Bolts are great but....

[DMTJAGER]

everything screw in steps do, bolts do better.

but I agree with the rest of your premise.

lighter, cheaper, less bulky, less noisy, easier to pack, easier to install.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just asking how are bolts better than screw in steps?
My main concern would be while climbing if my big ole size 15xxw boot slips away from the tree while on the bolt I could hook the bolt and pop it out of the tree and onto the ground loosing that step from being used to get down. Is that a real possibility or am I imagining a highly unlikely occurrence?

They look to be Treehopper climbing bolts are I correct? and if yes do you also use the Treehopper hand drill system or a cordless drill and TH/bit or possibly both.

 

[DMTJAGER]

Climbing a tree is a very dangerous thing to do. It becomes even more dangerous when you introduce equipment.

this is really the point I’ve been trying to get across to people. The difference in what you think is “safe” or “certified” versus “unsafe” or “unproven” is very very small. The difference in staying on the ground, versus climbing a tree, is the one that is material and matters.

don’t climb a tree unless you stand to gain a lot. Even then, it’s not a great idea.


Personally for myself I have to utterly disagree. I earn my living climbing all over heavy industrial machinery 3-10 or more feet off the ground. All of my shortest falls have the potential to be fatal or without doubt would result in very serious injury. And no it is simply not practical or even possible to wear a FBH most of the time. I am extremely careful and although the risk is there I accept it and depend on my capabilities to keep me safe.
The same applies to my climbing of trees to deer hunt. I take all the steps i can to minimize my possibility of injury and if an accident were to occur I take steps to minimize the degree of my injury as best as current technology allows.

I feel I am at a greater risk and likelihood of serious injury driving to and from my hunting areas than climbing into or out of my tree stands once there.

I could be wrong but I feel if 100% of truth be known 8-9 out of 10 falls from tree stands or tree stand related injuries are the result of insufficient or non existent safety practices and or improperly installed or maintain tree stands and a combination of both.
I will concede it may have occurred, but I personally never heard of a tree stand related injury where the injured did absolutely everything correct was wearing a FAS/FBH and still got seriously injured or killed.

 

[kyler1945]

everything screw in steps do, bolts do better.

but I agree with the rest of your premise.

lighter, cheaper, less bulky, less noisy, easier to pack, easier to install.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just asking how are bolts better than screw in steps?
My main concern would be while climbing if my big ole size 15xxw boot slips away from the tree while on the bolt I could hook the bolt and pop it out of the tree and onto the ground loosing that step from being used to get down. Is that a real possibility or am I imagining a highly unlikely occurrence?

They look to be Treehopper climbing bolts are I correct? and if yes do you also use the Treehopper hand drill system or a cordless drill and TH/bit or possibly both.

I use a tree hopper mini with folding handle to drill holes. It’s the size of two sharpie markers and fits in my pocket.

I use rods, but I’ll use regular hex head bolts or cap screws for the sake of argument. I’ve personally never pulled a rod or bolt out of a hole with my muddy boot, and I’ve never slipped off of a rod or a bolt. I drill at a slight angle, and take care to have my foot against the tree completely before stepping up. I am positive that it is definitely possible to climb in an erratic manner and put outward force on your foot and pull both your foot and bolt away from the tree. I suspect that climbing carefully, consistently, and looking above you before moving and planning your moves would avoid this.

I put the exact location of my boot on the bolt every time - my arch, specifically right in front of the step of my heel. It’s a tactile indicator, and it allows me to pivot my leg, without side loading the bolt. Measure the width of your size 15 boots across the sole directly in front of heel step - I’m curious how much of a difference in width there is from a size 13.

I listed all the reasons bolts are better than screw in steps. lighter, cheaper, less bulky, less noisy, easier to pack, easier to install.

you may have listed the only potential tradeoff - if you have size 15 boots or larger, a longer step may be valuable to you. I’d counter with the fact that if you’re wearing a size 15, you’re probably not a normal human, and drilling a 1/2” hole wouldn’t bother you, and it would be about the same as screwing in a 1/2” Cranford step. And the difference in weight and bulk would be a much smaller percentage of your body mass. So yes, for the grown men among us like yourself, maybe not as big of a difference. For us mere mortals, bolts are way better.

 

[kyler1945]

I feel I am at a greater risk and likelihood of serious injury driving to and from my hunting areas than climbing into or out of my tree stands once there.

straw man argument. I have also said the same thing. It’s not a feeling though, it’s a fact.

I didn’t say climbing a tree with certified equipment or in the proper way to hunt is less dangerous than driving your car - we agree. I said it’s more dangerous than hunting from the ground. As in, once you’ve chosen a spot to hunt, leaving the ground to do it is incredibly risky, relative to sitting on the ground.

