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Best type of ropes for tree tether and linemans
- Thread starter Njjb122
- Start date
There are several climbing methods where you are forced to introduce slack in your tether. If you use one of these climbing methods then you could potentially drop up to 4’. On a static rope, that has the potential to be extremely violent and dangerous because the forces in such a short fall are surprisingly high and can exceed the limits of your gear. It’s definitely something to consider when choosing a rope type.
As long as you’re aware of the potentially severe consequences with a static rope and mitigate your slack, static ropes are all you need. If you have to have slack as part of your climbing/descending method then consider dynamic ropes.
You could also use a lineman’s belt in conjunction with your tether and make sure you weight your lineman’s before you slack your tether. But that seems unnecessarily complicated.
As long as you’re aware of the potentially severe consequences with a static rope and mitigate your slack, static ropes are all you need. If you have to have slack as part of your climbing/descending method then consider dynamic ropes.
You could also use a lineman’s belt in conjunction with your tether and make sure you weight your lineman’s before you slack your tether. But that seems unnecessarily complicated.
Just saw this. If you are falling 4 feet on your tether you are going to get seriously injured. It won’t make much a difference if it’s on static or dynamic rope. A dynamic tether cannot be long enough to allow enough elongation to cushion that fall.
Gordonc615
Member
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2020
- Messages
- 59
I use static for both but my linemans rope has a heavy fiber shield on the outside so as to not fray really at all when sliding along the tree. I know that wasn't the question but its something I didn't consider in the beginning.
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Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
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- Jan 17, 2019
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- 6,279
Be careful if you use a ropeman or similar. Someone here pulled that sheath into the mechanical device and then took a ride to the end of their stopper knot (which thankfully was there).
131north
Well-Known Member
I have a pair of ropes that another member here on the forum spliced eyes in for me, made from Deep Woods by All Gear. It works great with a Ropeman 1.
www.knotandrope.com
Deep Woods
This is a 7/16 rope with the unique feature of a second core which helps it stay round under load. This is the perfect line for any hunter looking for a line that blends into the woods. For climbing or lanyards, this rope fits the bill. Basically this is just like Blue Craze or Rocket Line. Made...
www.knotandrope.com
I’m sorry, but this is completely false, just do the math for yourself. A dynamic rope has an elongation in the 30% range and static’s have an elongation of at most 3%. 30% of 4’ is 14.4”. 3% of 4’ is 1.4”. Very significant difference.
Sure, if you fall and smack your head, arm or leg against the tree, you could break or seriously hurt yourself, but that’s injury from hitting the tree not getting snatched by your rope and jello-ing your insides and/or breaking your back. Climbers fall these short distances all the time on dynamic rope without injury.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
- Messages
- 6,279
The tether/harness does work on you to remove the work that gravity just did.
Work = mass X acceleration X distance
Double the distance of the work, and cut the acceleration (deceleration in this case) in half that the rope does on you. As you state, you don't have to spring like a trampoline for it to seriously help you. Just thinking what adding a foot of deceleration space via an airbag does for us.
That "significant difference" is not remotely enough, because a tether is too short to provide enough rope stretch to decelerate you gently. When a rock climber falls on a dynamic rope, that rope is much longer in length than a tether so you get much more potential stretch distance which allows for actual gentle deceleration. a rock climber is also being belayed. there is rope slip Before the belayer catches the climber. Additionally, the belayer is not as rigid a fixed object as a tree. Both of these things also give you more gentle deceleration. if a rock climber is on a rope extended 20ft from the belayer, and falls, that rope is potentially decelerating that climber for 6 and change feet (closer to 7 feet) just on its own.That's not even considering the additional cushion from rope slip which could easily be a foot or two. If your 8 feet of tether is wrapped around a tree the max length that it can use to decelerate you is two and change feet. in reality much less because of the friction from the rope wrapped around the tree. My rock climber has between 2.5 and 3x the distance to decelerate. And that's giving the tether way more stretch than it will have in reality, and ignoring additional stretch and slip, that will be decelerating the climber.
14+ inches of stretch is not "remotely enough" to decelerate you safely from a 4' fall???! I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree then because I can't make it any more clear than that.
A climber doesn't magically appear 20' above their belay. The climber starts at the belay and climbs up. So the climber will at times have a short distance between themselves and their belay, which would be very similar to a short tether.
