Saddle Hunting Climbing Safety

[John RB]

Friends,
Most know me as a rope climber but that started after 25 years of using other methods. Along the way, I learned a lot about safety and have been slowly assembling some content which is applicable to climbers of all methods. I truly feel like this info will prevent some injuries.

I filmed this video yesterday.

I made this one a year ago:

And this is applicable to anyone on a tether.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[samu]

Watched it, wrote a lengthy comment on YT and then deleted it before sending because nobody reads comments on youtube. Good stuff..

I was surprised you didn't know or intentionally explain fall factor in relation to falls on rope systems. As short as I can put it would be "It's not how far you fall, it's how fast you stop". Rope elasticity, fall factor and mass of the falling object are three factors that determine the resulting peak force. Elasticity of human body of course has an effect, but usually the goal is to rely as little on that as possible.

Another point was about suspension trauma. The real danger is not while hanging, it's AFTER hanging when the deoxygenated blood returns to circulation it can result in cardiac arrest. The risk is more related to full body harnesses where you need other equipment to get the load off the leg loops. In a saddle, unless you slip on the leg straps, your blood supply to legs should work just fine. On rock climbing harness, you can shift the load between legs and the waist band to delay the effect. Should be remembered that climbers do hanging belays occasionally.. discomfort kinda guides you to keep the blood moving.

Usually there's a tree to grab on to however, so the real issue is being unconcious or so badly injured you can't help yourself. There no. 1 is to have someone who knows to expect you in short enough time frame. Secondarily it's good if they know not to lower the person if they've been hanging longer than 10 minutes and instead wait until first responders arrive. There's no risk of losing a leg before about 12 hours from circulation being cut off as everyone should know from tourniquet instructions.

Personally I climb on dynamic ropes. If I struggle to manage slack it decreases the severity of short fall significantly. There's no real downside to using one so I find promoting the use of static ropes bit unethical, especially the hyperstatic ones that absorb almost no energy at all. When people talk about stretch and efficiency of climbing it should be noted that it's in context of work access or big wall climbing where one might climb 150ft of rope at the time several times per day. To suggest that a hunter can't manage the slight give in the rope for 25ft climb is absolutely riddiculous. Also it bounces less if you move smoothly, when I SRT on dynamic rope, it takes one extra step to take away the stretch, then it's just up the rope as usual. I have also climbed up some 100ft on dynamic rope few times and there the stretch starts to become noticeable. But I mean for hunting it's 25ft once, there's no need to get fancy about it.

 

[John RB]

Watched it, wrote a lengthy comment on YT and then deleted it before sending because nobody reads comments on youtube. Good stuff..

I was surprised you didn't know or intentionally explain fall factor in relation to falls on rope systems. As short as I can put it would be "It's not how far you fall, it's how fast you stop". Rope elasticity, fall factor and mass of the falling object are three factors that determine the resulting peak force. Elasticity of human body of course has an effect, but usually the goal is to rely as little on that as possible.

Another point was about suspension trauma. The real danger is not while hanging, it's AFTER hanging when the deoxygenated blood returns to circulation it can result in cardiac arrest. The risk is more related to full body harnesses where you need other equipment to get the load off the leg loops. In a saddle, unless you slip on the leg straps, your blood supply to legs should work just fine. On rock climbing harness, you can shift the load between legs and the waist band to delay the effect. Should be remembered that climbers do hanging belays occasionally.. discomfort kinda guides you to keep the blood moving.

Usually there's a tree to grab on to however, so the real issue is being unconcious or so badly injured you can't help yourself. There no. 1 is to have someone who knows to expect you in short enough time frame. Secondarily it's good if they know not to lower the person if they've been hanging longer than 10 minutes and instead wait until first responders arrive. There's no risk of losing a leg before about 12 hours from circulation being cut off as everyone should know from tourniquet instructions.

