Honestly, is remote releasing of rappel line that big of a deal?

[TradBowGuy]

What I've found is that for me, ease of rope removal depends on the tree, but there are tradeoffs in the system I'm using:

If it's a pretty straight tree, with no or just 1-2 branches, I use my Delta or oval quick link. Easiest to move up a tree for me.

If the tree has gnarly bark that catches the rope, or more than 3 branches, I go to a steel screw gate carabiner. A little harder going up, because it's heavier than the quick link, but easier & quicker for me when going around limbs.

If the tree looks like a creature with multiple appendages that's going to snatch you up & eat you, & has plenty of potential for rope hangups, , I go to my Kong Ovalone DNA Autoblock. I named her "Big Bertha," because she weighs almost half a pound! (Obviously, I'm not an "ultra,ultra light" guy!) And requires the most effort to keep snug when climbing. But there's NO WAY that I've found so far where she won't come down when you give her a hefty tug...I just gotta remember to step out of the way when she starts her trip down, so she doesn't give me a kiss on my forehead!

I just feel more secure with using steel to connect my line.

 

[BTaylor]

You're right. Can't speak for other, myself I'm not debating the working mechanic of an exploding hitch (but yeah, not the best name scheme haha). I'm saying that it add more possibility of user errors and unforeseen situations. Other than tying it wrong, I'm worry about accidentally pulling on the retrieval lines as I rappel down. So if the argument is the knot/hitch cinch when our bodyweight is applied, what if you got tangled with your retrieval line in a way that the retrieval line is supporting your weight? At that moment, wouldn't the cinch be release? All these videos I see have the rope line weighted when they tried to release the hitch but can't. In a normal situation it work fine. But what if your hitch slip and in a panic you grab onto your retrival line? Would that second that you stop yourself and the weight is not on your line be enough to God....EXPLODE the hitch?

I just rather not deal with any possible unexpected scenarios, as in if I can remove the possibility, I would. Not saying this is a solid idea/opinion etc, we all make our choices anytime we leave the ground. Only way to be 100% safe from falling is to sit on a log...

I would suggest learning to tie the hitch, then put it on a tree at ground level and weight it, unweight it and disengage it with your retrieval rope and see how much force is required to release it. If that gives you confidence to use it fine, if not, use a different method. One you have confidence in safely and repeatably using. If you are afraid of everything that could happen to you while hunting elevated, maybe just hunt from the ground. Plenty of folks are successful every year hunting from the ground.

 

[Ron1]

I have had to go back up the tree 3 times for a stuck rope. Also pulling the rope down and putting it away takes too much time and is sometimes hard sometimes easy. The Jrb exploding hitch solved all that.

 

[Horn]

You're right. Can't speak for other, myself I'm not debating the working mechanic of an exploding hitch (but yeah, not the best name scheme haha). I'm saying that it add more possibility of user errors and unforeseen situations. Other than tying it wrong, I'm worry about accidentally pulling on the retrieval lines as I rappel down. So if the argument is the knot/hitch cinch when our bodyweight is applied, what if you got tangled with your retrieval line in a way that the retrieval line is supporting your weight? At that moment, wouldn't the cinch be release? All these videos I see have the rope line weighted when they tried to release the hitch but can't. In a normal situation it work fine. But what if your hitch slip and in a panic you grab onto your retrival line? Would that second that you stop yourself and the weight is not on your line be enough to God....EXPLODE the hitch?

I just rather not deal with any possible unexpected scenarios, as in if I can remove the possibility, I would. Not saying this is a solid idea/opinion etc, we all make our choices anytime we leave the ground. Only way to be 100% safe from falling is to sit on a log...

I can't say for certain if you could get tangled or panic some how and get your weight transfered, and then end up falling. There's a lot of factors to consider so I'm not sure anyone could be sure.

To me that seems like a senerio where several things have gone wrong, so I think it's pretty unlikely. My assessment, maybe it could happen

 

[Samcirrus]

So I definitely agree that the correct "safe" term is Remote release! Not explosions and quick falls...
>m with @BTaylor in that i use hitches exclusively and that just won't work with the traditional method of pulling rappel rope down. I'm very confident in the JRB remote release hitch and use/d it after being able to tie it with my eyes closed. I use a separate dynaglide to pull the release so as to avoid confusion on the rappel. Have never had an issue, unlike the other way...

 

[Samcirrus]

Seriously though....has anyone sat for an hour or even 1/2 an hour and memorized the JRB hitch, because once you're confident in it, its night and day difference, especially after passing branches....
However to each their own and only do what yr confident in!

 

[thedutchtouch]

Returning to this- I think ultimately @BTaylor and @Samcirrus are correct, and that it comes down to personal comfort/familiarity with the remote release hitches. I am more comfortable abandoning my rope in the woods and buying another one than I am with hitches currently, so that is my main deciding factor. Not saying you should use my example for you.

