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Lets talk about scent, snow and cold temps!

1simplemann

Well-Known Member
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Joined
Sep 6, 2014
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967
I posted this question on another sight but I figured I'd ask here too. Long story short, it's cold here and it was bitterly cold this past weekend. Snow is on the ground already. 6 hunts and 6 times deer crossed my path or walked on it. Not once did they become alarmed! No special scent measures taken. 5 of the 6 hunts deer walked downwind of me. Twice they acted nervous but they kept coming back to try to figure out where I was. They never blew off. They just walked away stiff legged. Also as a bonus a coyote crossed my path and came in DOWNWIND. He had no clue I was there. You guys find that snow and cold temps screw up a deer's nose? My partner's results mirrored mine so I figured I'd ask if you guys have the same results.
 
I've read up on this topic in the past but I can't remember all of the details right now. One thing that I can tell you for sure though is this. There is much less in the woods when winter kicks in. With all of the plants and leaves gone, there is much less surface area for your scent to get caught on.

This part is just speculation. I wonder if scent doesn't hold on the snowy surface and gets distributed much quicker. It makes sense to me that it would have an easy time attaching and getting hung up on leaves and the ground than it would on the snowy surface.
 
There is some science to leaving scent behind, unfortunately I don't have anything scholarly to quote (I'll have to try to dig up the article I read a few years ago):

The gist is that scent is emitted from our bodies in a few different ways - as solid, liquids, and gasses. A basic principle of all matter is that the warmer it is, the faster the molecules move. And vice versa for cold - they slow down. Think boiling water. The more you heat it up, the faster the molecules are moving. You cool it down - say to a freezing - the matter stops moving altogether. Gasses in particular become 'heavier' as they are cooled and 'lighter' as they are warmed up. That's why as the sun warms the earth thermal wind patterns tend to become more active, and when it cools off in the evening, the wind generally dies down a little.

Anyway, the cooler temps will cause your human scent to be 'heavier' and not distribute as much through the wind. It will still drop and accumulate on other matter along your trail. Just not as much as if it were a warm sunny day.

Also, another property of matter is that the colder things get the less they exhibit other properties (such as smell and taste). For example a frozen turd versus a room temperature turd. The frozen turd will be far less fragrant than the room temperature one.

As for taste you can do a simple test at home. Put a beer in your freezer and leave one on the counter (works particularly well with strong craft beers). Take the one in the freezer out when it's very, very cold. Now try sipping on both of them. You will notice that your cold beer simply tastes 'cold' and you might get some of the strong bittering additions (like hops) on the flavor profile with little bouquet, whereas the room temp beer will 'open up' more both in terms of bouquet and flavor profile, and allow you to smell more of the beers fragrance and also experience a more complex depth of flavor with the grains, hops, and other additions.
 
Interesting stuff! All I know is that I've never had a coyote downwind of me and stay there for very long. Temps are going to be in the 20-30's this weekend. Snow may be all gone. I'll see if there is a difference.
 
d_rek said:
For example a frozen turd versus a room temperature turd. The frozen turd will be far less fragrant than the room temperature one.


Totally agree with everything you wrote, its the reason i often try to heat scent when I use it.

This example made me laugh though. Sometimes I feel like a frozen turd sitting out there not seeing anything. lol
 
Temps and moisture have a ton to do with scent

I used to rabbit hunt with beagles a ton back in the mid 60's through 80's and temps, moisture and arid conditions always dictated how fast and well the dogs could track the rabbits. In temps above freezing where the top layer of snow was damp the dogs could literally run the tracks and never get off them. The lower the temps got and the dryer or arid the top layer of snow, the more they struggled to stay on track. In single digit to below zero temps, the dogs struggled so bad that we rarely went. Attached a couple pics and let it be known that there were a lot more rabbits back then due to less predation from coyotes (were none where I hunted) and birds of prey such as owls and hawks. Nowadays there are tons of each everywhere.

Moisture conducts both cold and heat far faster than air and all anyone has to do is jump in a 35 degree lake (no matter what hunting clothing they wear) and see how long they survive before succumbing to hypothermia. Wear the same stuff or go naked outside in 35 degree air and you will survive quite a while.

When I'm in the plains of Kansas where it is extremely dry and arid, my hands and face become so dry that the skin on my fingers crack open in places and my lips crack as well. I feel that when I touch anything once my fingers are dried out that I'm not leaving much if any odor because there is no moisture on them to rub off. In Michigan where the humidity is always rather high, my hands are always moist and I leave more odor on whatever I touch. I also sweat much easier in Michigan.

When a rabbit runs in snow with a damp surface layer the fur on their feet get damp and leave more odor in the damp snow. When their fur is dry and the snow is dry, less scent is left behind.

There is no doubt that in dry arid conditions, snow or otherwise, there is less scent left by all creatures.
 