Personally I climb on dynamic ropes. If I struggle to manage slack it decreases the severity of short fall significantly. There's no real downside to using one so I find promoting the use of static ropes bit unethical, especially the hyperstatic ones that absorb almost no energy at all. When people talk about stretch and efficiency of climbing it should be noted that it's in context of work access or big wall climbing where one might climb 150ft of rope at the time several times per day. To suggest that a hunter can't manage the slight give in the rope for 25ft climb is absolutely riddiculous. Also it bounces less if you move smoothly, when I SRT on dynamic rope, it takes one extra step to take away the stretch, then it's just up the rope as usual. I have also climbed up some 100ft on dynamic rope few times and there the stretch starts to become noticeable. But I mean for hunting it's 25ft once, there's no need to get fancy about it.

Thx. These are good points and some were touched upon but i was trying to keep it simple. I have been criticized for talking too fast and using big words. Meanwhile, I am addressing an audience who is not tied in. Explaining fall factor or recommending dynamic rope or the details of suspension trauma are each topics in themselves and are going to lose the audience. I am trying to get them to think. Currently they think a lineman's is a tie in. I demonstrated Dynamic rope use in a meetup and nobody liked it... they aren't going to change ropes... let's get em using the ones they have.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[Bwhana]

Rope elasticity, fall factor and mass of the falling object are three factors that determine the resulting peak force.

This topic continually resurfaces here and has for many years. Lots of opinions on static vs dynamic ropes for our use. What is always missing is true numbers or facts. I’m not referencing you rope climbers here with a longer rope to allow more stretch, just a standard length tether.

In reference to falling on a tether it has yet to be shown in real facts that a dynamic rope reduces enough shock load to matter on the relatively short ropes we are using. If someone can, I would love to see the data that shows otherwise. Logic says the ropes are too short to provide enough stretch to absorb enough fall energy to make a real difference.

I have also seen it stated here often that a fall of just 2 ft on a static tether will cause great bodily harm, so I am either very lucky to have survived those or it is not true. Again, would love to see real numbers and data and realize that my personal sample size is not enough to draw conclusions for anyone. I know I can’t be the only one on here that has experienced 2 ft falls and still exist, so I would like to see folks chime in that have done so as well.

I’m not advocating lots of slack in your tether while climbing or skimping on safe methods, just looking for less opinions and more real data on this topic.

 

[samu]

Thx. These are good points and some were touched upon but i was trying to keep it simple. I have been criticized for talking too fast and using big words. Meanwhile, I am addressing an audience who is not tied in. Explaining fall factor or recommending dynamic rope or the details of suspension trauma are each topics in themselves and are going to lose the audience. I am trying to get them to think. Currently they think a lineman's is a tie in. I demonstrated Dynamic rope use in a meetup and nobody liked it... they aren't going to change ropes... let's get em using the ones they have.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

I can see your videos getting such feedback. Lot of information in many of them. And I think the video in question is good to have it as it is, it's astounding what some people do and don't realize the risk involved. I started teaching compound archery for bowhunting almost two years ago. I had similar issue, flooding people with information. Helps to do teaching in person and get feedback directly.

There's a small project in the plans to make a course about climbing trees for hunting. There is a demand locally at least. But it's not easy task to push better practices into field that has already widely adopted questionable ones.

What was it in the meetup that people didn't like about dynamic rope? I can see how most don't want to change something they have but outright rejection seems unwarranted.

 

[samu]

This topic continually resurfaces here and has for many years. Lots of opinions on static vs dynamic ropes for our use. What is always missing is true numbers or facts. I’m not referencing you rope climbers here with a longer rope to allow more stretch, just a standard length tether.

In reference to falling on a tether it has yet to be shown in real facts that a dynamic rope reduces enough shock load to matter on the relatively short ropes we are using. If someone can, I would love to see the data that shows otherwise. Logic says the ropes are too short to provide enough stretch to absorb enough fall energy to make a real difference.

