Webbing Bridge on Kestrel?

[justsomedude]

Any one messed with it?

I used webbing on my OneHair seat and SitDrag. Rated 4,000# and is commonly used as Rope tie in anchors, Belay Extenders, Rappel extension etc. Slides freely across carabiners. Easily inspected, easy to confirm tails in the knots.
Won't wear down the Kestrel loops as much as rope would I think...

Overhand Retrace with ample tails is lighter and smaller than Predator rope. The webbing weighs about 1.2oz. The Predator Rope weighs 6.6oz (plus we've eliminated the 4oz caribiner)

Webbing is cheap and readily available and easy to quickly replace and doesn't require any special equipment or splicing skills. One quick look at it and you know if it's right or wrong.

Drawbacks? Only one's I can come up with are that you can't use a prusik on it if you wanted adjustable bridge (I don't) and then the big question: Any reason that we don't want our sole life connection on webbing as opposed to rope?

When wet, webbing strength reduces a little but still usually higher than 4,000#
http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21529

 

[Scott F]

Personally, I think that 1" tubular webbing slides better through a carabineer than even amsteel does, and it packs (folds) more easily than most ropes that I've used. This makes it easy to flip over your head or tuck into your belt if it is a fixed bridge. I am probably still going to use amsteel on my latest saddle, (simply because I bought some) but I may swap it for webbing in the future. I have no experience with rope as a bridge.

I can say this much, knowing what I know now about amsteel vs webbing as a bridge, I wouldn't have bought the amsteel in the first place. The only advantage for me using amsteel is that my current bridge is adjustable. After 2 hunts if I don't adjust it at all, it will become a fixed bridge, perhaps a fixed webbing bridge....

Is your question solely about using it on a Kestrel? If so, I'm out of the conversation...

 

[justsomedude]

The only thing Kestrele specific is the loops we are tying into. I know that's OK,

Any time I deviate from what a smart manufacturer did (NewTribe) or what smart climber would do, I want pros and cons,

NewTribe used a carabiner on the bridge just as a convenience. They used a heavy auto locker because they don't trust the user. I don't need those. They used heavy rope because it is strong and won't ever wear out. They don't have to trust the user to keep an eye on it and change out the rope if it shows wear.

So the only reason I have 'pause' is that when I used webbing on my SitDrag and OneHair, I still had a connection to the tether directly to my backup harness. And I was connected to my harness for climbing up and rappel down. I was only using the webbing while hunting and it was backed up. This is different so I am just thinking it through.

And it is SO light and compact...that can't be right

And no...I'm not worried about cutting my webbing with a broadhead

 

[lpv77]

Pics? I have 900 feet of camo tubular webbing.

 

[justsomedude]

I’ve got an old thread
http://saddlehunter.com/community/index.php?threads/how-to-tie-on-a-bridge.2405/

 

[DaveT1963]

I do it all the time and made a video of time it on saddle

 

[kyler1945]

I use tubular webbing or slings i have laying around with every saddle I've built to test them out. a couple still have webbing bridges. I see no safety issue other than not having a sheath for protection like climbing rope.

Only downside I can think of is more time spent undoing knots because they jam up pretty good.

A bridge is a component where stiffness isn't really an advantage or disadvantage

 

[Stykbow1]

I have to ask guys and please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not being critical, but I'm just very curious about this subject. It seems a lot of guys are extremely concerned about weight, almost like ultralight backpackers or mountain climbers, so is shaving 8 ounces really that important? I can understand trying different things to remove metal or simplify a connection but some of the weight reductions seem really minimal, to me anyway. Unless of course you are hiking miles to your hunting location or climbing mountainous terrain during your hike into your stand location.

As to the getting second opinions or feedback on something you are not 100% sure of JSD, in my book that is not only smart but good common sense. I'm not a big experimenter when it comes to my Evolution or Kestrel the only thing I did was swap out the prussic knot on the tree rope and lineman's belt for Ropeman 1's. I know radical right, I'm a true visionary!

Roger,

 

[DaveT1963]

I think for most of us the real reason was to eliminate potential noise source not just for weight savings.

 

[kyler1945]

I also think that its "testing the electric fence" so to say. Pushing the envelope, and trying different things lead to innovation.

I'm not saying that in five years, every commercial saddle option is going to come stock with a webbing bridge. But if they did, you could point to the folks who were trying it in the beginning to see if it worked, worked better, offered some advantage, etc. as the reason the snowball headed down hill.

