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Nutterbuster Spreads(sheets) It Wide Open

Maybe and I’m not sure where you live but a farmer has nothing to lose if the secret gets out. The jacked up bedazzled country boys lease would go up if the word got out. At least it would in my area.
He'd potentially lose big bucks to road hunters and poachers. I'm not sure where you live either but a fair amount of farmers I know enjoy hunting and dislike trespassers and poachers. Many have crop insurance for damage due to wildlife that to my knowledge doesn't account for Billy Bob leaving ruts in the field due to poaching or trespassing. Also there are very few leases here. Its just a different perspective in a different area.
 
All I can say is I guess P&Y would get more entries if they produced top notch deer mounts.

The data is ****.
No. The data is incomplete but useful to compare regions. If we're going for frankness your ability to interpret it is ****.

It'd be one thing if you said something like, "Hmmm. New York seems to have pretty good trophy numbers per square mile. Body size and antler weight look good. Population seems high, but it's a blue state that's highly developed so it's possible actual hunter numbers make for much lower pressure and/or NYC skews the data." You could say, "Well, it for sure isn't the midwest, but for the Mid-Atlantic/Northeaster region that's actually not that bad and I bet there are areas where the hunting is probably quite good." You could say all kinds of things that may or not be true to various extents but would prove you could look at data and draw inferences.

But nah. "Grasping at straws", bruh. Data's junk. Nothing to see here.

For the rest of the tribe, I fully acknowledge not every deer gets reported. I personally believe the under/over reporting washes as a whole. Or at least it's more useful to assume it does than speculating about it without some way to quantify it. It's not like the data suggests something stupid like Iowa being a worse state than New York. @Plebe hasn't been clear about what part of the data is **** but I'm assuming he's surprised at the difference between New York and Iowa? I think surprise is a valid reaction. I was shocked when I realized how bad Alabama sucked. Even the good parts. Then I started really thinking about it and firmly believe that the difference is real.

Here's why I think that using the P&Y database to help you pick an area to target scouting and then hunting efforts is perhaps the smartest move you can make as a hunter who wants to shoot more bucks.

P&Y bucks are a subset of the "big buck" set, which is a subset of the "buck set." It's very voluntary reporting, which sucks. But what if there was a way to take the voluntarily reported subset and compare it to a larger set of datapoints that were less voluntarily reported or ideally nonvoluntary? What if you had access to involuntarily reported data on just bucks killed in an area? If the P&Y subset tracked the bigger, involuntary set accurately, then it would be much more likely to be a useful set.

Luckily, Alabama DCNR has been pushing HARD to make "GameCheck" a thing. It's still not strictly involuntary, since you self report through snail mail, a phone call, or an app. But the barriers to entry are VERY low. Alabama puts the contact info all over your license, WMA check boards, and on the front of their digest that's carried in every gas station and tackle shop and hardware store in Alabama. Our DCNR director has leaned into it hard and for the past 2 years made it very clear that his game wardens would be checking out every pickup truck bed and skinning shed they could and you WOULD be getting a nice fat ticket if caught not reporting a deer. So instead of relying on whatever a P&Y reporter is, you're just relying on the guy who killed a buck being a law-abiding individual or an outlaw who feels the reward doesn't outweigh the risk.

Alabama has a very small (sub 200) amount of P&Y bucks to play with. So I added them to the AWR info which generally tracks with P&Y data. More P&Y deer in a county, more AWR deer in a county. Take the top 20 counties for "trophy" deer in alabama, divide them by the bucks reported via gamecheck, take the mean, average deviation, and standard deviation, and...

The Data Isn't ****

It isn't perfect. Far from it. But it tracks.
 
Note that the above data is every P&Y and AWR deer ever reported in each of the top 20 counties for big bucks (you're welcome, bama boys) contrasted to 2021 buck harvest results as reported to the DCNR through gamecheck. Perfect it isn't, but if Spartan Forge is interesting when they get it right 2 out of 3 times then I want my mother-luvin cookie dang it.
 
Hey, isn’t P&Y Bow and Arrow only? Would there not be many more deer of the same caliber taken by rifle? Is there recorded information on those deer taken by rifle or is that not a thing? If the data was available I could see rifle bucks either solidifying your hypothesis and narrowing down your big buck areas for what ever reason or it could flatten the curve substantially. In the latter case you would still likely see big bucks in particular area but the % difference would be less than the current numbers.
 
