Broadhead vs insert weight?

[slonstdy]

I'm about to build another set of arrows and have a few questions regarding weight.
My current arrow weighs 585 grains using a 125gr broadhead and a 150gr ss insert. My reason for staying with the 125gr broadhead is convenience. I could swap bh's for fp's without having to either re-sight/tune my bow or purchase matching weight fp's for target practice. Now, I am thinking of using a heavier bh, but I am unsure if there is a valid reason to do so, other than to tinker and satisfy an itch.

So here are some questions I have:

1. Is there a benefit to using a heavier bh vs using a 125gr bh plus an insert to reach the same TAW?
2. Is arrow flight affected if I keep the same TAW but use a heavier bh?
3. For the guys shooting heavier bh's, what do you use for target practice? Fp's that are the same weight? Lighter weight arrows and re-sight/tune bow?
4. What insert system do you prefer with the heavier Bh's, ss insert or aluminum insert with ss outsert?

Might as well tell me what broadhead you use. I want to stay with a single bevel and may try Cutthroats. I've been using Grizzlystick samurai overkill and Kudupoints up to this point but the KP's are a PITA to sharpen once an edge gets dinged up, and the Grizzlystiks I feel are overpriced for a two piece design. The Cutthroats are a solid one piece design at the same price.

 

[weekender21]

So here are some questions I have:

1. Is there a benefit to using a heavier bh vs using a 125gr bh plus an insert to reach the same TAW?
2. Is arrow flight affected if I keep the same TAW but use a heavier bh?
3. For the guys shooting heavier bh's, what do you use for target practice? Fp's that are the same weight? Lighter weight arrows and re-sight/tune bow?
4. What insert system do you prefer with the heavier Bh's, ss insert or aluminum insert with ss outsert?

Might as well tell me what broadhead you use. I want to stay with a single bevel and may try Cutthroats. I've been using Grizzlystick samurai overkill and Kudupoints up to this point but the KP's are a PITA to sharpen once an edge gets dinged up, and the Grizzlystiks I feel are overpriced for a two piece design. The Cutthroats are a solid one piece design at the same price.

1) heavier broadheads could mean thicker blades and a tougher overall Broadhead but that’s not always the case.
2) maybe yes but more importantly, more weight up front will make your spine weaker.
3) yes, I’m shooting iron will 150 grain broadheads and field points.
4) I shoot Easton Axis arrows with Iron Will steel inserts and their titanium 10 grain footers.

Lots of great broadheads out there, I really like iron will but you certainly have many quality options. There was a time I was hunting A LOT. Now I rarely kill more than five or so big game animals a year. Paying for quality broadheads is money well spent in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MattMan81]

Following as I am dropping a little weight on my arrows. Just going to a lighter insert. Still staying with 200 bh. Gotta set my paper up to see what's going on.

But to check out crimson talon for heads. Still the single bevel, half the cost of GS. They need a little sharpening out of the box. If you trash one your not out a lot.

 

[BowhunterXC]

It's all about balance of the arrow. The further out on the end of the arrow shaft that you put the weight, the more it's going to effect the spine of the arrow and its' flight.

What you're currently doing with a 150 gr. SS 1 piece heavy insert is the best setup, that will allow you to have a wider selection of broadhead choices in the 125 gr. weight range. I'm doing something similar with a 100 gr. brass insert and using 150 gr. Grizzly and 175 gr. Steel Force single bevels.....both of which fly the same and the the same point of impact, out to 20 yards.
Plus.... Finding heavier broadheads can be difficult at best. Meaning, the selection is less and the cost is more. Making the broadhead selection better, is easiest by doing what you have already done....using the heavy insert to get the weight forward that you want, combined with the broadhead weight selection that makes availability good.

As far as field tip weight availability....Amazon! I have ordered 150, 200 and 250 gr. SS field tips off of Amazon, to do my tinkering of arrow tuning with and they are good quality.

 

[kyler1945]

Do you want advice or comfort?

 

[Blacksmith]

I've Always Used 170 gr. Rothhaar Snuffers for the Devastating Damage they Cause and Ease of Sharpening. I Also Use Aluminum Inserts but I can See the Benefit of Heavy Inserts to Protect the Shaft Even Though I Have Never Had an Issue W/Bending a Shaft @ the Insert. When We Used to Shoot Easton's Aluminum w/Swaged Ends, They Would Bend @ the Head if it Struck Something Solid. I Don't Think it Matters if Your Wt. is @ the Broadhead or Behind it in the Insert as Long as they are Tuned A Properly. Flight May Be Changed w/Wt @ the Broadhead Versus Insert but you Just Have to Tune Them for That.

