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Not meaning to open a can of worms - cross loading carabiners

CharlieTN

CharlieTN

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
580
I happened to stumble across this video this morning as I was having my first cup of coffee. It’s some interesting testing of the strength of cross loaded carabiners. I would certainly say that his testing would go well beyond what we would normally do in a climbing situation. I make no claims or decisions either way regarding this issue, just thought I would share the video. The truth is that all carabiner manufacturers tell your to avoid cross loading your carabiners.

 
I trust steel triple locking biners more than I trust the new spring pin shackles for canopy anchors. Just my opinion and probably just a personal quirk because I have innate issues with heights and I have to trust my gear 110%.. I won't climb on the shackles with a canopy anchor if I can't verify the pins are locked in. Even with binos I don't feel I can always visually inspect them to my satisfaction.

I think with trees the side-loading argument is silly sauce. Moving parts meant to close the system coming undone are a much bigger concern with canopy anchors imo than crossloading (why I don't prefer the Quickie). For the short lanyard configurations commonly used in saddle hunting. I see no problem with using biners whatsoever. To me that's making perfection the enemy of good, just people making up rules so they can follow them and parrot extraneous made up best practices through the keyboard. Inspect, inspect, inspect though.
 
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elk yinzer said:
I trust steel triple locking biners more than I trust the new spring pin shackles for canopy anchors. Just my opinion and probably just a personal quirk because I have innate issues with heights and I have to trust my gear 110%.. I won't climb on the shackles with a canopy anchor if I can't verify the pins are locked in. Even with binos I don't feel I can always visually inspect them to my satisfaction.

I think with trees the side-loading argument is silly sauce. Moving parts meant to close the system coming undone are a much bigger concern with canopy anchors imo than crossloading (why I don't prefer the Quickie). For the short lanyard configurations commonly used in saddle hunting. I see no problem with using biners whatsoever. To me that's making perfection the enemy of good, just people making up rules so they can follow them and parrot extraneous made up best practices through the keyboard. Inspect, inspect, inspect though.
Click to expand...

I agree that choking a tree with an aluminum biner is a world away from these cross loading tests on a small and very hard surface.

The only thing that gives me pause using an aluminum biner as my primary life support around the tree is I read about aluminum fatigue, which might have just been me not understanding and getting spooked. But I know my stainless 9 or 10 mm delta screw link doesn't have that property at low loadings and also is way stronger than any aluminum biner (tests I've seen showed the steel links were like twice as strong as their rating) and not hard to unscrew and rescrew (I don't understand not liking taking 5 seconds to unscrew something).
 
raisins said:
I agree that choking a tree with an aluminum biner is a world away from these cross loading tests on a small and very hard surface.

The only thing that gives me pause using an aluminum biner as my primary life support around the tree is I read about aluminum fatigue, which might have just been me not understanding and getting spooked. But I know my stainless 9 or 10 mm delta screw link doesn't have that property at low loadings and also is way stronger than any aluminum biner (tests I've seen showed the steel links were like twice as strong as their rating) and not hard to unscrew and rescrew (I don't understand not liking taking 5 seconds to unscrew something).
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I agree. I switch back and forth. The biner is like 2 second faster, which on a big hunting climb (one stick, sorry I'm mixing climbing applications) saves me what, 10-15 seconds?

What I like about the quick link at least with my setup is that it has a little more friction. When I got that route I don't need another gadget or technique to keep it choked against the tree.

I'm going to claim ignorance on aluminum fatigue but I keep up on climbing accidents via a couple sources and I can't recall one single one being attributed to gear failure of that nature. Not saying never but the fact that millions of people hang on biners around the world each day and you never hear of failures leads me to believe it's another academic theoretical danger.
 
I shared this because we are using this equipment outside of its design parameters, not in a dangerous way, but in a different way. There’s a huge difference in the stresses placed on a carabiner when girth hitched around a tree versus one that’s attached to an anchor and being pulled across a sharp rock edge. Because of that I’m always curious when I see testing that might have a bit more relevance to what we do. At the end of that video he tests a setup that is very much like us girth hitching around a tree. Interesting to watch.