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John thanks for the reply. I was just wondering if anyone else was seeing what I was. We've had alot of single digit or below zero temps lately. Deer coming in downwind and crossing our paths all the time especially with snow on the ground. Our scent control IMHO was less than ideal at times. It didn't matter. Saw plenty of deer with no negative results. If it were earlier in the year? No way, we would have got busted. Ended up with nice 125" 5x4 in 10 below! Cold!!!
 
That's absolutely awesome. You have no idea how much I love hearing about hunters bucking the elements and prevailing, especially on a P&Y class buck.

Hunting in severe cold when it calm (no wind) is tough as it seems like every noise is plugged into a huge amplifier. Severe cold also makes the snow very crunchy, making entries tough concerning noise.

Might I ask what's your secret to staying warm on stand during severe conditions. In fact you might want to start a topic on it as many hunters struggle with cold weather hunting because they don't know how to stay warm for more than a couple hours on stand. Make it "How do you stay warm in 20 degree and below temperatures".

Congrats
 
Well as i see it, you can't kill em' from the couch! I only have weekends to hunt so if I still have a tag I'm in the woods especially during the rut. Weather just makes things interesting. Honestly I dind't hunt that morning mostly because of the wind direction and my available stand choices. Glad I didn't hunt! Woke up to a semi-blizzard. 6-8" of snow when we were only supposed to get 1-2". 15 below temps. I shoveled snow all morning at my house and MnL's. I just put on a bunch of layers and extra socks and went hunting. I got in the stand late due other hunters being at my 1st choice of parking areas. The lady who rents the house didn't come out and say it but I definitely got the impression that she would prefer that i hunted elsewhere so I moved down the road 3/4 of a mile. Same woods, different parking, different owner. I was late so I jumped in my partner's stand since it was already set. He didn't hunt because it was too cold he said. His loss! I'm ready at 3:45 and had deer come by 5 min later. It's so cold that put my fleece vest on the platform to quiet my steps on the LW and as a layer between the cold metal and my feet. More on this later. The next 45 mins were constant action. Bucks chasing does every where coming from all directions. 2 buck fights! The 6th buck was the one I shot.He went 15 yds and flipped over backwards. After further review, he's not 125" maybe 120" but no regrets. Not my best buck but after 3 yrs of EHD there aren't many bigger bucks around. I filled my tag on the next to last day of the season. My secret is layers, lots of layers. i had 5 layers top and bottom. My body was chilly but not painfully cold. My feet are my problem. Standing on a cast aluminum platform in 10 below sucks the heat right out of my feet! Painfully! Constantly wiggling my feet to get some blood flow. I've recently started put any extra clothes I have in my pack on the platform to help with this but a thicker pad is needed i think. My pack boots have some room in them so next year I think I going to try putting some hand warmers taped to my toes. I was going to try heated insoles but they seem to get bad reviews when used in single digits or below zero temps. I have friend who wears these giant puffy booties. He says his feet never get cold. To me that's just one more thing to carry to the stand but if it keeps a guy on stand longer it might be the way to go. I will say this though, I love bowhunting on a cold , quiet day with no wind, fresh snow and during the rut. You can sneak right in to your tree, deer don't seem to smell you, with snow camo they don't see you. I find it refreshing and exciting.
 
If I could kill deer from the couch I'd be 5' 8" tall and weight 240 like my dad did. Sometime I guess that impression may come across but I work very hard at bow hunting and work out every single day for a minimum of an hour outside of the actual season.

If you ever see them, purchase a few Grabber Adhesive Body Warmers and once on stand and cooled down from your entry, on your base layer (outside of layer) place one over each kidney (your sides) and one over your sternum. Carry a Zip Lok quart sized freezer bag with you and once the hunt is over, peel them off, stick them together and put them in the bag and seal. Cutting off the air supply, shuts them down and they have a 12 hour life and can be re-used again. These are the absolute biggest sleeper item in the industry for keeping warm. Prior to using them I could maybe remain on stand for 3 hours in teens temps. Now I can sit all day no matter the temps and have used as many as 5 on a single hunt (over each kidney, one over sternum, one in mid back, and one under hat.
 
Hi John,

Been using Grabber warmers for years as i'm a bonafied MI Ice Fisherman :D

But the bigger question is: what are you doing to keep your feet warm?

I'm *very* close to purchasing the Baffin Titans. I haven't found much, in all of my online research, that comes close to the Baffins. Are you still using them to keep your toes toasty? I see a lot of MI hunters using the Arctic shield boot blankets. To me seems like an extra few pieces of gear to stow and worry about, not to mention how they would hold up to the abuses of saddle hunting.