For example, I offered some advice in the 2017 Kestrel thread to new tribe. I told them they should look into a waist buckle with a load rating D-ring attachment. On my homemade sling I use this. I take a short sling and loop into each leg loop, and It gives me a built in second tie in point should my bridge or bridge loops fail. It doesn't weigh any more than what they offer, or cost any more than what they offer. Why didn't they think of it? Because there's a handful of minds working on it there. There are thousands out there thinking about it, that don't have the opportunity to give input. Maybe it isn't that big of an advantage because a lot of people don't feel like they should back up a commercially available saddle. But I can promise you this. If they had used it, people would be tying the tail end of their tether to that buckle without thinking twice.

Mostly, I think some of us have too much time on our hands and need to focus on killin' deers!!! Guilty as charged!

 

[justsomedude]

Roger,

Thinking like Ultralight backpackers is EXACTLY what we should be doing. Portability and Mobility is the whole point of the Tree Saddle. Many of us here have put rigs together only to realize we are still carrying 30+#...that's silly.

Eliminating 8 ounces for something that doesn't decrease safety AND increases comfort and packs better is pretty great. Ounces make pounds....grams make ounces....

I wouldn't have thought about webbing bridge if the rope knots weren't getting in my way. Also, hiking with a lighter bridge is a big deal. Flat webbing stays closer to your body. I would bet I will have less snags when climbing TreeBolts and sticks as well.

In this specific case, the Predator Rope is stronger (6,000#?) to the Webbing's 4,000#. I wouldn't call that a tradeoff.
I will keep an eye on the wear of the webbing against the Kestrel loops but I'll be surprised if I see any.

 

[DaveH]

Or, if you wanted to maintain the 6000# rating, you could use 2" webbing. But the knot size may again be an issue.

For me, the biggest weight savings would be realized if I would just push away from the dinner table a little earlier.

 

[justsomedude]

Or, if you wanted to maintain the 6000# rating, you could use 2" webbing. But the knot size may again be an issue.

For me, the biggest weight savings would be realized if I would just push away from the dinner table a little earlier.

YEP!
I'd feel more guilty about that, but the knots are hitting my ribs. I think having shorter knots with the webbing will be a major difference. Haven't gotten to hang in it yet.

 

[Stykbow1]

I think for most of us the real reason was to eliminate potential noise source not just for weight savings.

Yes, Dave, I know a while back there were lots of discussions on the forum about removing as much metal from the Evolution as possible to reduce noise. I can't argue that point webbing is much quieter than steel especially when something bangs into it. I haven't had much trouble with that type of noise myself but I can understand anyone trying to quiet their rig as much as possible.

Thanks,

Roger

 

[Stykbow1]

Roger,

Thinking like Ultralight backpackers is EXACTLY what we should be doing. Portability and Mobility is the whole point of the Tree Saddle. Many of us here have put rigs together only to realize we are still carrying 30+#...that's silly.

Eliminating 8 ounces for something that doesn't decrease safety AND increases comfort and packs better is pretty great. Ounces make pounds....grams make ounces....

I wouldn't have thought about webbing bridge if the rope knots weren't getting in my way. Also, hiking with a lighter bridge is a big deal. Flat webbing stays closer to your body. I would bet I will have less snags when climbing TreeBolts and sticks as well.

In this specific case, the Predator Rope is stronger (6,000#?) to the Webbing's 4,000#. I wouldn't call that a tradeoff.
I will keep an eye on the wear of the webbing against the Kestrel loops but I'll be surprised if I see any.

JSD I realize that is one of the advantages of a saddle it's lightweight, portability, and versatility. For myself and most of my hunting situations removing eight ounces is not a game changer. If I was hiking miles to my hunting location or mountainous terrain I would definitely consider lightening the load. Yes in an apples to apples situation if you can go lighter why not, especially if it doesn't reduce comfort or safety. For me coming from rigs where the stand alone weighed 22 lbs, my Kestrel is already ultralight stock from New Tribe. I hunt from mostly preset stand locations and only carry my bow, pack, and saddle in to hunt.

If webbing works better and you feel it is less likely to snag and keeps you within your comfort range for safety I say go for it. Again everyone has to do what works best for them and their hunting situations. I'm not against going lighter or shaving weight just wondering why for some it seems like almost an obsession to make something that is light even lighter. I was just curious if it was because of the style of hunting, where they were hunting, or just a philosophy like the backpackers and mountaineers.

