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Poachers and Penalties: Are Cases Really a Deterrent?

Dsabhunt said:
I have no issue with shooting as many deer as is legal for your area. What this guy did was not legal. That poacher stole those animals from license holding hunters. That could've harvested them legally. That I have an issue with. If you don't that's fine but yes it does make my blood boil.
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The guy in the article clearly has some level of mental health issue going on. Is a heavy punishment for game violations the appropriate response in this scenario? I would not expect that he has the financial resources to pay a giant fine and throwing him in jail doesnt help that situation. In fact it may cost him his job if he has one and puts him squarely on yours and my payroll. Maybe a better course of action would be something along the lines of mandatory counseling, put a lien on any and all property he does own and require 500-1000 hours of community service working for game and fish or forestry. If he doesnt do the work and counseling he still can lose everything and end up and jail but at least there is an opportunity for a better outcome for everyone. Dont mistake what I posted as me being soft on crime because I would be first in line to vote yes for Saturday noon hanging's on the courthouse lawn for lots of criminals. But this country has a significant mental health problem that needs to be addressed and the answer isnt to to just keep handing out fines and jail time in all cases.
 
Jammintree said:
We sure are an eclectic bunch.

“What have we gained from this thread?” : we may not have gained anything yet, but without discussion, disagreement, sharing of ideas, and respectful conflict our civilization would rapidly descend into isolation and toxic individualism - a path wIth no healthy outcomes.

One of my favorite elements of this forum is the way people with different ideas and beliefs have practical discussions often full of tension and conflict. But we keep a modicum of respect, tolerance and consideration for one another - presumably because we all have a deep love of hunting.
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And I’ll add that the hardest things to talk about are often the things that are most in need of being discussed.
 
kyler1945 said:
I feel sorry for him because of the luck involved with his switches and dials being set the way they are, and the environment he was exposed to his entire life. Which both have a whole lot more to do with his habitual offending, than his “free will” to continuously make bad choices that make his life and the life of anyone close to him worse.

I don’t condone his choices, nor think they shouldn’t be met with consequences.

I appreciate your opinion on why I do what I do. I was just listening to podcast with those deer lab guys. They’re freakin smart. Dr. Strickland pointed out an interesting thing we do.

A guy wrote in and said that he saw breeding activity two weeks early, and none at the normal rut time, so their rut moved up two weeks and he wanted to know why. They graciously pointed out the science on why the rut doesn’t move, and then explained why that fellow might remember what he did. Every single deer doesn’t follow the rule. There’s always a couple exceptions. WE DONT REMEMBER THE RULE, WE REMEMBER THE EXCEPTIONS.

This explains why we think that the moon, barometric pressure, camo color, scent control, and any other number of things contribute to our deer success. It worked that one time. Much more memorable than all the times it didn’t.

It’s probably much more memorable when I take a position opposite of you on a topic than when I agree with you. But all those times I agree with you (or the general consensus) are boring. It’s easy to see why you feel the way you do about me.

I’m disagreeable. That’s for sure. Contrarian for contrarian’s sake isn’t my jam.
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Never worried about moon phase and all that other stuff myself. I think disagreeable and contrarian could be considered synonyms.
You post a lot for someone who thinks this thread is a wast of time haha.
 
BTaylor said:
The guy in the article clearly has some level of mental health issue going on. Is a heavy punishment for game violations the appropriate response in this scenario? I would not expect that he has the financial resources to pay a giant fine and throwing him in jail doesnt help that situation. In fact it may cost him his job if he has one and puts him squarely on yours and my payroll. Maybe a better course of action would be something along the lines of mandatory counseling, put a lien on any and all property he does own and require 500-1000 hours of community service working for game and fish or forestry. If he doesnt do the work and counseling he still can lose everything and end up and jail but at least there is an opportunity for a better outcome for everyone. Dont mistake what I posted as me being soft on crime because I would be first in line to vote yes for Saturday noon hanging's on the courthouse lawn for lots of criminals. But this country has a significant mental health problem that needs to be addressed and the answer isnt to to just keep handing out fines and jail time in all cases.
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I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I sat on a grand jury for a year and my observation was that 99% of the cases that came before us were the result of mental health and drug abuse issues. While prison sentences were definitely reasonable in many of those cases, so was some action to address root causes - and that rarely happens.
 
kyler1945 said:
Naw man, you’re good. I don’t think you did anything wrong, if what you’re after is a discussion on how to prevent wildlife violations.

Why we would want that, and what the tradeoffs are for any system we might implement are important.

I just think using someone who clearly has had a rough go of it, and will clearly not be impacted by whatever punishment we want to advertise, is not going to do us any good.

You’re going to have a certain subset of the population who will repeatedly break social and cultural norms. It’s inevitable.

Let’s set a goal: rules that reduce the most amount of violations, with the least amount of infringement on the personal liberties of those who try to play nice.

How would we change the rules/consequences currently in place to meet that goal?
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I don’t disagree that there is a certain segment that can’t be controlled…and I would offer that those are the people that are traditionally put in jail for repeated crimes in other areas of society. That should be the people we reserve jail for, those that habitually refuse to conform to the law. But you don’t see that in game violation cases too often, even in some pretty egregious cases with multiple violations and wonton disregard for the law.

I also didn’t say start throwing everyone in jail for months or years for every infraction but rather stated that a few weeks of jail time should be a consideration for people “guilty of multiple violations”. We have the laws and the penalties on the books now, so I don’t think it’s so much about changing the laws, but rather applying the laws in a manner that will actually deter future violations. I think that is how we “reduce the amount of violations.”

