Pods

[gcr0003]

Same. I have almost 0 ability to empathize with non humans. I've put down 2 family pets and have slit a lot of throats and bitten a lot of heads.

I acknowledge that as a defect. I recognize that most people do empathize with other sentient animals, and I hope my kid has more of that than I do, even if it keeps them from hunting.

Nvm, theres the ole nutterbuster we all know. So how does not empathizing with the game play into you wanting to make more ethical kills. If you don't care then why do you care? If I am understanding you sort of?

 

[brydan]

First off, I appreciate that many are reading up on the subject instead of knee jerk reactions. When I moved to the south I'd never heard of pods before either but was hunting in MS and I knew some people using them. So I did a lot of reading on it first and I found the history of it use quite interesting. My synopsis of it was basically, we want to improve recovery rates to improve public perception and got it started. It's use declined for the same reason, if people think we need pods to kill deer they'll want to ban archery. Two sides of the same coin.

Personally, I don't care about anything other than a quick kill and 100% recovery if at all possible. I think we owe that to the animals we're hunting. I used to hunt in MS and knew people that used pods and they didn't take archery any less serious than anybody else so I don't have a negative view of them. The what ifs about what people will do? There's always low life's who will do stupid things and at some point we have to make decisions about what responsible people do instead making rules for the rule breakers

 

[Nutterbuster]

Well first I would say, like I've been saying a bunch lately, you've really changed! Then I would say how does that not turn to whoever wanting to ban gun hunting next? Plenty of people lose, gut shot, etc deer every year with guns as well. What is stopping them from banning hunting altogether then? Hunting has the risk of injuring an animal and I don't think any regulation is going to minimize that enough because you still have human error as well as the complexity of the game doing who knows what as youre trying to kill it.

My thoughts (and they're just that, just mine and just thoughts) go like this.

Do we eat meat, knowing it is a relatively inefficient way of converting solar energy to calories for people and that it comes with side effects of cruelty to sentient animals and an impact to the overall ecosystem?

If no, hunting is obviously out.

If yes, then the question becomes how do we get the most meat with the least suffering and environmental impact.

I think hunting beats factory farming for sure. I'm not sure how it stacks with small-scale farming with the specific goal of reducing harm.

From there, I think the question is how do hunters reduce environmental impact and reduce suffering. I'd be for a hard look at a lot of atv use, species-specific management, supplemental feeding, travelling to hunt, trophy taking, and harvest methods.

I don't think we can currently in good faith eliminate hunting given how we get the bulk of our calories. But, I have a knee-jerk reaction against anybody who tells me there's a question I shouldn't bring up. Either it's fine, in which case there's no harm questioning the belief, or it's a bad belief, in which case it needs to go.

 

[krub6b]

Same. I have almost 0 ability to empathize with non humans. I've put down 2 family pets and have slit a lot of throats and bitten a lot of heads.

I acknowledge that as a defect. I recognize that most people do empathize with other sentient animals, and I hope my kid has more of that than I do, even if it keeps them from hunting.

Why is that a defect? That ability to be cold when needed or even all the time is what allowed our ancestors to live long enough to beget our closer ancestors. In a world that keeps getting softer, the ability to be hard when needed or constantly keeps getting a bad rep and I for one don't see an actual reason to suppress that part of humanity

 

[thedutchtouch]

Seems like the thread is trending towards kill ethics which is fine, but since ethics are personal not sure if we'll ever reach consensus. That's one of the reasons I treat this as a "what's in my food" issue. As I feel like there's more potential for overlap, not too many people want as many chemicals in their wild game as possible. I've already decided I'm going to kill animals to eat them so have made a whole range of ethical decisions already. If I get a good one I may save a piece as a momento/trophy to remind myself of the hunt after the burgers are gone, but ultimately my decision (and if I had the chance, vote about legality) comes down to what I want to eat, not how I want you to kill your quarry.

Now if we're talking predators... The calculus changes, unless it's one of the few that people eat.

 

[kyler1945]

Seems like the thread is trending towards kill ethics which is fine, but since ethics are personal not sure if we'll ever reach consensus. That's one of the reasons I treat this as a "what's in my food" issue. As I feel like there's more potential for overlap, not too many people want as many chemicals in their wild game as possible. I've already decided I'm going to kill animals to eat them so have made a whole range of ethical decisions already. If I get a good one I may save a piece as a momento/trophy to remind myself of the hunt after the burgers are gone, but ultimately my decision (and if I had the chance, vote about legality) comes down to what I want to eat, not how I want you to kill your quarry.

Now if we're talking predators... The calculus changes, unless it's one of the few that people eat.

Anectane won’t hurt you if you eat meat of an animal that’s been shot with it. Don’t take my word for it, I’m not a medical professional. But you can find your answers easily.

This isn’t an issue. This isn’t Disney princess story poison.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Nvm, theres the ole nutterbuster we all know. So how does not empathizing with the game play into you wanting to make more ethical kills. If you don't care then why do you care? If I am understanding you sort of?

I mean, I also have no emotional reaction to the fact that the battery in this phone was mined by a kid who lives in abject poverty and will probably die of cancer best case scenario. Nor do I have an emotional response to the idea that the UN and WHO recognize that millions of slaves still exist around the world.

