Full Redundant Backup for Entire Saddle - 0.8 lbs.

[dlist777]

I'm new so don't blast me too hard here...

I'm a hangon guy and I dont love the lack of a backup for safety that's part of saddle hunting. But whenever I read about safety backups here, it's always a backup for one component but there are still points where we're reliant on a single point of failure (the tether, the prussik on the tether, the harness, the bridge, etc etc).

So, I was trying to come up with a way to backup the whole system without costing too much weight.

I found this minimalist rated climbing harness. https://www.backcountrygear.com/loopo-lite-edr4l86935.html

I would wear this under whatever saddle that I am wearing and hook it up to a 2nd tether. The 2nd tether would be under the saddle tether with just a little extra slack so it doesn't hinder movement around the tree (more than the saddle tether does in any case). I would put the tag end through the loop 2x so that the 2nd tether doesn't slip since it won't be under load most of the time. I would wear the minimalist harness and caribeaner....its not noticeable. The only extra bulk is the 2nd tether. You could even go with the nutterbuster 7oz tether to further reduce bulk.

In theory if any component of the saddle failed this would back it up. This additional safety would only apply to hunting time, climbing and descending would still be done normally. I guess you could use the 2nd tether while ascending and descending in addition to your LB, but it would likely be too cumbersome. I haven't tried that yet.

I would attach this after putting my saddle tether on but before I remove my LB. I know most of you guys are going to say it's unnecessary to back up the equipment, but thought i would throw this out there. Maybe guys who are using just a sit and drag might consider adding this as well...

See pics. Thats the JX-3 saddle.

 

[kyler1945]

I have the same harness when I was in a sit drag. Mighty hard to take myself seriously wearing that lingerie....

Having said that - I’m cool with redundancy. I think about how to do it effectively on the daily. That’s not too big of a hassle

 

[dlist777]

I have the same harness when I was in a sit drag. Mighty hard to take myself seriously wearing that lingerie....

Having said that - I’m cool with redundancy. I think about how to do it effectively on the daily. That’s not too big of a hassle

Lol. Put some cammo wrap around it.

 

[fbwguy]

Very interesting, I can see how it would instill confidence and be safe without weight. But @kyler1945 has a valid point about lingerie! My wife would be ticked off that I stole that from her panty drawer!!! Oh, did I say... I’m a simple sitdrag guy?

 

[skyjacker]

Wear it under your camo?

 

[kyler1945]

@redsquirrel losing team in deer contest have to parade around in these for the annual ‘men of saddle hunter’ calendar?

 

[boyne bowhunter]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, wants to see that!

 

[beenhunting]

I would just use a second tether connected to the waist belt of my saddle. My saddle has a climbing rated cobra buckle, and is not sewn so no stitches to possibly fail. That’s my suggestion for a backup.

 

[sdonx]

Can a tether fail?
No way.
IMO- Thats why the tag end of tether clipped to the cobra belt is more than adaquet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kyler1945]

Can a tether fail?
No way.
IMO- Thats why the tag end of tether clipped to the cobra belt is more than adaquet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brother I hope you're right for a long long time...

 

[sojourner]

I believe I am in the minority that is uncomfortable without a backup. Also, I believe I am in the minority as I am not in the implicit race towards a zero weight system frequently found on this group. Nothing against either position, I am customizing my saddle hunting for myself.

I always have a rock climbing harness, rch, on when using a saddle. I add lineman’s belt loops on it too. With that, I see no need for a commercial saddle for me. Exception being Guidos web for comfort. Sit drag, fleece and if I get off my butt, a Wraptor soon.

I have two ropes that act as either lb or tether. I use a distel hitch instead of a mechanical ascender, e.g., ropeman. When I have the tether where I want it (lb still on), I tie an alpine butterfly knot on my tether rope below the distel and close to my belay loop on rch. Then I clip in with a biner that connects the alpine butterfly loop and my belay loop. That is my primary backup. Then I take off my lb.

Some times, if I am feeling a little sketchy/nervous, I use the second rope (previously my lb that I took off) like a tether, attach to tree around waist level and hook into the belay loop too. I believe this second safety is overkill, but I do this sometimes just to feel better about my safety, enjoy the hunt and not worry. Plus I already carry the second rope to get around limbs, might as well use it.

Anyhow, I am in the minority in this.

I use misty mountain gym dandy harness for the most part. I also have a black diamond couloir harness (similar to what you have), but don’t use it as I find the gym dandy harness easier to put on and use.

Whatever you choose, an informed choice is always good.

 

[BCHunter]

I believe I am in the minority that is uncomfortable without a backup. Also, I believe I am in the minority as I am not in the implicit race towards a zero weight system frequently found on this group. Nothing against either position, I am customizing my saddle hunting for myself.

I always have a rock climbing harness, rch, on when using a saddle. I add lineman’s belt loops on it too. With that, I see no need for a commercial saddle for me. Exception being Guidos web for comfort. Sit drag, fleece and if I get off my butt, a Wraptor soon.

Since you use a sit drag or fleece, you would need to use 2 rock climbing harnesses to get to the redundancy that he is suggesting.

I'm a hangon guy and I dont love the lack of a backup for safety that's part of saddle hunting. But whenever I read about safety backups here, it's always a backup for one component but there are still points where we're reliant on a single point of failure (the tether, the prussik on the tether, the harness, the bridge, etc etc).