WRT “….the least amount of infringement on the personal liberties…”
Game laws should be designed to manage, preserve and sustain the resource for the use of the public or to ensure the safety of the public as they pursue the resource. If they do that, that is the least intrusion on your personal liberties possible while ensuring the program goals can be reasonably met. So every law should be able to be explained in that context and if it can’t, then it shouldn’t be on the books.
 
John 35 said:
Good story. I’d want to put out the name of the taxidermist that stole the buck and ruin the fool’s business.
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Short of them admitting they did it, it’s one of those situations where you know they did but you can’t 100% prove it. Pretty crazy story though.
 
John 35 said:
You feel sorry for him? The article said he was easy to find because he was already in jail for some kind of domestic abuse.
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If you're gonna feel sorry for anybody, shouldn't it be for people who are living a life orders of magnitude less pleasant than you? Do you think being an alcoholic who abuses family, stays in criminal/civil court, and has his mistakes on display for anybody with a smartphone is a pleasant situation?

Maybe pity isn't the right word. Sadness, maybe? Frustration with the fact that we can put people on the moon and split and fuse atoms but we can't find a way to make it click with everybody that looking out for others and thinking big-picture actually is the best way to get everything you want out of life in the long run?
 
Nutterbuster said:
Maybe pity isn't the right word. Sadness, maybe? Frustration with the fact that we can put people on the moon and split and fuse atoms but we can't find a way to make it click with everybody that looking out for others and thinking big-picture actually is the best way to get everything you want out of life in the long run?
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Well said.
 
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Nutterbuster said:
If you're gonna feel sorry for anybody, shouldn't it be for people who are living a life orders of magnitude less pleasant than you? Do you think being an alcoholic who abuses family, stays in criminal/civil court, and has his mistakes on display for anybody with a smartphone is a pleasant situation?

Maybe pity isn't the right word. Sadness, maybe? Frustration with the fact that we can put people on the moon and split and fuse atoms but we can't find a way to make it click with everybody that looking out for others and thinking big-picture actually is the best way to get everything you want out of life in the long run?
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It is indeed sad. That being said your assuming a lot on his behalf. The article made no mention of him being an alcoholic. Your saying he’s a victim of the life he was born into. Maybe he is. Maybe he’s just a douche. Maybe both.
 
John 35 said:
It is indeed sad. That being said your assuming a lot on his behalf. The article made no mention of him being an alcoholic. Your saying he’s a victim of the life he was born into. Maybe he is. Maybe he’s just a douche. Maybe both.
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This is the guy.


Haven't met him, but the deep south is full of folks like him. I guarantee he's a douche. And a victim of circumstance. They're in no way exclusive.
 
Dsabhunt said:
There comes a point in one's life where the choices they make are theirs and theirs alone. You can't blame someone else for how your life is when you made the poor choices that got you there
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I can't speak for everyone, but the vast majority of my life is the way it is for reasons that have nothing to do with me. I had jack to do with my birth. I didn't pick my genes, or where I was born, or when I was born, and just those three variables have had a huge impact on whatever it is that I am.

When I pay close attention to my thoughts in quiet moments, the vast majority of them bubble up and go away with no input or control on "my" end.

I think we vastly overestimate the degrees of freedom/choice we and others have as individuals. And I've gotten happier and kinder as I've accepted that. It's an extremely effective antidote for pride and anger.
 
Nutterbuster said:
I can't speak for everyone, but the vast majority of my life is the way it is for reasons that have nothing to do with me. I had jack to do with my birth. I didn't pick my genes, or where I was born, or when I was born, and just those three variables have had a huge impact on whatever it is that I am.

When I pay close attention to my thoughts in quiet moments, the vast majority of them bubble up and go away with no input or control on "my" end.

I think we vastly overestimate the degrees of freedom/choice we and others have as individuals. And I've gotten happier and kinder as I've accepted that. It's an extremely effective antidote for pride and anger.
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To a degree you are the product of your environment. But there are lots of ppl that had rough upbringings and persevered. I also know ppl that had great families and still turned out to be turds. The choices they made are what makes the difference.
 
Dsabhunt said:
To a degree you are the product of your environment. But there are lots of ppl that had rough upbringings and persevered. I also know ppl that had great families and still turned out to be turds. The choices they made are what makes the difference.
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What makes them make their choices?
 
I knew a guy from Massachusetts that had relatives in Montana. He loved elk hunting but he didn't like paying out of state fees. He decided he would just say he lived in Montana with his relative, he even registered a car there. One day while in Mass. he got a phone call from a warden. It seems the warden was paying on the computer one day and found a guy with an unusual phone number, he investigated and found he had a different phone number than the other people that lived in the house. He called their number and asked for Ed and could tell that the person that answered the phone was giving him the run around so he called Ed's phone number. I can't remember his conversation but Ed was caught! I think he got an $1800 fine and couldn't hunt Montana for I think it was five years. Ed told me that when he was in his fifth year he called the warden and asked if he could hunt cow elk, the warden gave him permission to hunt deer but not elk until his five years were up. Crazy how he got caught though huh?
 
I think it’s possible to hold people accountable for their actions AND to have compassion and understanding - offering opportunities for growth and learning from the mistakes that are made. If we are to be a civil society, punishment alone is not an adequate response.
 
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