Rope slip will occur similarly around the tree, although that can't be counted on because of how unpredictable it is and I'm not including that aspect in my argument.
This is true, but this isn't the full story. Fixed point belaying is a common climbing technique used by many climbers when the conditions require it. A belayer flying 20 feet up in the air when being snatched by a falling lead climber can be very dangerous to the belayer and lead climber in certain conditions. So climbers will use a fixed anchor point as their belay, similar to our tether system.
My example of a 4' fall on 4' of rope is based on the 4' of rope being from the girth hitch to your saddle connection and does not account for the rope wrapped around the tree. I think you will get some give in that connection, but it would be so variable that it can't be counted on and shouldn't be included in the calculation. That's why I did not include it in my example.
Again your making assumptions and blanket statements that don't always match reality. A lead climber starts at the belay and climbs up. If they were to fall in the beginning of their climb, they would be falling on a very short rope, just like our tether.
I know I'm probably coming off a bit harsh and I apologize for that. My problem is that you made a blanket statement that there's no difference in falling on a short static rope versus a short dynamic rope, which I showed to be completely false by doing the math for everyone to see. Someone can see your statement and say screw it, I'll just get a static rope since theres no difference and that could get them seriously hurt or killed. That's why I did the actual math based on the average stats of the different rope types so everyone can see that there is a significant difference between the two and make an informed decision.
In addition, here's something else to consider. The Army did some drop testing on soldiers and determined that the max allowable force experienced by a paratropper when their parachute deployed must be 12 kN or less. Dynamic ropes are designed around this parameter. If you look at the specs of various dynamic ropes, you won't see a MBS listed, what you will see is a fall force in kN listed. It varies between 6 - 9 kN depending on the rope.
The UIAA is the governing body that regulates the climbing industry and sets the standards. The standard UIAA test to determine the fall force listed in the specs of dynamic ropes is to suspend an 80 kg mass (176.4 lbs) 2.3 meters (7.55 feet) above the last anchor point with a total rope length of 2.6 meters (8.5 feet) which will produce a 4.6 m (15.1 foot) fall. The rope is rigidly anchored with no give, similar to our tether situation. This is a 15.1 foot fall on 8.5 feet of rope which creates a fall factory of 1.77. This is an extremely heavy and violent fall. The maximum possible fall factor for any climbing scenario is 2. The fall factor is calculated by dividing the fall distance by the length of rope. My example of 4' of rope and a 4' fall is a fall factor of 1. This test fall is much more severe than any saddle hunter would ever encounter. And it occurs on a very short rope. And it is well within the safe fall force range.
If you use a climbing method that forces you to introduce slack in your tether, you need to be aware of the potential forces involved in a short fall and the differences, which are significant, between a dynamic rope versus a static rope on the forces experienced in that fall.
Here's a link to a PDF which explains in more detail what I was describing above and has some pictures to give you a better idea of the configuration of the UIAA test fall and fall factor:
The UIAA is the governing body that regulates the climbing industry and sets the standards. The standard UIAA test to determine the fall force listed in the specs of dynamic ropes is to suspend an 80 kg mass (176.4 lbs) 2.3 meters (7.55 feet) above the last anchor point with a total rope length of 2.6 meters (8.5 feet) which will produce a 4.6 m (15.1 foot) fall. The rope is rigidly anchored with no give, similar to our tether situation. This is a 15.1 foot fall on 8.5 feet of rope which creates a fall factory of 1.77. This is an extremely heavy and violent fall. The maximum possible fall factor for any climbing scenario is 2. The fall factor is calculated by dividing the fall distance by the length of rope. My example of 4' of rope and a 4' fall is a fall factor of 1. This test fall is much more severe than any saddle hunter would ever encounter. And it occurs on a very short rope. And it is well within the safe fall force range.
If you use a climbing method that forces you to introduce slack in your tether, you need to be aware of the potential forces involved in a short fall and the differences, which are significant, between a dynamic rope versus a static rope on the forces experienced in that fall.