Thanks,
d_rek

P.S.
The username is an abbreviate of my name, Derek. :D
 
John & 1Simpleman I have struggled fro years myself to figure out how to stay warm and stay on stand in extremely cold conditions and have found 3 things that work but all have their drawbacks or Achilles heel and I just ordered a Aero Hunter so I haven't tried them out of a saddle yet only fixed position stands or ground blinds. The first thing I do is put hand warmers in my pockets, muff, and boot blankets but not actually wear it just carry it in strapped over my pack for my Arctic Shield and under for the HBS. I walk in as slowly as I can because I have layers of silk, fleece, and wool pants on and I sweat very easily especially if I wear anything on my head. Second once in the stand I let myself cool down and when I start to feel a chill that's when I start to put on the clothes with the hand warmers. Finally I put the Arctic Shield boot warmers on my boots or in extremely cold situations I've taken the liners out of my pack boots and put them in the AS BB's along with some toe warmers and that works great. The only downside to that is having a place to put your boots so I've only done this with the pack boot liners in ground blinds not tree stands. With this system I've been able to sit for up to 4 or 5 in really brutal cold temps and be very comfortable but the Arctic Shield parka and bibs are bulky and a little bit noisy and the HBS is bulky and has to be slid off to shoot and the zipper in cold still weather sounds loud to me. The biggest problem I have is getting to my hunting location without working up a sweat that will cause be to be chilled once I stop moving but otherwise this system is as close as I've gotten to a fix for real cold weather hunting. If forced to pick one item of clothing over the other I would choose the Arctic Shield especially because it very warm without restricting my movement and I think you can easily use it with your saddle the HBS I think would be much more difficult. I hope this helps.

Roger
 
Stykbow1 said:
John & 1Simpleman I have struggled fro years myself to figure out how to stay warm and stay on stand in extremely cold conditions and have found 3 things that work but all have their drawbacks or Achilles heel and I just ordered a Aero Hunter so I haven't tried them out of a saddle yet only fixed position stands or ground blinds. The first thing I do is put hand warmers in my pockets, muff, and boot blankets but not actually wear it just carry it in strapped over my pack for my Arctic Shield and under for the HBS. I walk in as slowly as I can because I have layers of silk, fleece, and wool pants on and I sweat very easily especially if I wear anything on my head. Second once in the stand I let myself cool down and when I start to feel a chill that's when I start to put on the clothes with the hand warmers. Finally I put the Arctic Shield boot warmers on my boots or in extremely cold situations I've taken the liners out of my pack boots and put them in the AS BB's along with some toe warmers and that works great. The only downside to that is having a place to put your boots so I've only done this with the pack boot liners in ground blinds not tree stands. With this system I've been able to sit for up to 4 or 5 in really brutal cold temps and be very comfortable but the Arctic Shield parka and bibs are bulky and a little bit noisy and the HBS is bulky and has to be slid off to shoot and the zipper in cold still weather sounds loud to me. The biggest problem I have is getting to my hunting location without working up a sweat that will cause be to be chilled once I stop moving but otherwise this system is as close as I've gotten to a fix for real cold weather hunting. If forced to pick one item of clothing over the other I would choose the Arctic Shield especially because it very warm without restricting my movement and I think you can easily use it with your saddle the HBS I think would be much more difficult. I hope this helps.

Roger

Hi Roger,

I've done a lot of single digit sits in SELP Michigan. The worst of it are cold digits on the feet and hand. Hands are easier to manage, as you can use a good muff with 2-3 hand warmers. I've also to found this to be the case with saddle hunting.

The bigger issue is cold toes.

Since you are sitting suspended without any thing to prevent cold air from moving around your feet it is much easier for your feet to get cold. When I sit in a ground blind or even a hang-on tree stand I can lay a garment or even my "therm-a-seat" on the ground to prevent cold air and frozen base from seeping into my toes. I have found that toe warmers ONLY work when you have a LOT of extra room in your boots (ie: I have a pair of sorel pac boots that I use for ice fishing that are an extra size. I feel like I'm swimming in them, but my feet also never get cold in them.) When I wear my 7mm neoprene rubber boots, even with adequate layering, out in sub 20F temps they will start getting cold within 2 hours of sitting. Because these boots are tighter I cannot effectively use toe warmers with them.

I still haven't figure out cold feet for both regular hang-on stand and saddle hunting and am anxiously awaiting advice.

Regards,
d_rek
 
My go to boots for extreme cold is a couple older pairs of LaCrosse, I think there called, Ice Kings (insulated below knee rubber boot with a heavy removable liner) and of course they are no longer made. The best boots on the market now (that are not huge and cumbersome) are Baffin Titans and they are made in Canada and are very similar to the Lacrosse boots in that the boot has insulation in it and it has a removable liner.