I have also seen it stated here often that a fall of just 2 ft on a static tether will cause great bodily harm, so I am either very lucky to have survived those or it is not true. Again, would love to see real numbers and data and realize that my personal sample size is not enough to draw conclusions for anyone. I know I can’t be the only one on here that has experienced 2 ft falls and still exist, so I would like to see folks chime in that have done so as well.

I’m not advocating lots of slack in your tether while climbing or skimping on safe methods, just looking for less opinions and more real data on this topic.

Well goddamn I got you numbers. Petzl has done drop tests with their 6mm RAD line. You could compare that to 8mm Oplux and similar ropes.

RAD LINE: small-diameter hyperstatic cord - Petzl USA

www.petzl.com

I dare say almost 2x is not insignificant and 0.8m fall isn't far off from what can happen onesticking.

 

[John RB]

I can see your videos getting such feedback. Lot of information in many of them. And I think the video in question is good to have it as it is, it's astounding what some people do and don't realize the risk involved. I started teaching compound archery for bowhunting almost two years ago. I had similar issue, flooding people with information. Helps to do teaching in person and get feedback directly.

There's a small project in the plans to make a course about climbing trees for hunting. There is a demand locally at least. But it's not easy task to push better practices into field that has already widely adopted questionable ones.

What was it in the meetup that people didn't like about dynamic rope? I can see how most don't want to change something they have but outright rejection seems unwarranted.

To be clear, I have no objections to the use of dynamic rope, particularly where a fall, even a short one could be experienced. They are designed to stretch and therefore deliver significant reduction in Impact Force to the climber after a fall. I simply prefer to eliminate the possibility of a fall, meaning more than one of more than a few inches. Remember, when a rock climber Falls there's nothing underneath them generally speaking. But when a stick climber falls, there's typically a sharp stick underneath them. The stick itself could be the cause of the injury, after we just slip off of our stick with a couple feet of Slack. And given that a saddlehunter should not need to buy multiple ropes, I prefer to supply them with an option for managing slack on their Lifeline no matter how they are climbing. For example, when I made this video on ladder stand use case, I used my rope from my SRT system. I can use that same rope to assist me in Stick climbing. The common denominator in all of these methods is that I do so on zero or absolute minimal Slack. I have tested my ability to sustain a one foot fall on static rope and although it's a good jolt, it's not going to injure me. As for your question on the reaction to Dynamic rope, it happened at a saddle Hunter meet up event and that opinion was shared by all who tried it, including some who have significant experience. As you are aware, the amount of stretch we experience is proportional to the distance between us and our tie in. And this was an SRT application. And so for a stick climbing application, the stretch would be less prominent

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[TreeRecon]

Watched it, wrote a lengthy comment on YT and then deleted it before sending because nobody reads comments on youtube. Good stuff..

I was surprised you didn't know or intentionally explain fall factor in relation to falls on rope systems. As short as I can put it would be "It's not how far you fall, it's how fast you stop". Rope elasticity, fall factor and mass of the falling object are three factors that determine the resulting peak force. Elasticity of human body of course has an effect, but usually the goal is to rely as little on that as possible.

Another point was about suspension trauma. The real danger is not while hanging, it's AFTER hanging when the deoxygenated blood returns to circulation it can result in cardiac arrest. The risk is more related to full body harnesses where you need other equipment to get the load off the leg loops. In a saddle, unless you slip on the leg straps, your blood supply to legs should work just fine. On rock climbing harness, you can shift the load between legs and the waist band to delay the effect. Should be remembered that climbers do hanging belays occasionally.. discomfort kinda guides you to keep the blood moving.

Usually there's a tree to grab on to however, so the real issue is being unconcious or so badly injured you can't help yourself. There no. 1 is to have someone who knows to expect you in short enough time frame. Secondarily it's good if they know not to lower the person if they've been hanging longer than 10 minutes and instead wait until first responders arrive. There's no risk of losing a leg before about 12 hours from circulation being cut off as everyone should know from tourniquet instructions.