 

[BTaylor]

I find it easiest to pick the head you want to shoot, then build the arrow around it.

 

[michigandrake]

I shoot 250 grains up front. I have arrows that are setup for 100 grain heads with 150 grains worth of insert. My main arrows are 200 grain heads with 50 grain inserts. On the practice range with field points I can't tell the difference. Using broadheads I still can't tell the difference. Love the way my broadheads fly with the high FOC setup I am shooting but I don't see any difference in how the tip weight is distributed.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

I'll tell you what I'm currently doing since I'm running the same total weight as you at 585 grains. I went to this set up since I have this arrow tuned to both of my compounds. One compound is 60 pounds, the other is 44 pounds. This arrow flies out of both like a dart. I am shooting a 125 grain Grizzly single bevel (Right hand) on a 125 grain steel broadhead adapter. That makes the broadhead about 250 to 260 grains depending on glue and sharpening, etc.

I am shooting these on an Easton 6.5, 340 spine arrow cut to 28.25" I am using the stock aluminum insert. That's it. All the weight is up front. The broadhead is a tank, and the shaft and insert are relatively light and have the least amount of mass to work on the broadhead if the shaft flexes upon impact. I've done the whole 100 grain stainless insert and brass insert and lighter head, and from my anecdotal observations it seems to me that the more mass and toughness you can put right at the front the better and have the actual arrow be as light as possible.

For perspective, I shot this arrow set up though a buck last fall that was quartering slightly too and had the front half of the buck's body lower than his hind end. He was standing facing down a bank on a creek. I had my 44 pound Mathews Heli M bow and this arrow set up. The buck was at 17 yards and I was 22 feet up a tree to my feet. I visualized where I wanted the arrow to exit and took the shot. The entrance was through the right shoulder scapula and the exit was about 3 inches behind the crease on his left side. I heard a sharp crack when the arrow broke his scapula, he bounded and across a shallow creek, and then trotted about 20 yards and stood there looking back. He stood for about 15 seconds and tipped over. He went all of 30 yards. The arrow is still out there in that creek somewhere. I looked all over that afternoon and then went back a few weeks later and looked again. I don't know where it went when it passed through him.

As to the question of moving the weight forward into the broadhead, you will likely gain some broadhead structural integrity, and slightly weaken the overall spine of the set up. How much you will weaken it is just a guess, if you are not too close to the edge of being out of spine, it will probably be fine. You will just have to test it and see.

 

[kyler1945]

You hear a lot “there’s no downside to increasing arrow weight”.

This is certainly true, with regard to terminal performance, starting at the moment the tip of that arrow touches the deer, and within acceptable variation between POA and POI.


Removing those qualifiers leads to where you are now. If you want to spend a bunch of time and money to say you did, that sounds fun!


As a general matter, poor broadhead lifespan is certainly correlated with lower broadhead weight. That’s because the cheap ones with the thin blades also happen to be light. If someone wanted to go after the ranch fairy crowd they could make a 200gr head with weak components and thin blades. But that would capture a tiny fraction of the market. They make 100 and 125 heads because that’s what 99% of archers shoot.

Which is a strong incentive for someone to make robust heads that weigh 100 and 125. Which they do.

Deer are soft animals, relatively speaking. If you want to tinker, tinker! But if you think you’re actually improving your odds in any statistically significant way by adding 25 or 50gr to your broadhead, you’re not correct.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

If I'm reading the OP's question correctly, he is just asking about changing the distribution of mass in the arrow and not changing the total mass and what effect, if any, this will have on structural integrity and arrow flight.

 

[krub6b]

1. You will gain a tiny percentage of FOC by putting the weight in the broadhead vs the insert, not really a worthwhile amount. The bigger benefit is the potential added structural integrity of the heavier head, and in the case of cutthroats specifically(125 grain vs 200 grain) you get a thicker blade and a longer broadhead that will reduce the attack angle of the cutting edge, which will aid in penetration and should help increase the service life of the broadhead as well.
2.Arrow flight could change as a result of the longer/heavier broadhead applying more steering to the shaft, only one way to know that for sure. If you aren't borderline on arrow spine and have a good fletching setup it will probably not be noticeable though IMO.
3.Practice how you hunt. I shoot one broadhead and then follow up with the correctly weighted field points to get reps in and save fletching.
4. 100 grain stainless insert with a 250 grain cutthroat. If I were using a small or micro diameter shaft than I would have to look and insert/outsert systems alot closer

 

[Blacksmith]

I shoot 250 grains up front. I have arrows that are setup for 100 grain heads with 150 grains worth of insert. My main arrows are 200 grain heads with 50 grain inserts. On the practice range with field points I can't tell the difference. Using broadheads I still can't tell the difference. Love the way my broadheads fly with the high FOC setup I am shooting but I don't see any difference in how the tip weight is distributed.