In complete transparency, I have only had a few trees where rope retrieval would have been difficult, and generally will 2tc or use a secondary tether to get down slightly to rapell from under a crotch or branches and just have a telephone section of trunk under so the quick link works great for those scenarios. I don't think I climb weird enough trees most of the time and rope retrieval has only been an issue if I'm in a hurry or something. Perhaps that is telling as well and I need to get into the weird stuff more or stay down on the ground in ground cover.

 

[Samcirrus]

What i mean is...tying these release hitches has to be second nature for you by hunting season, otherwise, yes yr safer to use the regular method or climb down.

 

[Jammintree]

I want to preface my comments and questions by saying that I have no experience using “2TC” for ascending a tree, nor do I have experience using a dedicated rappel rope for descending. I use a DDRT rope climbing systems, based in old school arborist climbing methods. My technique is similar to JRB, only significantly more simple. I utilize many of the techniques you are discussing, but in the context of DDRT.

What I’m wondering is: by the time you’ve carried all the gear for 2TC and repelling with you into the woods, why not just DDRT or SRT? It’s the same amount of gear using essentially the same techniques. Using these systems you don’t need to tie knots or rig up mechanical devices at the end of the day in the dark. You’ve already rigged your entire system and tested it at ground level before ascending. I’m not asking this rhetorically, I am sincerely intrigued. I’ve been reading a lot of 2TC threads because I’ve have been considering incorporating the techniques.

 

[thedutchtouch]

I want to preface my comments and questions by saying that I have no experience using “2TC” for ascending a tree, nor do I have experience using a dedicated rappel rope for descending. I use a DDRT rope climbing systems, based in old school arborist climbing methods. My technique is similar to JRB, only significantly more simple. I utilize many of the techniques you are discussing, but in the context of DDRT.

What I’m wondering is: by the time you’ve carried all the gear for 2TC and repelling with you into the woods, why not just DDRT or SRT? It’s the same amount of gear using essentially the same techniques. Using these systems you don’t need to tie knots or rig up mechanical devices at the end of the day in the dark. You’ve already rigged your entire system and tested it at ground level before ascending. I’m not asking this rhetorically, I am sincerely intrigued. I’ve been reading a lot of 2TC threads because I’ve have been considering incorporating the techniques.

I don't srt or ddrt because I've given up on throwball accuracy and don't have presets. 2TC you basically only need two short tethers (if you climb down) and don't need a rappel rope at all. I've been experimenting with it but last season one sticked mostly/rappelled down so already have a 40' rope

 

[Jammintree]

I don't srt or ddrt because I've given up on throwball accuracy and don't have presets. 2TC you basically only need two short tethers (if you climb down) and don't need a rappel rope at all. I've been experimenting with it but last season one sticked mostly/rappelled down so already have a 40' rope

I’ve been considering using 2TC to ascend when I wanna get up a tree that I didn’t prep and can’t or don’t wanna get a throwball in. Once up there I can tie in with my DDRT system and be all set up for my descent at the end of the hunt. If I plan to return I can then leave a preset.

edit: I’m not trying to hijack this thread. It just seems like many of these ultralight climbing systems slowly migrate back to the same form as their ancestors.

 

[BTaylor]

I want to preface my comments and questions by saying that I have no experience using “2TC” for ascending a tree, nor do I have experience using a dedicated rappel rope for descending. I use a DDRT rope climbing systems, based in old school arborist climbing methods. My technique is similar to JRB, only significantly more simple. I utilize many of the techniques you are discussing, but in the context of DDRT.

What I’m wondering is: by the time you’ve carried all the gear for 2TC and repelling with you into the woods, why not just DDRT or SRT? It’s the same amount of gear using essentially the same techniques. Using these systems you don’t need to tie knots or rig up mechanical devices at the end of the day in the dark. You’ve already rigged your entire system and tested it at ground level before ascending. I’m not asking this rhetorically, I am sincerely intrigued. I’ve been reading a lot of 2TC threads because I’ve have been considering incorporating the techniques.

2 big reasons for me not use your system, time and effort to set it up and the amount of additional rope I would need to carry every hunt. To hang pre-sets for just the spots I have pins for would put me needing north of 7500' of paracord. That is for 4 properties, 2 private and 2 public. I am just getting started scouting a new to me chunk of public that is 170k acres and have another new to me public chunk that I havent started on yet that is another 70k acres. By hunting season I would need over 10k feet of paracord to hang presets. Nope not happening lol. Would also need at least 100' rope to consistently be able to get into every spot because lots of the areas I hunt dont have limbs on climbable trees until 40+ feet. If I only had a dozen or so spots, it might be different.