I also use Grabber Toe warmers and adhere one on each sock over my toes. One of the keys to making toe or foot warmers work in rubber boots is to not have so many socks that they can't get some amount of air. All air activated warmers, no matter the item or company, will only work if they get air. Toe and foot warmers are made quite differently that Hand, Mega, and Adhesive Body warmers. Hand Mega and Body warmers have smaller holes in the fabric than toe warmers because they are typically placed where air flow is not an issue. Muffs, pockets, and anywhere under clothing, there is plenty of air to make them get warm as designed. The fabric used to make Toe and Foot warmers have much larger holes (not visible to the human eye) because they are made for inside boots where there is little air flow. Toe and Foot warmers were and are actually designed for leather and Cordura exterior boots because they have some breathability. We don't wear leather or Cordura boots for that exact reason, Cordura breaths as does the seams in leather boots and either will allow foot odor to escape.

Rubber boots don't breath and therefore toe or foot warmers struggle to work very well in them. The looser the throat of the rubber boots, the more air that can get in and make the toe or foot warmers work to some extent. When the warmers are placed over your toes, they work best as there is usually some space above your toes. They should not be placed under your socks because when you walk you'll depress them and also your foot weight will cut off what little air that gets into the boot.

If anyone wants to test the fact that toe warmers have larger holes designed for lower air flow try this. Toe warmers are typically about 6 hour warmers when used in boots. Take a pair of toe warmers out of their package and place them in the open air and see how long they last before going dead, it will be less than an hour because they are getting to much air. If you took a toe warmer and adhered it to a base layer as you would an adhesive body warmer, it would burn you because it gets to hot from all the air.
 
For me the biggest trick is staying dry. This means a slow walk and possibly a change in base layer. I walk in wearing only a base layer and try to move at a pace which keeps me just warm enough not to shiver. At stand, I change into a new base layer (bagging the first one) before dressing up.
Part of my set up is to use a cycling shirt with the 3 rear pockets. Sometimes finding adhesive warmers is difficult but there is never a shortage of drop ins. I use the drop ins in the rear pockets and save the adhesives for really cold days when the drop ins aren't enough. It's easy to unzip and stick them on my front while in my harness.
Pocket warmers have been the biggest boon for me. I find too many layers to become counter productive and cumbersome.
- dry base layer!
-cycling shirt
- thin fleece
- arctic shield bib
-down parka ( don't worry about the colour, just get something loose fitting and warm)
- blaze or camo shell large enough to fit over parka.
- pouch with hand warmers
- full face hat that can keep draft out of neck

Since adding the down parka I've stayed much warmer. This in turn has helped my hands and feet. I use pack boots large enough for warm socks and room for air. Dry socks are a big help on stand as well, so I might change those after a long walk.


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Prior to the down parka I would use other cold weather hunting jackets but none could compare to the down. Also I can compress the down into a stuff sack to reduce the bulk for the walk in and out


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John Eberhart said:
My go to boots for extreme cold is a couple older pairs of LaCrosse, I think there called, Ice Kings (insulated below knee rubber boot with a heavy removable liner) and of course they are no longer made. The best boots on the market now (that are not huge and cumbersome) are Baffin Titans and they are made in Canada and are very similar to the Lacrosse boots in that the boot has insulation in it and it has a removable liner.

Thanks for the feedback John. I have a pair of lacrosse boots for early to midseason, but they just don't quite cut it for late season hunts.

Does anyone have any experience with Kamik Goliath 3 boots? In my research about Baffin's i've also been finding a lot of positive feedback about these boots (also made in canada).

They are technically marketed as work boots and not hunting boots, but some of the reviews i've read said they perform exceptional for hunting, and also have a steel toe - something the Baffin's don't.
 
My experience with steel toe boots is that the steel gets cold very rapidly and transmits the cold to your toes because the steel is close to your toes. Steel toes are designed for work boots.
 
John, d_rek, & fawnzy,

All great info and John it explains why the toe warmers were cranking in the Arctic Shield boot blankets with the wool pack boot liner, lots of room and lots of air, it is really warm and comfortable but I don't know how well it would hold up to stand on tree steps for any length of time. Derek thanks for the tip on the Baffin Titans they look really good and the price isn't too bad either. I had a real expensive pair of Scheel, I think I butchered the name, pack boots but they pressed into the back of my calf to the point where after a couple hours walking I was really sore and couldn't wear them. I gave them to my buddy and they seem to work fine for him must just be me!!!?? :D Fawnzy I really like down as well but hate most of the shells that they put on them noisy and shiny but I used to use a Feather Friends down vest for years under my hunting coat and it worked great until somehow it shrunk, how it happened is a mystery to me! :roll: I would jump on a down coat with a wool or fleece shell, I wish I had the equipment to make my own. The cycling shirt is a great idea as well years ago Screaming Eagle used to offer a vest that had pockets all around it to put hand warmers in and many people said it worked great light and super warm due to the hand warmers. Again if I had the equipment something like that wouldn't be to difficult to make. Thanks again guys for your input and great ideas I appreciate it!

Roger
 
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