On the other hand, it does resonate with me that some estimates conclude that 1 in every 4 women in the US will suffer rape or attempted rape, and my personal knowledge of my immediate family validates that number.

But at the end of the day, emotions aside, I recognize that the first 2 things probably are worse than the third.

I think that when we're killing 8x the global human population of chickens each year (50 billion), plus all the other animals; and we're not really sure to what extent they're capable of suffering (but the line between us and them gets thinner each year as far as neuroscientists are concerned)...we have a massive problem to look into.

I recognize the problem on an intellectual level, but not an emotional one. I couldn't crush a human child's head, but I can bite a ducks with no problem, despite the fact that I know they both feel about the same thing. Given that, I'm quite open to discussions and reconsidering the norms I've been raised with.

 

[rhagenw]

I'm against using them for ME, I believe it takes the sport out of hunting. Saying that I could care less what others do, or think. But if we are hunting for meat and meat only, you will be better off having small livestock like rabbits and chickens.

 

[kyler1945]

I’ll probably refrain from going too deep on this topic. It ends in political and religious discourse.

I operate off of different priors than many folk. I don’t think we have dominion over the earth or other animals by decree. I don’t think that we hunt solely for meat, or because we “enjoy hunting”. I think we hunt because we want other people’s approval. Because we’ve evolved with a strong instinct to get other monkeys to like us. Given that’ I think that’s why we’re really hunting, it’s much easier to see the case for pods.

I also think that there’s a lot of overlap in my priors, and how to operate on them, with those that think the big guy told em to do it, and those that think we hunt for meat and “tradition”. And pods likely end up on the positive side of the ledger if some honest discussions are had in good faith.

I can tel you some things that will happen regardless of pods being legal: people will make terrible shots on deer, deer will suffer, and people wil break the law repeatedly and reliably. All those things happen because people think they have dominion over critters, and because they want other monkeys to like them. Not because we allow a more efficient tool to be used or not.

 

[thedutchtouch]

Anectane won’t hurt you if you eat meat of an animal that’s been shot with it. Don’t take my word for it, I’m not a medical professional. But you can find your answers easily.

This isn’t an issue. This isn’t Disney princess story poison.

Initial googling provides some anecdotes that agree with you, however msds sheet disagrees. Like I said if it's proven safe I don't see as much of an issue, I'm ignorant/uninformed even though I keep talking lol. Ultimately someone smarter than me needs to decide, but there certainly does seem like a slippery slope for people to use their own "special blend" and then who knows what's getting shot into animals. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...kQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2PP7IvG7o-NX5XTWSReSdM

 

[kyler1945]

Initial googling provides some anecdotes that agree with you, however msds sheet disagrees. Like I said if it's proven safe I don't see as much of an issue, I'm ignorant/uninformed even though I keep talking lol. Ultimately someone smarter than me needs to decide, but there certainly does seem like a slippery slope for people to use their own "special blend" and then who knows what's getting shot into animals. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...kQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2PP7IvG7o-NX5XTWSReSdM

People blow themselves up cooking Meth every day. You don’t think there are hill people out there dipping arrows in all kinds of stuff and shooting your precious deer before you do?

 

[krub6b]

People blow themselves up cooking Meth every day. You don’t think there are hill people out there dipping arrows in all kinds of stuff and shooting your precious deer before you do?

its hard to shoot a crossbow when you're that jittery, much less a compound. and meth heads tend to be less than hungry more often than not

 

[thedutchtouch]

People blow themselves up cooking Meth every day. You don’t think there are hill people out there dipping arrows in all kinds of stuff and shooting your precious deer before you do?

No, of course not! Lol but realistically no, I think the hunters that try to maximize their efficiency in my home state use corn illegally, not poison. And a benefit of 2/3 of my deer being young is not many people have had a crack at them before lol!

 

[gcr0003]

I’ll probably refrain from going too deep on this topic. It ends in political and religious discourse.

I operate off of different priors than many folk. I don’t think we have dominion over the earth or other animals by decree. I don’t think that we hunt solely for meat, or because we “enjoy hunting”. I think we hunt because we want other people’s approval. Because we’ve evolved with a strong instinct to get other monkeys to like us. Given that’ I think that’s why we’re really hunting, it’s much easier to see the case for pods.

I also think that there’s a lot of overlap in my priors, and how to operate on them, with those that think the big guy told em to do it, and those that think we hunt for meat and “tradition”. And pods likely end up on the positive side of the ledger if some honest discussions are had in good faith.

I can tel you some things that will happen regardless of pods being legal: people will make terrible shots on deer, deer will suffer, and people wil break the law repeatedly and reliably. All those things happen because people think they have dominion over critters, and because they want other monkeys to like them. Not because we allow a more efficient tool to be used or not.

So you you're saying you hunt neither out of enjoyment nor tradition, nor fellowship but for the sole purpose of other peoples approval? I can concede that their is a large aspect of showing off your successes and hunts (especially in the age of internet and social media) but I would disagree that that is everyones or the majority of people's primary motive. I think it is multifaceted and the level and degree for each person varies.