Hey, isn’t P&Y Bow and Arrow only? Would there not be many more deer of the same caliber taken by rifle? Is there recorded information on those deer taken by rifle or is that not a thing? If the data was available I could see rifle bucks either solidifying your hypothesis and narrowing down your big buck areas for what ever reason or it could flatten the curve substantially. In the latter case you would still likely see big bucks in particular area but the % difference would be less than the current numbers.
Not really. B&C only starts recording at like 150 or 160 and nobody cares about Jackie Bushman's reporting system or the safari club.
 
dang so yea lots of deer not getting accounted for. It doesn’t discount your trends, but would more than likely flatten them some. The p&y and AWR would be more on par so if that’s trending the same then maybe the difference is that great after all. If you’re looking at P&Y And AWR together you’re probably double dipping though right?
 
dang so yea lots of deer not getting accounted for. It doesn’t discount your trends, but would more than likely flatten them some. The p&y and AWR would be more on par so if that’s trending the same then maybe the difference is that great after all. If you’re looking at P&Y And AWR together you’re probably double dipping though right?
Yes. My analysis of alabama is probably more accurate than going off of just p&y data but i don't think by much. I think if anything alabama is probably a state with way more room for variance because we shoot a LOT of small deer and have very few data points even with AWR.
 
Yes. My analysis of alabama is probably more accurate than going off of just p&y data but i don't think by much. I think if anything alabama is probably a state with way more room for variance because we shoot a LOT of small deer and have very few data points even with AWR.
Oh I though AWR was Alabama record but it sounds like you’re saying something else?
 
I won’t report and neither do my buddies...due to out of state hunters looking at reports...if you southern/eastern boys take up point restrictions and number of buck restrictions I bet your odds of “trophy” deer will increase
 
No. The data is incomplete but useful to compare regions. If we're going for frankness your ability to interpret it is ****.

It'd be one thing if you said something like, "Hmmm. New York seems to have pretty good trophy numbers per square mile. Body size and antler weight look good. Population seems high, but it's a blue state that's highly developed so it's possible actual hunter numbers make for much lower pressure and/or NYC skews the data." You could say, "Well, it for sure isn't the midwest, but for the Mid-Atlantic/Northeaster region that's actually not that bad and I bet there are areas where the hunting is probably quite good." You could say all kinds of things that may or not be true to various extents but would prove you could look at data and draw inferences.

But nah. "Grasping at straws", bruh. Data's junk. Nothing to see here.

For the rest of the tribe, I fully acknowledge not every deer gets reported. I personally believe the under/over reporting washes as a whole. Or at least it's more useful to assume it does than speculating about it without some way to quantify it. It's not like the data suggests something stupid like Iowa being a worse state than New York. @Plebe hasn't been clear about what part of the data is **** but I'm assuming he's surprised at the difference between New York and Iowa? I think surprise is a valid reaction. I was shocked when I realized how bad Alabama sucked. Even the good parts. Then I started really thinking about it and firmly believe that the difference is real.

Here's why I think that using the P&Y database to help you pick an area to target scouting and then hunting efforts is perhaps the smartest move you can make as a hunter who wants to shoot more bucks.

P&Y bucks are a subset of the "big buck" set, which is a subset of the "buck set." It's very voluntary reporting, which sucks. But what if there was a way to take the voluntarily reported subset and compare it to a larger set of datapoints that were less voluntarily reported or ideally nonvoluntary? What if you had access to involuntarily reported data on just bucks killed in an area? If the P&Y subset tracked the bigger, involuntary set accurately, then it would be much more likely to be a useful set.

Luckily, Alabama DCNR has been pushing HARD to make "GameCheck" a thing. It's still not strictly involuntary, since you self report through snail mail, a phone call, or an app. But the barriers to entry are VERY low. Alabama puts the contact info all over your license, WMA check boards, and on the front of their digest that's carried in every gas station and tackle shop and hardware store in Alabama. Our DCNR director has leaned into it hard and for the past 2 years made it very clear that his game wardens would be checking out every pickup truck bed and skinning shed they could and you WOULD be getting a nice fat ticket if caught not reporting a deer. So instead of relying on whatever a P&Y reporter is, you're just relying on the guy who killed a buck being a law-abiding individual or an outlaw who feels the reward doesn't outweigh the risk.

