Amsteel questions

[Allegheny Tom]

EDIT: After typing the post below, I found G2's video on splicing and making bridges. He answer most of my questions. Thanks G2. But it lead to another question...Does the amount of bury that is need increase with heavier rope? Can I get away with the same amount of bury with 7/16 as G2 did with 1/4"?



I assume that the answer to this is already somewhere on this forum but I'll ask anyway...
I just bought some 7/16" Amsteel Blue for my tether and probably my bridge, too. My goal is to eliminate the knots that the Kestrel comes with.
The Amsteel came with an "eye" already spliced on one end. I'm not sure of my splice terms, but it's a locked-bury (?).... Its stuffed inside itself with a kind of locking weave by the "eye" before it buries into itself.
There is almost 18" of bury into itself. Seems like over-kill. I have a Ropeman1 and it gets a bit tight if I want to slide it over that buried section.

My question...
What is the minimum amount that Amsteel needs buried for saddle-type applications? I'd like it to be buried as little as safely possible. Can I re-do this bury shorter? Or is there a different type of splice technique that will allow a shorter bury?

Another question...
Is there any problem with just cinching the Amsteel "eye" through itself on the Kestrel's bridge loop? I'd cinch it on one end and use a carabiner on the other end. I'm pretty sure that question has been addressed on this forum. Can someone either answer my question or help me with a link to those other threads?
Thank you.

 

[sdonx]

I had the same idea, but the guys here pointed out that amsteel is not the safest choice for a ropeman. Test it yourself it crushes the amsteel. The problem "I think is" that Amsteel has no inner core.

 

[bigjoe]

You can do a whoopie sling for your bridge. G2 has YouTube video on it. Ontario discusses the whoopie sling in depth here also

 

[redsquirrel]

This is the official recommendations from samson:
http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice Instructions/12Strand_C2_Eye_Splice_WEB.pdf
http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice Instructions/Tools_Required_for_Splicing_WEB.pdf
It references fid lengths. The fid lengths for different diameters are in the second link.

 

[g2outdoors]

I use 6-8 inches of bury on my Amsteel bridges, but I believe the recommendation from Samson is about 10 or 11 inches. That's a healthy dose of CYA, but you should probably follow the manufactures recommendations.

Sent from my Galaxy S8.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

This is the official recommendations from samson:
http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice Instructions/12Strand_C2_Eye_Splice_WEB.pdf
http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice Instructions/Tools_Required_for_Splicing_WEB.pdf
It references fid lengths. The fid lengths for different diameters are in the second link.

Thanks red.
Keep in mind that my only saddle experience is with a Trophy Line which used stock webbing and adjusters. No ropes, no Blakes, no Prussics. It was stock and cumbersome. Other than Boy Scouts, my rope knowledge is limited. Until now, my policy was "If you don't know how to tie the correct knot, then tie lots of 'em"!

So,
It looks like the Samson chart says the fid length for a 7/16" rope is 9-1/2", and the length of the bury is 2 times the fid length, PLUS another fid length for the taper? The total length of the bury is 3 times the fid length?? Am I understanding that correctly? If I am, that would make the entire length of the bury on a 7/16" rope to be 28"?? That would make the TOTAL bury to form an eye on both ends of a 7/16" rope to be a total 56"? I must be missing something.

BTW, The reason I chose the 7/16" Amsteel is because I hoped to use it mostly for knotless tether (and possibly also the lineman's rope) WITH a Ropeman1. I got the best price for the Amsteel by buying a 24 foot piece, so I thought I'd just take some of the extra and convert my bridge to the 7/16" Amsteel too. I realize that 7/16" is over-kill for a bridge but I was in the Ropeman 1 frame of mind.

So, as sdonx said...are Ropeman1 not suitable for Amsteel? If so, I may as well return the 24 feet of 7/16" Amsteel, and get a piece of lighter Amsteel for the bridge and stick with the stock 7/16" Predator that came with the Kestrel.
Sorry for the rookie questions and confusion.I went my Kestrel to be set up as user friendly as possible in order to make it totally pleasant to use. I gotta say, while I think the Kestrel is light years better than my Trophy Line, I'm not crazy about the bulky knots and Blakes. I'm trying to streamline things a bit.

 

[Bigterp]

Why don’t you play around with the stock bridge that came with the kestrel to figure out length, then go w/ a fixed amsteel bridge? Mine is 1/4” amsteel 24” total plus one carabiner puts me at 27” total. The 7/16 would be fine too, still a lot less bulky. I didn’t find myself adjusting the bridge much, could get enough adjustment from the ropeman on the tether.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Why don’t you play around with the stock bridge that came with the kestrel to figure out length, then go w/ a fixed amsteel bridge? Mine is 1/4” amsteel 24” total plus one carabiner puts me at 27” total. The 7/16 would be fine too, still a lot less bulky. I didn’t find myself adjusting the bridge much, could get enough adjustment from the ropeman on the tether.