Here's a link to a PDF which explains in more detail what I was describing above and has some pictures to give you a better idea of the configuration of the UIAA test fall and fall factor:
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The 12kn limit you mention is for "survive without mortality". OSHA limits Maximum arrest force at 6kn with a full body harness and 4kn for a belt (which a saddle is closer to) This is important as the fall factor is only one aspect, and the force the climber/hunter experiences is also very important. I'm not good at physics, but the force of a 4 foot drop on 4 feet of dynamic rope with 180 lbs of weight is more than 6kn. i think its close to 9kn. You're going to get hurt badly. Granted, the force on static is around double that.
But i haven't been addressing the actual issue properly and I should have explained more fully in my ealrier posts. That's my fault. I'll try now. You aren't supposed to fall on your tether. It's not a fall arrest device. It's meant to be weighted at all times. A dynamic tether isn't a consistent tether. And I'm betting that a prusik that's on a rope that will elongate will slip much more easily, and unexpectedly. The point I am trying to make is that you aren't making a better tether by making it out of dynamic. Specifically, because that's not what a tether is meant to do. I got too bogged down in trying to compare it to rock climbing which, in reality, is not even relevant to the discussion. a tether is meant to be consistent, and solid. dynamic rope is neither. short dynamic rope also isn't a good fall arrest device, as it does not have adequate elongation to allow for tolerable deceleration on it's own. This is why tear away webbing (like sreamers) and webbing with an elastic core is used in fall arrest systems. (I may be wrong, but i also think dynamic rope has a lower breaking strength, but i absolutely could be wrong,on that)
But i haven't been addressing the actual issue properly and I should have explained more fully in my ealrier posts. That's my fault. I'll try now. You aren't supposed to fall on your tether. It's not a fall arrest device. It's meant to be weighted at all times. A dynamic tether isn't a consistent tether. And I'm betting that a prusik that's on a rope that will elongate will slip much more easily, and unexpectedly. The point I am trying to make is that you aren't making a better tether by making it out of dynamic. Specifically, because that's not what a tether is meant to do. I got too bogged down in trying to compare it to rock climbing which, in reality, is not even relevant to the discussion. a tether is meant to be consistent, and solid. dynamic rope is neither. short dynamic rope also isn't a good fall arrest device, as it does not have adequate elongation to allow for tolerable deceleration on it's own. This is why tear away webbing (like sreamers) and webbing with an elastic core is used in fall arrest systems. (I may be wrong, but i also think dynamic rope has a lower breaking strength, but i absolutely could be wrong,on that)
All of your posts are filled with speculation. Your not backing any of your assertions up with math/science or pointing to professionals in the field that support your assertions and your not addressing any of the facts I have laid out. You just throw out made up numbers along with your opinion as if they are fact. Your going to get someone hurt doing that. This is why I keep going back and forth with you even though I'm starting to feel like a broken record.
But, here we go again:
Fact: A typical dynamic rope has a stretch of around 30%.
Fact: A typical static rope has a stretch of around 3%.
Fact: A 4' long dynamic rope will stretch 14.4"
Fact: A 4' long static rope will stretch 1.44"
Fact: Falling 4' with 14.4" of cushion is going to feel significantly different than falling 4' with 1.44" of cushion.
Fact: The UIAA standard dynamic rope drop test drops 176.4 lbs 15.1' on 8.5' of rope for a fall factor of 1.77 and produces forces in the 6 - 9 kN range. As long as the fall factor is the same, the peak forces experienced by the climber will be the same regardless of rope length/fall distance, ie. 4' fall on 4' of rope is going to have the same peak forces as a 100' fall on 100' of rope because they have the same fall factor of 1. This is due to the additional stretch you will get out of a 100' long piece of rope. So, for comparative purposes of an actual labratory conducted fall test, if we reduce this setup down to a 4' long rope and maintain the 1.77 fall factor, then the fall distance becomes 7.1' and the max force is still in the 6 - 9 kN range.
Fact: Having a 4' fall on 4' of rope with a fall factor of 1 will produce forces significantly less than the 6 - 9 kN forces experienced from a 7.1' fall on 4' of rope.
Everyone has to determine how much risk they are going to take on when they saddle hunt. You can't make an intelligent decision if you don't have the proper facts. This is why I keep rebutting you because there are significant differences between static and dynamic ropes and significant differences in the consequences of a short fall on the two different types of rope as shown above with facts.
But, here we go again:
Fact: A typical dynamic rope has a stretch of around 30%.
Fact: A typical static rope has a stretch of around 3%.