Personally I climb on dynamic ropes. If I struggle to manage slack it decreases the severity of short fall significantly. There's no real downside to using one so I find promoting the use of static ropes bit unethical, especially the hyperstatic ones that absorb almost no energy at all. When people talk about stretch and efficiency of climbing it should be noted that it's in context of work access or big wall climbing where one might climb 150ft of rope at the time several times per day. To suggest that a hunter can't manage the slight give in the rope for 25ft climb is absolutely riddiculous. Also it bounces less if you move smoothly, when I SRT on dynamic rope, it takes one extra step to take away the stretch, then it's just up the rope as usual. I have also climbed up some 100ft on dynamic rope few times and there the stretch starts to become noticeable. But I mean for hunting it's 25ft once, there's no need to get fancy about it.

Dynamic may work for RADS at 15-20' (I still wouldn't do it. RADS is slow as it is lol). But I can tell you there is a noticeable difference in doing true SRS on a static rope vs trying it on a different static rope with more elongation.

So if you tried rope walking on a dynamic rope, I'm not sure you'd ever reach the top.

Most work at height uses static rope for a reason. Efficiency. They incorporate dynamic in certain areas (cowtails in rope access).

Using static rope means managing slack and keeping your fall factor at or around zero. (I know I'm preaching to the choir)

Where I DO think dynamic could be used is onesticking. I've never seen anyone onestick who wasn't at a FF of at least a 1.5 at some point.

 

[samu]

To be clear, I have no objections to the use of dynamic rope, particularly where a fall, even a short one could be experienced. They are designed to stretch and therefore deliver significant reduction in Impact Force to the climber after a fall. I simply prefer to eliminate the possibility of a fall, meaning more than one of more than a few inches. Remember, when a rock climber Falls there's nothing underneath them generally speaking. But when a stick climber falls, there's typically a sharp stick underneath them. The stick itself could be the cause of the injury, after we just slip off of our stick with a couple feet of Slack. And given that a saddlehunter should not need to buy multiple ropes, I prefer to supply them with an option for managing slack on their Lifeline no matter how they are climbing. For example, when I made this video on ladder stand use case, I used my rope from my SRT system. I can use that same rope to assist me in Stick climbing. The common denominator in all of these methods is that I do so on zero or absolute minimal Slack. I have tested my ability to sustain a one foot fall on static rope and although it's a good jolt, it's not going to injure me. As for your question on the reaction to Dynamic rope, it happened at a saddle Hunter meet up event and that opinion was shared by all who tried it, including some who have significant experience. As you are aware, the amount of stretch we experience is proportional to the distance between us and our tie in. And this was an SRT application. And so for a stick climbing application, the stretch would be less prominent

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

Makes perfect sense. Climbing sticks are probably the sketichiest part of hunting from a tree, be it one or multiple. And lot of people multi stick with nothing but linemans belt.

Dynamic may work for RADS at 15-20' (I still wouldn't do it. RADS is slow as it is lol). But I can tell you there is a noticeable difference in doing true SRS on a static rope vs trying it on a different static rope with more elongation.

So if you tried rope walking on a dynamic rope, I'm not sure you'd ever reach the top.

Most work at height uses static rope for a reason. Efficiency. They incorporate dynamic in certain areas (cowtails in rope access).

Using static rope means managing slack and keeping your fall factor at or around zero. (I know I'm preaching to the choir)

Where I DO think dynamic could be used is onesticking. I've never seen anyone onestick who wasn't at a FF of at least a 1.5 at some point.

Yes I know and I never said there isn't a difference, I just don't think 20-25' climb is where the difference in efficiency is big enough to worry about. I guess I need to time some climbs and get back with results.

I agree it's mostly one sticking where the risk of a fall is present. If the chosen method truly doesn't involve slack, yes obviously go static.