After watching the g2 videos, a fixed bridge is what I plan to do, and the stock bridge length seems about right for me. I'd like to do a locked brummel on one end and have a carabiner on the other end for taking the saddle on and off easier (OR do a stitched bury on that end). I just want to make sure that I'm constructing the buries correctly.
And, if I can't use a Ropeman1 with an Amsteel tether, then I have little use for 7/16" Amsteel. I'll return it or sell it and go with 1/4" Amsteel for the fixed bridge.

 

[g2outdoors]

After watching the g2 videos, a fixed bridge is what I plan to do, and the stock bridge length seems about right for me. I'd like to do a locked brummel on one end and have a carabiner on the other end for taking the saddle on and off easier (OR do a stitched bury on that end). I just want to make sure that I'm constructing the buries correctly.
And, if I can't use a Ropeman1 with an Amsteel tether, then I have little use for 7/16" Amsteel. I'll return it or sell it and go with 1/4" Amsteel for the fixed bridge.

If you start with 48" of 1/4" Amsteel, keep the loops short, and the bury around 8",you'll end up with a bridge around 24".

Sent from my Galaxy S8.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

If you start with 48" of 1/4" Amsteel, keep the loops short, and the bury around 8",you'll end up with a bridge around 24".

Sent from my Galaxy S8.

1/4" is probably the way I'll go.
Any of you guys using a Ropeman1 on Amsteel?

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[IkemanTX]

So,
It looks like the Samson chart says the fid length for a 7/16" rope is 9-1/2", and the length of the bury is 2 times the fid length, PLUS another fid length for the taper? The total length of the bury is 3 times the fid length?? Am I understanding that correctly? If I am, that would make the entire length of the bury on a 7/16" rope to be 28"?? That would make the TOTAL bury to form an eye on both ends of a 7/16" rope to be a total 56"? I must be missing something.

No, the bury is t 3 fids, the whole splice is 3 fids. Samson’s instructions assume a fid length on the eye circumference. Your 3’rd mark could be smaller than a fid, it would just tighten up the diameter of your eye. The actual bury is 2 fids. One fid length is full diameter, and the other fid length is for taper.

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[sdonx]

I dont like the knots that came with my stock Kestrel. I keep telling myself to use for a year then change. Lol but thats not me...So i hear normal humans cannot splice predator.
But would it be ok to do a double passthru with a lock stitch? I think that
Could be the answer.


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[Allegheny Tom]

No, the bury is t 3 fids, the whole splice is 3 fids. Samson’s instructions assume a fid length on the eye circumference. Your 3’rd mark could be smaller than a fid, it would just tighten up the diameter of your eye. The actual bury is 2 fids. One fid length is full diameter, and the other fid length is for taper.

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The Samson chart in the link that red provided shows 2 fids between marks 1 and 2. Your chart shows only 1 fid.which chart is correct?

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[IkemanTX]

The Samson chart in the link that red provided shoes 2 fids between marks 1 and 2. Your chart shows only 1 fid.which chart is correct?

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I pulled this off of Samson’s website as well.... hmmm... this is from the 12-strand, class 1 eye splice.
http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Splice_Instructions.aspx#PDF


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[redsquirrel]

I pulled this off of Samson’s website as well.... hmmm... this is from the 12-strand, class 1 eye splice.
http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Splice_Instructions.aspx#PDF


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Amsteel is class 2

 

[redsquirrel]

1/4" is probably the way I'll go.
Any of you guys using a Ropeman1 on Amsteel?

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You don't want to use a ropeman with amsteel. Neither the ropeman or amsteel were designed for that. I think everyone that is using an amsteel bridge is using 1/4" amsteel for the bridge.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

You don't want to use a ropeman with amsteel. Neither the ropeman or amsteel were designed for that. I think everyone that is using an amsteel bridge is using 1/4" amsteel for the bridge.

Gotcha. But just to be clear, I wasn't going to use the Ropeman1 on the bridge, just on the tether. So if I wanted to use Amsteel for the tether (in order to eliminate the knots)are a Blakes or Prussic my only choices for a carabiner connector?
Or if I want to use the Ropeman1 on the tether, then it has to be Predator and it's knots?

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[redsquirrel]

Gotcha. But just to be clear, I wasn't going to use the Ropeman1 on the bridge, just on the tether. So if I wanted to use Amsteel for the tether (in order to eliminate the knots)are a Blakes or Prussic my only choices for a carabiner connector?
Or if I want to use the Ropeman1 on the tether, then it has to be Predator and it's knots?

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Sorry, those were 2 separate thoughts. To date, no one I know is using amsteel for a tether. We have not found a safe way that works well.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Sorry, those were 2 separate thoughts. To date, no one I know is using amsteel for a tether. We have not found a safe way that works well.

Thank you so much for taking the time to straighten me out. I really appreciate the effort you guys make in order to help out us saddle newbies.
I was a bit half hearted when I had my Trophy Line but I'm fully determined to develop a sound and comfortable Kestrel set-up. Couldn't do it without the help of you good people.

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[IkemanTX]

Amsteel is class 2

That would be the answer then...
go with the 3 fid lengths for safety then. I’m glad you pointed that out!


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