You Are Correct. I Doubt Any of us Shoot Well Enough to tell the Difference of Moving the FOC Weight 1" Forward or Back.

 

[mschultz373]

But to check out crimson talon for heads. Still the single bevel, half the cost of GS. They need a little sharpening out of the box. If you trash one your not out a lot.

I ordered and have 3 of the CROCS 200gr. I like them but haven't successfully brought them to razor sharp edge. IDK what degree bevel they use but it ain't 32*.... both the CT Crocs and single bevels got high remarks from Lusk.

 

[slonstdy]

I'll tell you what I'm currently doing since I'm running the same total weight as you at 585 grains. I went to this set up since I have this arrow tuned to both of my compounds. One compound is 60 pounds, the other is 44 pounds. This arrow flies out of both like a dart. I am shooting a 125 grain Grizzly single bevel (Right hand) on a 125 grain steel broadhead adapter. That makes the broadhead about 250 to 260 grains depending on glue and sharpening, etc.

I am shooting these on an Easton 6.5, 340 spine arrow cut to 28.25" I am using the stock aluminum insert. That's it. All the weight is up front. The broadhead is a tank, and the shaft and insert are relatively light and have the least amount of mass to work on the broadhead if the shaft flexes upon impact. I've done the whole 100 grain stainless insert and brass insert and lighter head, and from my anecdotal observations it seems to me that the more mass and toughness you can put right at the front the better and have the actual arrow be as light as possible.

For perspective, I shot this arrow set up though a buck last fall that was quartering slightly too and had the front half of the buck's body lower than his hind end. He was standing facing down a bank on a creek. I had my 44 pound Mathews Heli M bow and this arrow set up. The buck was at 17 yards and I was 22 feet up a tree to my feet. I visualized where I wanted the arrow to exit and took the shot. The entrance was through the right shoulder scapula and the exit was about 3 inches behind the crease on his left side. I heard a sharp crack when the arrow broke his scapula, he bounded and across a shallow creek, and then trotted about 20 yards and stood there looking back. He stood for about 15 seconds and tipped over. He went all of 30 yards. The arrow is still out there in that creek somewhere. I looked all over that afternoon and then went back a few weeks later and looked again. I don't know where it went when it passed through him.

As to the question of moving the weight forward into the broadhead, you will likely gain some broadhead structural integrity, and slightly weaken the overall spine of the set up. How much you will weaken it is just a guess, if you are not too close to the edge of being out of spine, it will probably be fine. You will just have to test it and see.

Bingo!
Yeah, we've got very similar setups I'm shooting 300 spine GT Hunter Pro cut to 28.625" with a 29"DL at 62 pounds. Arrow flight is perfect and the setup has never failed to produce a kill when I do my part.
You make a good case for putting all the weight in the broadhead. The money I save not having to buy inserts could be put towards buying quality broadheads.

 

[Weldabeast]

I ordered and have 3 of the CROCS 200gr. I like them but haven't successfully brought them to razor sharp edge. IDK what degree bevel they use but it ain't 32*.... both the CT Crocs and single bevels got high remarks from Lusk.

32 degrees for a single bevel?

 

[mschultz373]

32 degrees for a single bevel?

Yes, if I understand right that is a common angle in broadheads. Lusk specifically mentioned the crocs being 32* in his review but my guide is way off. Haven’t been able to reach the company re: the angle

 

[Dcomer55]

From what I've seen stepping up to 125 from 100 grain broadheads generally yields better materials (a lot of 100 grain heads use aluminum components and at 125 you start to get stainless steel which generally will be more durable)

The same can also be true of components though. If you slap a high end 200 grain broadhead on the cheap 10 grain aluminum insert that comes with your arrows you like will end up with bad concentricity/run out - which is the overall straightness/alignment of all three parts of the system (the arrow, insert, broadhead) which will lead to poor arrow flight. This is where I've seen some people buy high end heads, then use low end components not realizing the issue, then decree that that high end heads don't fly any better.

I would try and get inserts that are either stainless steel, brass or titanium. I would also steer clear of half outs on 5mm & 4mm arrows.

Same deal on broadheads - get something made out of better materials.

 

[Weldabeast]

Yes, if I understand right that is a common angle in broadheads. Lusk specifically mentioned the crocs being 32* in his review but my guide is way off. Haven’t been able to reach the company re: the angle

32bis going to give u a more durable edge....25 happy medium between sharpness and durability...20 degrees gonna be a razor but the edge not as durable.

 

[Weldabeast]

Also with the steep edge bevel u probably gonna start contacting the ferrel while sharpening