figure 8 knot vs eye splice

[Scott F]

Does anyone using a lead rope vs a webbing/strap lead use an eye splice?
I have always used a figure 8 knot backed with an overhand knot with my lead, but I know that many arborist sites splice their ropes to create a permanent loop. I am thinking that this will (or should) be plenty strong enough in this application and have the added benefit of being slightly easier to pack up and transport because I could theoretically use a smaller pouch because I would not have to contend with a 'bulky' 11mm rope with figure 8 knots on both ends.
*[caveat] - I know that this not a necessity; it is similar in my mind to 'light' vs 'ultra light backpacking where some folks go to extremes. :shock:

In truth, I may be just looking for an excuse to try my hand at splicing kernmantle rope...

Thoughts?

 

[essdub]

I use the figure 8 with an overhand knot to keep it from pulling out. I've seen the eyes but I know nothing about splicing. But if you do it, post about it so we can have an idea what's involved and if you're successful. Maybe you could walk us through how to do It. It would pack up a little smaller but the thing I like about the idea of the eye is that it would be smaller and probably pull over limbs and through crotches in trees more smoothly. My rope hangs up on me all the time and it's a pain . I don't want that to happen during season, it's bad enough while practicing

 

[Scott F]

I hope that I didn't give the impression that I [already] know how to do this!

I was looking at some sites that included some arborists folks on YouTube. There were a bunch of folks who had one end of a length of rope that was spliced thereby creating the same loop that we use with a figure 8 knot but without the bulk of the knot itself.
I know that it isn't a big deal, but I wondered if I could make the lead rope easier to pack into an already existing bag that I have - not having this knot would help.
...on second thought, it takes all of about 6 seconds to tie the dadgum knot, I think that it would just be easier to untie it and pack my rope. I feel almost silly for asking this question to begin with now...

Then again, it doesn't scratch my itch to splice a length of kernmantle rope. Grrrrrrrr

 

[Scott F]

On the topic of ropes.
I know a bunch of people that pull their carabineer and friction knot through the loop in their lead rope twice in order to reduce the likelihood of their lead slipping down the tree trunk in the event that some slack was present.

The reason why this slippage occurs is because the loop is large enough to pull the carabineer and friction knot through it. If the loop was reduced significantly (just slightly larger than the rope's diameter) it should reduce the slippage.
I just folded over a small length of 1" webbing and sewed it around the loop in my lead rope. In theory, when I climb to my hunting height and hook up the lead rope I can slide this webbing along the loop and essentially reduce the diameter of the loop. Hopefully this will stop any slippage. If it works I'll post a picture.

 

[essdub]

Hmmm, a loop sleeve. Good thinking. I would like to know how to splice the rope properly too, if just to satisfy my curiosity. If you follow up with that, please post what you learn.

About the rope slipping, I like to tie a decent size loop with my figure eight (plus the stopper knot) so that it pulls out easier with the paracord (tied to the loop itself) once I'm back on the ground. I might be different, but I like it that my cinch is easy to move up, down , or around the tree so I can get set just right. I've never had a problem with the rope slipping once I've put weight on it , but I usually try to find a branch or something to throw over. If I'm climbing a straight tree without branches, then I'll bring a few steps or a second tree strap to hold me while I lift the longer rope with a lay up stick ( I only use a five ft stick so I can carry it easier). But all that only applies the first time I climb the tree because I will set up my screw in steps for bow, pack, platform, and rope stop (which gets the paracord draped over it so I can pull my rope from the ground the next time). That's just how I've been setting up my trees. If I'm gonna be hunting a new area and going in blind, without setting up trees, then I'll be using Muddy sticks.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

I've done some eye splicing before. Its very nice, and will keep you busy for quite a while. you can try it using plastic splicing tools, but if you're going to do more than 1 of these , http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XBGTUG/ref=cm_sw_su_dp is well worth the money. This is hunting, so those expenses aren't tracked And, Kermantle, that isn't for the weak of heart. Best attempted in the off season !

 

[brydan]

I was looking at some sites that included some arborists folks on YouTube. There were a bunch of folks who had one end of a length of rope that was spliced thereby creating the same loop that we use with a figure 8 knot but without the bulk of the knot itself.
I know that it isn't a big deal, but I wondered if I could make the lead rope easier to pack into an already existing bag that I have - not having this knot would help.
...on second thought, it takes all of about 6 seconds to tie the dadgum knot, I think that it would just be easier to untie it and pack my rope. I feel almost silly for asking this question to begin with now...

Not silly at all. I cringe at the sight of clunky old figure 8's . Most arborist supply houses offer custom splicing services when you buy rope. It's usually $25-30 depending on the rope construction and thus difficulty. Sounds like a lot but you only need 1. Flip lines and stuff usually come pre-spliced too.

 

[boone0]

My kmiii was $15 for a sewn splice, bandit is $25 for a buried splice. I have a delta rink on the sewn splice, I like that setup. Definitely better than a fig 8 for climbing rope.

I've spliced am steel and dynaglide, but nothing for life support. Just makes me nervous!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Docteric]

The primary reason for using a spliced eye rather than a knot is that any knot will weaken the rope. The figure eight weakens the rope by about 20%. A good splice is actually stronger than the rope itself. That and splicing is fun. And it impresses your climbing buddies.

The major rope manufacturers (New England, Sampson) all have splicing instructions on their web sites. Just make sure you're using the right technique for your specific rope.

Unfortunately most kernmantle ropes are not splicable. The arborist retailers can make a sewn splice, but that really can't (or shouldn't) be done at home.

As already mentioned, splicing is a good thing to learn in the off season. Certainly don't trust your life and limb on your early splicing attempts.

 

[brydan]

Yes a splice is stronger than a knot but if using a properly rated rope, > 5000 lbf, the reduction in strength due to knots is immaterial. All the reductions like knots, wear and tear, bend radii, etc are automatically factored into the rating. That's because if the difference between a rope failing or not is due to a knot or splice, there isn't nearly enough safety factor to be using it for life support.

 

[kenn1320]

Yes a splice is stronger than a knot but if using a properly rated rope, > 5000 lbf, the reduction in strength due to knots is immaterial. All the reductions like knots, wear and tear, bend radii, etc are automatically factored into the rating. That's because if the difference between a rope failing or not is due to a knot or splice, there isn't nearly enough safety factor to be using it for life support.

Im using bluewater assualt line, 7/16". It is rated 7695lbs, but its working load is only 513lbs. I contacted bluewater cause that seemed strange to me . What I found out is they use a safety factor rating of 15/1. The tensile rating is just the rope, but I suspect the working load is accounting for knots. I specifically asked him about the ropeman 1 and if that posed an issue with the ropes strength. He said no, the ropeman 1 will break before the rope does.

 

[brydan]

The working load is just like it sounds, essentially the day to day use of the rope shouldn't exceed that load. In the field, the rope still fails at the same load regardless of how the reductions are accounted for on paper. This sounds grim but safety rules are written in blood and decades of experience has shown that including knots, bends, wear, etc, 5 kips is a sound min strength for life support equipment. Of course it's ok to use equipment stronger than that, my point was just that if sufficiently strong rope is being used, then people needn't concern themselves with accounting for reductions other than it being good to know for the sake of general knowledge.