchasing the Roots course with Rod Jenkins and Jimmy Blackmon in the near future. I really enjoy learning and taking in as much as I can and using what works for me and I feel comfortable with.
 
Allegheny Tom said:
I'll be brutally honest with you guys (and with myself). I'm just an okay trad shooter. I'm self taught, and not a bad shot. I've killed ~40 deer with my recurve. I'm probably a better hunter than I am a shooter. I seldom miss a deer because I get close and don't shoot past my effective range, but I have had some less than perfect shots. I definitely have room for improvement, no doubt about that.
That thread on shooting 3 under got me to re-visit shooting 3 under and it gave me the gut-feeling that I might be moving in the right direction towards being a better shooter.
Last year, I re-built my arrow because I wanted it to be the best it could be, so why not work on my shooting form to be the best that I can be?

So for you guys that have taken classes from any (or all 3) of these guys, who would be the better choice for a hunting style of trad instruction?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

Tom, good on you for wanting to improve, there’s always room. Years ago I seriously thought about going to one Fred Asbell’s classes. Never did. Thought of going to the Wensel’s classes on hunting. Never did. Either time or money factored in. Nowadays you can get some good (and not so good) instruction on the YouTube’s :) A few years back when the hunting was done, I spent the late winter and spring working on my form by shooting at a target just a few feet away with my eyes closed most of the time. I focused on the shot sequence trying to feel every aspect of it, especially the release. That was the best thing I ever did for improvement. Probably could use a tune up now.

BTW, I have met Rod Jenkins and when I was in the archery biz we used to do some product swapping. Solid guy and great shooter.
 
Heydeerman said:
Tom, good on you for wanting to improve, there’s always room. Years ago I seriously thought about going to one Fred Asbell’s classes. Never did. Thought of going to the Wensel’s classes on hunting. Never did. Either time or money factored in. Nowadays you can get some good (and not so good) instruction on the YouTube’s :) A few years back when the hunting was done, I spent the late winter and spring working on my form by shooting at a target just a few feet away with my eyes closed most of the time. I focused on the shot sequence trying to feel every aspect of it, especially the release. That was the best thing I ever did for improvement. Probably could use a tune up now.

BTW, I have met Rod Jenkins and when I was in the archery biz we used to do some product swapping. Solid guy and great shooter.
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I did attend Barry's bootcamp. I can't say that I learned a whole lot, but I attribute that to the fact that I was already a Wensel junkie. I'd followed everything those guy wrote since the early 1980s. Going to bootcamp confirmed to me that I was already doing a lot of things right. I guess that's a good thing about getting instruction from someone more qualified...it helps reconfirm in your head how to separate the right from the wrong.
I've read a number of Asbell's writings, and unless I'm not remembering correctly, I think he advocates a swing draw. As a tree-sitting whitetail hunter, I highly disagree with a swing draw for my style of hunting. Swing might be okay for ground hunting or target shooting but I feel it's just too much movement in the presence of game or from a tree surrounded by limbs and other cover. But that's just my opinion on a swing draw.
Not sure I would want to take a shooting course from someone that would disagree with my style of hunting.
 
I don’t recall seeing him shoot with a swing draw in any of his videos.

Maybe that was Gene? Who was in Bowhunting October Whitetails?
BTW, for all those new to this trad stuff that’s an oldie but goodie to watch.
 
Heydeerman said:
I don’t recall seeing him shoot with a swing draw in any of his videos.

Maybe that was Gene? Who was in Bowhunting October Whitetails?
BTW, for all those new to this trad stuff that’s an oldie but goodie to watch.
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I have Asbell's book on instinctive shooting. I swear I read about the swing draw in there. Or maybe in a TB magazine??
Im gonna have to look in that book again.
 
If anybody wants a couple free nuggets of insight please go listen to the most recent Stickbow Chronicles episode with Rod Jenkins. The intro clip really hit home for me.

If I take a course I’m going to buy the Roots segment with Rod Jenkins and Jimmy Blackmon. That’s another guy with incredible shot discipline.

I would be most interested in a one on one course with Rod, Jimmy, or Tom Clum.
 
JSEXTON23 said:
If anybody wants a couple free nuggets of insight please go listen to the most recent Stickbow Chronicles episode with Rod Jenkins. The intro clip really hit home for me.

If I take a course I’m going to buy the Roots segment with Rod Jenkins and Jimmy Blackmon. That’s another guy with incredible shot discipline.

I would be most interested in a one on one course with Rod, Jimmy, or Tom Clum.
Click to expand...
Question...are most of these gurus shooting 3 under? Seems like the vids I've seen show they are.
I gotta say that I was shooting 3 under again today and it's working really well. (ask the chipmunk).
For some reason, I can concentrate on my form much better with 3 under than I can with split finger. I feel like I'm 90% there, but I'd still like to take a class. It would be worth the $200 if they told me to just keep doing what I'm doing, although I don't expect to hear that. I'm positive that there's a few things (maybe more than a few) that needs work.
 