For me ease of use, extra comfort, or increased safety are my wheelhouse and I look to increase those if I can and where I can. For example, I'm looking to try some new carabiners and I would pick weight as my least important factor in deciding which one I'd pick. I would gladly sacrifice a couple of ounces for an easier functioning carabiner that had a higher KN rating but that's just me. I think the fact that I look at how much lighter my equipment has gotten in such a short time period of time and we are talking pounds not ounces I am pretty satisfied with the current weight savings of my gear.

Again I am not saying you shouldn't try and reduce weight or shave ounces by all means if that is something that is important to you then I say go for it. What I was more interested in was the reasoning behind it and if it was due to the style of hunting or just the search to make it as light as possible while still keeping it safe and comfortable.

Thanks,

Roger

 

[Stykbow1]

Or, if you wanted to maintain the 6000# rating, you could use 2" webbing. But the knot size may again be an issue.

For me, the biggest weight savings would be realized if I would just push away from the dinner table a little earlier.

Amen Dave that would be my biggest weight savings as well! I just have a hard time understanding if God didn't want us to eat the food why did he make it taste so good? You know like the diet stuff that tastes awful and you don't want to eat.... Just saying....

Thanks,

Roger

 

[Stykbow1]

I also think that its "testing the electric fence" so to say. Pushing the envelope, and trying different things lead to innovation.

I'm not saying that in five years, every commercial saddle option is going to come stock with a webbing bridge. But if they did, you could point to the folks who were trying it in the beginning to see if it worked, worked better, offered some advantage, etc. as the reason the snowball headed down hill.

For example, I offered some advice in the 2017 Kestrel thread to new tribe. I told them they should look into a waist buckle with a load rating D-ring attachment. On my homemade sling I use this. I take a short sling and loop into each leg loop, and It gives me a built in second tie in point should my bridge or bridge loops fail. It doesn't weigh any more than what they offer, or cost any more than what they offer. Why didn't they think of it? Because there's a handful of minds working on it there. There are thousands out there thinking about it, that don't have the opportunity to give input. Maybe it isn't that big of an advantage because a lot of people don't feel like they should back up a commercially available saddle. But I can promise you this. If they had used it, people would be tying the tail end of their tether to that buckle without thinking twice.

Mostly, I think some of us have too much time on our hands and need to focus on killin' deers!!! Guilty as charged!

Kyler, I can't ever argue with redundancy when it comes to climbing or hunting off the ground! You said you had a thread on this do you have any pictures?

When I talk to most new Kestrel user or those interested in getting one they pretty much always have the same two questions, how safe are they and are they comfortable. So if I can show them your system that might even make them feel better.

Guilty as charged as well!

Thanks,

Roger

 

[justsomedude]

Roger,

Part of my weight/size reduction obsession comes from hunts where I might not end up using my saddle and hunt from the ground instead. I tried that in the past, and I got mad because my pack was crammed with my Evo rig and I was crawling up the side of a wet slate hill in the dark.

Those 8oz you mentioned were JUST from the bridge. There are lot of 24kn rated locking carabiners now that are less than 45 grams. That's half (or less) than the weight of those Fusion Carabiners. I usually have about 6 carabiners. If each one is 1.5-2oz lighter.... And do we need 11mm rope on our Linesman's belt? Nope. Do we need a big 3.2oz biner on the linesman's belt? nope...

The bridge biner is just a convenience and even then is only used when putting on or taking off the saddle. It doesn't need to be easy to operate for that (if you keep it at all). I do use a large biner for my tether but that might change too.

I am an ergonomics nerd. If something is clunky or difficult to use, I won't use it just to save weight. I am also a safety nerd...I won't go light if it isn't safe.

 

[Erniepower]

I have used a black diamond runner as a fixed bridge on my GW forever. The only reason I don't use them on my kestrel or evo, is I wanted the option of adjusting the bridge for rapelling. If those saddles came with an extra loop like @kyler1945 suggested, then I wouldn't need an adjustable bridge and I'd be back to the runners.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[justsomedude]

Ernie,

If I SRT, I’ll just girth one side of a shorter Sling and clip the other end for a temporary shorter bridge.
For Rappel, I don’t need a shorter bridge