Alabama has a very small (sub 200) amount of P&Y bucks to play with. So I added them to the AWR info which generally tracks with P&Y data. More P&Y deer in a county, more AWR deer in a county. Take the top 20 counties for "trophy" deer in alabama, divide them by the bucks reported via gamecheck, take the mean, average deviation, and standard deviation, and...

The Data Isn't ****

It isn't perfect. Far from it. But it tracks.

I don't know how you can know that it tracks. Truly.

I can't say why a person chooses to enter or not enter a buck for a record book. I can't say that there is across the board equivalency or not in similar decision making across the country, my state, or my region.

I know that 6 is 10% of 60, 3 is 10% of 30, that 5 is 10% of 50.

I know when numbers are small, percentages are impacted heavily by single incidences.

I know of numerous incidences. Enough to make me rethink my initial position, which was parallel to yours.

What you'd like to think is acceptable deviation, I can't anymore say is or isn't.

Folks can believe whatever they want. I'm not here to compete intellectually. Feel free to discount what I know about the hunting scene in NY and to have a good laugh over what taxidermists wouldn't know about bucks in an area that a national database and hunter from Alabama would. Entirely up to you.

I'll amend one comment, the data isn't ****, the lack of representative data renders the data ****.
 
North Carolina County-By-County Analysis

Hey all you tarheel boys. Don't worry too much about the fact that in over 100 years you only have 300 P&Y bucks on record and that 77% of them came from 20% of your counties. I just talked with a taxidermist up there and he says he's STILL trying to mount all the big bucks he got shot last year. Better lock down those lease agreements because I hear the Drury Brothers and old Mickey Waddel are looking to start filming over there!!! There's all KINDA big bucks up thar!

Thanks man! That's pretty handy to have, though it more or less confirms local gossip. Dan or Haw River valleys make big (er) bucks.
 
I don't know how you can know that it tracks. Truly.

I can't say why a person chooses to enter or not enter a buck for a record book. I can't say that there is across the board equivalency or not in similar decision making across the country, my state, or my region.

I know that 6 is 10% of 60, 3 is 10% of 30, that 5 is 10% of 50.

I know when numbers are small, percentages are impacted heavily by single incidences.

I know of numerous incidences. Enough to make me rethink my initial position, which was parallel to yours.

What you'd like to think is acceptable deviation, I can't anymore say is or isn't.

Folks can believe whatever they want. I'm not here to compete intellectually. Feel free to discount what I know about the hunting scene in NY and to have a good laugh over what taxidermists wouldn't know about bucks in an area that a national database and hunter from Alabama would. Entirely up to you.

I'll amend one comment, the data isn't ****, the lack of representative data renders the data ****.
Let's try this. What state do you hunt?
 
Let me see if I can get this right.

Population is human population and based on USDA 2019 population estimation. Square mileage is also based on current USDA info. P&Y numbers all obviously pulled from their database. The P&Y number reflects every typical whitetail recorded in that state from last year back to 1908. The mean, median, and mode are all based on the most recent 100 animals harvested in each state except in cases where there were less than 100 deer (looking at you, Vermont). In that case I used all of them. I didn't calculate those figures based on the full data set because holy-crap-are-you-kidding-me-that's-a-lot-of-deer-Wisconsin.


P&Y, Population, Land Area Data for Every State Bordering or East of the Mississippi

REGIONAL EXAMPLES (population and land area data pulled from 2014 American Community Survey. easier for me to pull)

Iowa County-By-County Analysis (Midwestern Region Example)

New Hampshire County-By-County Analysis (Northeastern Region Example)

North Carolina County-By-County Analysis (Southern Region Example)

New York County-By-County Analysis (Middle-Atlantic Region Example)
Would be interested to see rather than population, hunting license sales
 
Wow, @KYHunter is right. I have a family member who does taxidermy in NY. Knowing what area taxidermists take in each year, the data is laughable.

I guess it's somewhere to start, but it looks more like grasping at straws than I thought.
The P&Y data is laughable or talking to taxidermist is laughable?
 
Even better. Can somebody tell me where all the hunting public has done their annual challenge videos? State is fine but county would be finer if any stalkers know it. Let's see if trophy potential predicted by p&y sampling tracks with the crewa success.

That’s good stuff right there


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Even better. Can somebody tell me where all the hunting public has done their annual challenge videos? State is fine but county would be finer if any stalkers know it. Let's see if trophy potential predicted by p&y sampling tracks with the crewa success.
[/QUOTED /]
I bet if you reach out you will be invited and be able to show your stuff!
 
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