In quite a few of his tests he’s getting results that up around the breaking strength of the rope anyway.
 
Does anyone know what manual he shows in the beginning with the choked tree diagram? Just curious, never seen one specifically addressed to tree work.

Edit nvm I just rewatched it and saw it's a zillion lanyard. My mind was on biners.
 
one problem with girth hitching a tether with a screwgate(may or may not be applicable to autolocks) is getting bark debris in the threads of the screwgate making it very difficult, needed to put the carabineer in a vise and use channel locks, to unscrew the gate. It's only happened once, but it made for a difficult climb back down the tree when trying to pass branches while 2TCing, feeding your hitches and foot loop through the carabineer is not a quick process
 
elk yinzer said:
I trust steel triple locking biners more than I trust the new spring pin shackles for canopy anchors. Just my opinion and probably just a personal quirk because I have innate issues with heights and I have to trust my gear 110%.. I won't climb on the shackles with a canopy anchor if I can't verify the pins are locked in. Even with binos I don't feel I can always visually inspect them to my satisfaction.

I think with trees the side-loading argument is silly sauce. Moving parts meant to close the system coming undone are a much bigger concern with canopy anchors imo than crossloading (why I don't prefer the Quickie). For the short lanyard configurations commonly used in saddle hunting. I see no problem with using biners whatsoever. To me that's making perfection the enemy of good, just people making up rules so they can follow them and parrot extraneous made up best practices through the keyboard. Inspect, inspect, inspect though.
Click to expand...
It seems sketchy at first glance, but the Quickie is the preferred canopy anchor for every training org I've ever trained with. Once the pin is pushed past the plunger, it's not backing out. Wouldn't call it new, it's been out for well over a decade too
 
TreeRecon said:
It seems sketchy at first glance, but the Quickie is the preferred canopy anchor for every training org I've ever trained with. Once the pin is pushed past the plunger, it's not backing out. Wouldn't call it new, it's been out for well over a decade too
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I know it's not fully logical and I don't have any dramatic anecdotes, I just don't 100% trust them. I want to dangle from what I trust, not what someone tells me to trust.
 
krub6b said:
one problem with girth hitching a tether with a screwgate(may or may not be applicable to autolocks) is getting bark debris in the threads of the screwgate making it very difficult, needed to put the carabineer in a vise and use channel locks, to unscrew the gate. It's only happened once, but it made for a difficult climb back down the tree when trying to pass branches while 2TCing, feeding your hitches and foot loop through the carabineer is not a quick process
Click to expand...
Another reason to practice your Batman moves. :p
 
elk yinzer said:
I know it's not fully logical and I don't have any dramatic anecdotes, I just don't 100% trust them. I want to dangle from what I trust, not what someone tells me to trust.
Click to expand...

Fortunately in this case there’s lots of different safe ways to skin the cat. In the pre safety days of Saddlehunter people “100% trusted” some pretty sketchy stuff :D
 
I am an advocate for experimentation but people that have limited experience in vertical work need to either get some quality instruction or listen to those who work in these fields. We have some individuals on here that work in the arborist field as well as other people that work at height and they share some good insights. You can scoff at safety but please don't use sketchy setups as your loved ones probably would prefer you walking vs pushing you in a wheelchair.
 
cedar paul said:
I am an advocate for experimentation but people that have limited experience in vertical work need to either get some quality instruction or listen to those who work in these fields. We have some individuals on here that work in the arborist field as well as other people that work at height and they share some good insights. You can scoff at safety but please don't use sketchy setups as your loved ones probably would prefer you walking vs pushing you in a wheelchair.
Click to expand...
I appreciate it, just giving my thoughts. The slick pin is ANSI approved, I don't dispute that. I just don't personally care for it. Not a fan of the RRP for that reason either, but it's just personal preference.
 
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