Personally for myself I have to utterly disagree. I earn my living climbing all over heavy industrial machinery 3-10 or more feet off the ground. All of my shortest falls have the potential to be fatal or without doubt would result in very serious injury. And no it is simply not practical or even possible to wear a FBH most of the time. I am extremely careful and although the risk is there I accept it and depend on my capabilities to keep me safe.
The same applies to my climbing of trees to deer hunt. I take all the steps i can to minimize my possibility of injury and if an accident were to occur I take steps to minimize the degree of my injury as best as current technology allows.

you say you “utterly disagree”.

Then you say that your shortest climbs at work have potential to be fatal.

then you say the risk is there and you depend on your own brain and skills to keep you safe.

then you say you take the steps to minimize the possibility of injury.

All of these things completely contradict you utterly disagreeing with me.

Relative to sitting at the base of a tree, climbing one to hunt is significantly more dangerous. You say you disagree, utterly, then say that even the shortest of climbs can be fatal - I’d say that’s an introduction of more risk than standing next to the equipment you’re working on.

You then say you depend on your skills to keep you safe - implying that less skilled people or you on a bad day are more at risk of injury - something that wouldn’t matter if you’re sitting on the ground.

you then say you take steps to minimize the possibility of injury - again something not required if you’re sitting on the ground.


I’m not saying there’s not a better way to climb trees. I’m not trying to get people to disregard the difference between climbing trees with proper equipment in the proper manner, versus doing it in unsafe manner. I’m trying to get people to have a better understanding of exactly how the math works. If you’re really serious about climbing safely, it’s a useful exercise to understand exactly how much risk is baked in the second you leave the ground. Sure, you can make decisions and take actions to reduce that risk. But it will always be way more dangerous than sitting on the ground. Is the actual risk, not the perceived one, worth it to you?

This comes from a person who hunts on the ground and out of trees. It’s a thought exercise, not a statement of right/wrong or good/bad. Feelings have nothing to do with it.

 

[mattsteg]

I use a tree hopper mini with folding handle to drill holes. It’s the size of two sharpie markers and fits in my pocket.

I use rods, but I’ll use regular hex head bolts or cap screws for the sake of argument. I’ve personally never pulled a rod or bolt out of a hole with my muddy boot, and I’ve never slipped off of a rod or a bolt. I drill at a slight angle, and take care to have my foot against the tree completely before stepping up. I am positive that it is definitely possible to climb in an erratic manner and put outward force on your foot and pull both your foot and bolt away from the tree. I suspect that climbing carefully, consistently, and looking above you before moving and planning your moves would avoid this.

I put the exact location of my boot on the bolt every time - my arch, specifically right in front of the step of my heel. It’s a tactile indicator, and it allows me to pivot my leg, without side loading the bolt. Measure the width of your size 15 boots across the sole directly in front of heel step - I’m curious how much of a difference in width there is from a size 13.

I listed all the reasons bolts are better than screw in steps. lighter, cheaper, less bulky, less noisy, easier to pack, easier to install.

you may have listed the only potential tradeoff - if you have size 15 boots or larger, a longer step may be valuable to you. I’d counter with the fact that if you’re wearing a size 15, you’re probably not a normal human, and drilling a 1/2” hole wouldn’t bother you, and it would be about the same as screwing in a 1/2” Cranford step. And the difference in weight and bulk would be a much smaller percentage of your body mass. So yes, for the grown men among us like yourself, maybe not as big of a difference. For us mere mortals, bolts are way better.

Bolts hold better than rods. I don't see bolts slipping out (or slipping off of them). Rods I've slipped off of once, when climbing an aspen (soft tree) and not angling the rod up. The rod then slipped out. (Again, this would not happen with bolts which hold in much more securely due to the threading, or if I'd drilled a better hole, or if I'd not been an idiot who kept putting weight on it is the hole opened up.

It was a complete non-issue. Because each step is independent, your other foot it right above a previous step. Because you're putting bolts directly into the tree and semi-straddling it:

1. A lineman's belt has a really easy time gripping and holding you (even if it's not a device guaranteed to do so). There's not much of a gap to allow for slack, plus you can orient everything so that it'd catch on bolts as well.
2. If you deployed your tether - again you're close to the tree so not as much slack and swinging
3. If you somehow manage to lose a step (only realistic with rods in my opinion), I actually found it trivial to just stretch down the tree.

I've climbed with some pretty damn wide cold-weather boots and they're just fine.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Based on the truism of the simpler the design the more inherently reliable the design is
leads me to be absolutely confident the safest most reliable climbing system out there has to be high quality screw in tree steps and in my experience none beat Cranford 1/2" thick steps.
A screw in tree steps has zero moving parts can't be easily cut or suffer damage or fatigue or wear out under normal use
Ben using the same ones for over a decade.
Just stinks they aren't public land legal in the states I hunt in

I was a Cranford loyalist for over 30 years. I still believe they are the best brand of screw in steps. But I did have one fail on me several years ago. The pin that retains the lag broke. Luckily, it was my bottom step.
One thing I don’t like about Cranford is how the lag gets stuck in the step when folded. I often have to use the lag of one step to pry open the other step...not exactly a fun thing to have to do while climbing.
I still have all my Cranfords but they are now collecting dust.
Bolts for me.