Heydeerman said:
I don’t recall seeing him shoot with a swing draw in any of his videos.

Maybe that was Gene? Who was in Bowhunting October Whitetails?
BTW, for all those new to this trad stuff that’s an oldie but goodie to watch.
Click to expand...
Bowhunting October Whitetails was awesome! I still have it. Whatever happened to the guy that did the corn field stalking and was kind of the coordinator of the video?
 
Allegheny Tom said:
Question...are most of these gurus shooting 3 under? Seems like the vids I've seen show they are.
I gotta say that I was shooting 3 under again today and it's working really well. (ask the chipmunk).
For some reason, I can concentrate on my form much better with 3 under than I can with split finger. I feel like I'm 90% there, but I'd still like to take a class. It would be worth the $200 if they told me to just keep doing what I'm doing, although I don't expect to hear that. I'm positive that there's a few things (maybe more than a few) that needs work.
Click to expand...
I think they are all 3 under.

Tom, do be mindful, and I’m not trying to tear you down here, that a change to our shooting can often temporarily trick the subconscious. Over time the subconscious wants to autopilot that shot process. Not saying that’s going to happen and I certainly do not want that. It’s just the way our monkey brain works. It happens to be if I make a change. I think I’ve hit the secret formula, then a few weeks later the ugly monster creeps in because I get complacent. I’m glad your shooting well and feeling like you’ve made a positive step. I hope it continues.
 
I think Tom shoots split finger.

Screenshot_20210808-165652.png

Honestly, having the arrow closer to your eye does help. It probably helped me more than most because I have a low anchor to begin with. But, to @JSEXTON23's point though, at the same time that I made the switch to three under I was going through Tom's course and was also focusing on my form and making some other tweaks. The biggest difference is very possibly that I am now focusing on all aspects of my form.
 
JSEXTON23 said:
I think they are all 3 under.

Tom, do be mindful, and I’m not trying to tear you down here, that a change to our shooting can often temporarily trick the subconscious. Over time the subconscious wants to autopilot that shot process. Not saying that’s going to happen and I certainly do not want that. It’s just the way our monkey brain works. It happens to be if I make a change. I think I’ve hit the secret formula, then a few weeks later the ugly monster creeps in because I get complacent. I’m glad your shooting well and feeling like you’ve made a positive step. I hope it continues.
Click to expand...
I hear you. I've experienced the same thing in the past, but my gut is saying that it's different this time. I will keep an eye out for the ugly monster of unconfidence creeps back in but I fully agree with what you said earlier about picking up a few gems from the Jenkins intro. I did too and I can say that while I'm not executing every shot perfectly, I AM identifying what I've done wrong and I sure can feel when it's "right".
Rod says to shoot with confidence. I've shot a couple hundred arrows in the last couple days and its feeling better than it has in 30 years of trad.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
 
GCTerpfan said:
I think Tom shoots split finger.

View attachment 50673

Honestly, having the arrow closer to your eye does help. It probably helped me more than most because I have a low anchor to begin with. But, to @JSEXTON23'
......The biggest difference is very possibly that I am now focusing on all aspects of my form.
Click to expand...
Even though its only been a few days, I truly believe that's what's going on with me since I started 3 under.
My alignment is better and my back tension is better. Not on every shot but when I screw up I usually know why.
Before...I would often scratch my head after the shot wondering what went wrong.



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woodsdog2 said:
Bowhunting October Whitetails was awesome! I still have it. Whatever happened to the guy that did the corn field stalking and was kind of the coordinator of the video?
Click to expand...

About the time I saw that part about hunting in the corn I read an article in Bowhunter magazine about hunting in the corn I tried it the next season and killed 3 deer, all real close. That was the last 3 deer I killed with a compound.
 
What kind of shooting were you doing before 3 under that made you want to change? I guess how accurate were you (shot grouping with how many outliers at what yardage) with split shooting? I guess what I’m wondering is what was off?
 
@Allegheny Tom I took Joel’s course at Tom’s shop (RMSG). I had the best of both worlds at the same time. The advise you have received above is outstanding.

Your initial question, however, can only be answered by you…..Mental (Joel) or Physical (Tom)? They do overlap

I’m NOT an expert, but I would bet my last dollar that you are already VERY solid in both realms (physical and mental). My free, and worthless, advise would be to not overthink a problem that doesn’t exist ( I bet you would give me the same advice if our roles were reversed).

Be Safe and Have Fun!
 
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