I agree with your last statement, generally speaking, that regardless of rules and regulations those things will still occur.

 

[kyler1945]

So you you're saying you hunt neither out of enjoyment nor tradition, nor fellowship but for the sole purpose of other peoples approval? I can concede that their is a large aspect of showing off your successes and hunts (especially in the age of internet and social media) but I would disagree that that is everyones or the majority of people's primary motive. I think it is multifaceted and the level and degree for each person varies.

I agree with your last statement, generally speaking, that regardless of rules and regulations those things will still occur.

If you take people at their word on why they do things, then I can see how you might think people hunt for the reasons they say.

I just prefer to see things through an evolutionary lens. It all starts to make more sense then.


I prefer to work with human nature, and guide it in whatever direction we want it to go. I’ve watched the futility of trying to ignore and deter it.

You want to make progress in any human endeavor? Throw slavery at it, or make it cool to be a part of it.

Why does making something cool get it done? Because we all want the other monkeys to like us.

 

[The_Fit_Ness_Monster]

I think most people get too caught up in gear and gadgets and methods and too deep in the weeds when ultimately we should all be most worried about being good shots. With modern archery equipment killing white tails has never been easier and with the knowledge on the internet it’s vastly easier, one could become a very good hunter with some dedication and time. With that said, I know a lot of hunter that don’t shoot their bow year round, or only use it to extend their hunting season, if you’re doing this you’re failing yourself and the animal. We don’t need poison to kill them, shoot better. I can wrap my head around you missing bc maybe wrong pin in the moment or a branch you didn’t see but other wise the arrow should land where you want it, whatever is preventing you from doing so fix it. And yes I know it happens a lot, I have friends and know a lot of hunters and it happens my question has always been why? Bc it isn’t happening to me, will it ever? Definitely… if I don’t do what I’m supposed to to be proficient at my craft and if I can’t do that then it’s best to not at all. I’ve sat seasons out bc I felt I didn’t practice enough. If you half*** something then I wonder why the results are anything but. Sorry for the rant lol maybe I’m crazy wrong who knows.

 

[brydan]

Seems like the thread is trending towards kill ethics which is fine, but since ethics are personal not sure if we'll ever reach consensus. That's one of the reasons I treat this as a "what's in my food" issue. As I feel like there's more potential for overlap, not too many people want as many chemicals in their wild game as possible.

That's a valid concern. The half-life of anectine in the animal is like 45 min, it breaks down very quickly. Humans are far less sensitive to it, during surgeries it's dosed directly into the blood stream

 

[thedutchtouch]

That's a valid concern. The half-life of anectine in the animal is like 45 min, it breaks down very quickly. Humans are far less sensitive to it, during surgeries it's dosed directly into the blood stream

Is the half life dependent on the animal's metabolic rate though? Because if it does and the animal dies, we're eating it. Likely still mountains out of molehills to keep beating this drum, I know, but I'm not making diy meth lab level decisions here either lol, even if breaking bad was a great show.

 

[gcr0003]

If you take people at their word on why they do things, then I can see how you might think people hunt for the reasons they say.

I just prefer to see things through an evolutionary lens. It all starts to make more sense then.


I prefer to work with human nature, and guide it in whatever direction we want it to go. I’ve watched the futility of trying to ignore and deter it.

You want to make progress in any human endeavor? Throw slavery at it, or make it cool to be a part of it.

Why does making something cool get it done? Because we all want the other monkeys to like us.

So you think human nature + evolution shows us that hunting is solely for acceptance?

Just answer the question for me. Why do you hunt? I don't care how you come to your conclusion (don't need your world view) I just want to know why you specifically hunt. If it is solely to gain personal acceptance just say so. If it is multifaceted, just say so. I try to take most people at their word; however, I am not naive. Peoples actions towards the world around them often tells me more than their words.

 

[kyler1945]

So you think human nature + evolution shows us that hunting is solely for acceptance?

Just answer the question for me. Why do you hunt? I don't care how you come to your conclusion (don't need your world view) I just want to know why you specifically hunt. If it is solely to gain personal acceptance just say so. If it is multifaceted, just say so. I try to take most people at their word; however, I am not naive. Peoples actions towards the world around them often tells me more than their words.

I can tell myself I do it to be a better person (less suffering than factory farming for the animals I eat).

I can tell myself I do it because I enjoy the tradition and all.

I can tell myself I do it because I like to do it.

I can tell myself I do it for a lot of reasons.

There’s a large growing pile of evidence to suggest that we largely do things, and then tell ourselves why we do after as a justification for having done it.

That flies in the face of free will, bootstraps, personal responsibility, and all the nice things we tell ourselves about our actions.

I think the only answer I can give you that doesn’t make me feel like I’m lying is “I hunt because I want to.” And that one makes sense to me because I’ve met very few people who do things they don’t want to do.

I’m trying not to get too deep in this side of the discussion. Mostly because I don’t think it matters - using pods fits well into my puzzle and just about everyone else’s too. It just takes confronting some cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy. It’s hard to unpack that without folks’ feelings getting hurt though. So I just try to point out the holes in the logic. In good faith.