 

[BTaylor]

Just went to EWO to check and they have 1k foot roles of 550 on sale for $70. I'm not spending $700 on paracord for pre-sets.

 

[Samcirrus]

I want to preface my comments and questions by saying that I have no experience using “2TC” for ascending a tree, nor do I have experience using a dedicated rappel rope for descending. I use a DDRT rope climbing systems, based in old school arborist climbing methods. My technique is similar to JRB, only significantly more simple. I utilize many of the techniques you are discussing, but in the context of DDRT.

What I’m wondering is: by the time you’ve carried all the gear for 2TC and repelling with you into the woods, why not just DDRT or SRT? It’s the same amount of gear using essentially the same techniques. Using these systems you don’t need to tie knots or rig up mechanical devices at the end of the day in the dark. You’ve already rigged your entire system and tested it at ground level before ascending. I’m not asking this rhetorically, I am sincerely intrigued. I’ve been reading a lot of 2TC threads because I’ve have been considering incorporating the techniques.

Good questions but I feel there's alot of misunderstanding in your concept of 2TC. It should be simple and light while at the same time being an SRT/DDRT/JRB system (the difference depends on rope length and pretied hitches)
Below I'll break down the 3 main 2TC systems and how much stuff you're bringing into the woods...

 

[Samcirrus]

1: ultralight- 2 rope tethers, 1 with a footloop and the other with a bridge attachment hitch/device.
This is the same minimum rope requirement for any other system ie: LB and tether.
...

 

[Samcirrus]

2. More versatile: 2 ropes again. 1 short tether with hitch/device and footloop. 1 rappel length rope with bridge attachment hitch/device. This is your 2nd tether.

-Options for comfort include a thighloop or second footloop on your rappel tether.
-Options for safety include a second bridge attachment on your short/foot tether.
- Options for going around branches include a 3rd rope/LB. OR simply use the second bridge attachment on your short/foot tether in and adjustable way to keep you tight to the tree while moving your rappel tether around the branch.

Again this is the same minimum requirement for most other rope climbing methods including 1 sticking.

 

[Samcirrus]

3 Much more versatile:
NEED-2 ropes and a Garda hitch footloop or foot ascender/s of your choice.
1 short tether or lineman's belt with footloop attachment and second bridge attachment for safety/ going around branches.
1 extra long rope for either JRB/Ddrt (which could simply be SRT as well).
The JRB rope also needs a second hitch and the above mentioned foot ascenders or Garda hitch footloop.

This is equal to an SRT/Ddrt setup. Include a LB
...

 

[Jammintree]

3 Much more versatile:
NEED-2 ropes and a Garda hitch footloop or foot ascender/s of your choice.
1 short tether or lineman's belt with footloop attachment and second bridge attachment for safety/ going around branches.
1 extra long rope for either JRB/Ddrt (which could simply be SRT as well).
The JRB rope also needs a second hitch and the above mentioned foot ascenders or Garda hitch footloop.

This is equal to an SRT/Ddrt setup. Include a LB
...

Number three is basically what I carry for DDRT except that I use exclusively friction hitches, no mechanical devices and I tie all my knots at the tree. I also carry a throwball kit most of the time.

I can’t imagine not being able to rappel out of a tree at a moments notice; for me that’s just an essential.

It would be interesting to do a weight comparison between the different systems and also itemize the limitations and benefits of each. This would be a great way for all of us to really see the trade offs.

 

[Samcirrus]

4 Simply Complex:
1 JRB/Ddrt length rope with an eye on each end(tied or spliced) and the Garda hitch footloop or other foot ascender.
1 end is the foot tether and has a simple hitch for a footloop (this is between and in the opposite cinching direction of the first ascender hitch)
The other end is the same but for your bridge attachment.
The beauty of this is if you have a preset paracord...you can just JRB/Ddrt/Srt with the ascender hitch and the Garda footloop/foot ascender.
You can also 2TC and then at the top or when at a branch you can do a JRB rappel which is the simplest way to retrieve your rappel rope.
You can have a 5th hitch as your 2nd bridge attachment point and branch passing safety system.
You're always free to bring a LB for extra security/emergency.

 

[Samcirrus]

Number three is basically what I carry for DDRT except that I use exclusively friction hitches, no mechanical devices and I tie all my knots at the tree. I also carry a throwball kit most of the time.

I can’t imagine not being able to rappel out of a tree at a moments notice; for me that’s just an essential.

It would be interesting to do a weight comparison between the different systems and also itemize the limitations and benefits of each. This would be a great way for all of us to really see the trade offs.

Same for the most part except all my friction hitches are pre tied and I don't mess with them during the season other than to inspect them.
I use a hybrid of my #4 classification and some new ideas and techniques...