Fact: A 4' long dynamic rope will stretch 14.4"
Fact: A 4' long static rope will stretch 1.44"
Fact: Falling 4' with 14.4" of cushion is going to feel significantly different than falling 4' with 1.44" of cushion.
Fact: The UIAA standard dynamic rope drop test drops 176.4 lbs 15.1' on 8.5' of rope for a fall factor of 1.77 and produces forces in the 6 - 9 kN range. As long as the fall factor is the same, the peak forces experienced by the climber will be the same regardless of rope length/fall distance, ie. 4' fall on 4' of rope is going to have the same peak forces as a 100' fall on 100' of rope because they have the same fall factor of 1. This is due to the additional stretch you will get out of a 100' long piece of rope. So, for comparative purposes of an actual labratory conducted fall test, if we reduce this setup down to a 4' long rope and maintain the 1.77 fall factor, then the fall distance becomes 7.1' and the max force is still in the 6 - 9 kN range.
Fact: Having a 4' fall on 4' of rope with a fall factor of 1 will produce forces significantly less than the 6 - 9 kN forces experienced from a 7.1' fall on 4' of rope.
Everyone has to determine how much risk they are going to take on when they saddle hunt. You can't make an intelligent decision if you don't have the proper facts. This is why I keep rebutting you because there are significant differences between static and dynamic ropes and significant differences in the consequences of a short fall on the two different types of rope as shown above with facts.
I give up. Use a dynamic rope for a tether. And make sure to take a 4 foot fall on it to practice. I won’t bother asking you to post your findings because you will most likely be paralyzed. A tether is not a fall arrest system. Have a great day.
Superdan540
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2021
- Messages
- 1
Ok so after reading all that and understanding the risks with each type of rope I have a question on what is best for me.
I plan to use the two tether climbing method. See in this video.
I'll never have slack on my line. I'm just curious how much the rope will elongate as I try to climb the tree and if it's worth using static rope instead of dynamic rope. I also plan to rappel down at the end of my hunt. I have the opportunity to purchase 8mm maxim dynamic rope at a very reasonable price so I'm trying to decide which way to go.
Thanks
I plan to use the two tether climbing method. See in this video.
I'll never have slack on my line. I'm just curious how much the rope will elongate as I try to climb the tree and if it's worth using static rope instead of dynamic rope. I also plan to rappel down at the end of my hunt. I have the opportunity to purchase 8mm maxim dynamic rope at a very reasonable price so I'm trying to decide which way to go.
Thanks
I am not a rock climber, just a hunter who has two young saddle hunters. MAN this is a lot.
Got my fingers caught under my lineman's on a fall once and MAN it hurt. So I was moving to dynamic on my lineman's and my tether, from reading all the above I think im good on my tether. but now i am confused on my lineman's.
either way im gonna smack the tree so im hurt there (been there done that) but with the static rope I can more easily swing my lineman's up the tree and not feel like i need to drag it with my hands if you know what i mean. But if i fall i could get umm shock damage?
is there a dynamic rope out there that isnt so floppy that i would be able to use in a similar way to the static rope?
So many rope choices but I was specifically looking at static. I would never one stick and use wild edge steps when im alone and 4 sticks with aiders when im with my kids.
thanks,
Got my fingers caught under my lineman's on a fall once and MAN it hurt. So I was moving to dynamic on my lineman's and my tether, from reading all the above I think im good on my tether. but now i am confused on my lineman's.
either way im gonna smack the tree so im hurt there (been there done that) but with the static rope I can more easily swing my lineman's up the tree and not feel like i need to drag it with my hands if you know what i mean. But if i fall i could get umm shock damage?
is there a dynamic rope out there that isnt so floppy that i would be able to use in a similar way to the static rope?
So many rope choices but I was specifically looking at static. I would never one stick and use wild edge steps when im alone and 4 sticks with aiders when im with my kids.
thanks,
tailgunner
Well-Known Member
Dont fall.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2020
- Messages
- 1,557
Welcome to the 2TC club! Be sure to check out new innovations and ideas on the gazillion 2TC threads! Ideas have been tested, tried and modified. I'm only saying this because that video is so old, but Scott is the 2TC OG!
How do you fall on a tether? you can literally say the same thing to a person in a climber or a treestand?