So, I was trying to come up with a way to backup the whole system without costing too much weight.

In theory if any component of the saddle failed this would back it up. This additional safety would only apply to hunting time, climbing and descending would still be done normally. I guess you could use the 2nd tether while ascending and descending in addition to your LB, but it would likely be too cumbersome. I haven't tried that yet.

I would attach this after putting my saddle tether on but before I remove my LB. I know most of you guys are going to say it's unnecessary to back up the equipment, but thought i would throw this out there. Maybe guys who are using just a sit and drag might consider adding this as well...

Do rock climbers wear 2 harnesses? I have no problem with somebody backing up to feel safer, but did you have two harnesses on when you were sitting in a hang on? A tree stand isn't rated for 5,000lbs like climbing ropes/harnesses, so it isn't really keeping you safe. Plus you aren't strapped to it, so it doesn't help you if you fall out. Also, climbing the tree is the most dangerous part of the whole situation, but if you make it too hard to climb, nobody will use the system after a while. This makes it more dangerous.

I think tying the tail end of your tether to your saddle is a great idea. They are tested to climbing standards, so as long as you inspect it for wear, you are good to go.

Now for the sit draggers, I think they are nuts if they don't use a RCH, even if they do sew in a waist belt.

 

[dlist777]

Since you use a sit drag or fleece, you would need to use 2 rock climbing harnesses to get to the redundancy that he is suggesting.

Do rock climbers wear 2 harnesses? I have no problem with somebody backing up to feel safer, but did you have two harnesses on when you were sitting in a hang on?

No, but I was standing on a stand. It had to fail and then my harness had to fail for me to fall.

 

[BCHunter]

No, but I was standing on a stand. It had to fail and then my harness had to fail for me to fall.

Thats the thing, they aren't life support weight rated, and you aren't strapped to them. So they cant be considered as part of your safety system. They are just a thing you are sitting on.

Like I said, I have no problem with people backing things up. I just don't want people to think we need double redundancy as compared to single with tree stands.

 

[kyler1945]

Thats the thing, they aren't life support weight rated, and you aren't strapped to them. So they cant be considered as part of your safety system. They are just a thing you are sitting on.

Like I said, I have no problem with people backing things up. I just don't want people to think we need double redundancy as compared to single with tree stands.

This.

I am consistently surprised when folks look into saddles and think there’s added inherent safety risks. I was the exact opposite. I dug into saddle hunting, which inevitably led me to ropes/climbing gear and all the safety stuff. It brought into focus the wide range of inadequacy in tree stand installation and use.

A big part of that is our caveman intuitions - ‘metal - solid so strong. Rope - soft so weak’ and ‘me no make mistake’(user error). If you can overcome those intuitions, and think through the stuff, they become pretty apparent.

 

[dlist777]

This.

I am consistently surprised when folks look into saddles and think there’s added inherent safety risks. I was the exact opposite. I dug into saddle hunting, which inevitably led me to ropes/climbing gear and all the safety stuff. It brought into focus the wide range of inadequacy in tree stand installation and use.

A big part of that is our caveman intuitions - ‘metal - solid so strong. Rope - soft so weak’ and ‘me no make mistake’(user error). If you can overcome those intuitions, and think through the stuff, they become pretty apparent.

If you were standing on a hang on stand with a saddle hooked up, wouldn't you be safer than if you were hanging from a saddle? Two things have to fail for you to fall instead of 1.

 

[dlist777]

Thats the thing, they aren't life support weight rated, and you aren't strapped to them. So they cant be considered as part of your safety system. They are just a thing you are sitting on.

Like I said, I have no problem with people backing things up. I just don't want people to think we need double redundancy as compared to single with tree stands.

I had a feeling this thread was going to go this way.....

I didn't intend to say saddles are less safe than hangons. I can't really say. I was just saying I don't like relying on one system. With a hang on, 2 things have to fail for you to fall instead of 1.

I look at it this way:

Imagine yourself leaning in your harness. If any part fails you fall. So, I’ll just speak to my set up with the JX-3. Any of the following components could fail

• Tether itself.
• Prussik on tether
• Carabiner connecting tether to bridge – here it could be mechanical failure or user error, I fail to connect it properly.
• Bridge
• Carabiner connecting bridge to saddle – here it could be mechanical failure or user error, I fail to connect it properly.
• The connection points between saddle and bridge.
• The saddle itself. Again, mechanical or user error. I fail to connect leg loops or belt and lean over.

Any one of these fail, you’re falling. I agree the odds of any one of them failing is extremely remote. Let’s just say its 1 in a thousand. That’s really low. It’s very safe.

By adding a second system, you are installing another 1 in a thousand system. Both have to fail for you to fall. The odds of both failing are (mathematically) 1 in million.

So, you’ve increased your safety from 1 in a thousand to 1 in a million by giving up 0.8 lbs. It’s actually a very small increase in safety because you’re starting from such a safe starting point. But, it is an actual increase in safety. For me, I’m going to do it. I appreciate that most wont.

 

[BCHunter]

If you were standing on a hang on stand with a saddle hooked up, wouldn't you be safer than if you were hanging from a saddle? Two things have to fail for you to fall instead of 1.

Yes, but you would be 100 times more safe with 2 harnesses and two tethers, which is what you were saying in the original post. You are comparing a 500-900lb break rating to a 5,000lb harness. Apples and oranges.

 

[kyler1945]

If you were standing on a hang on stand with a saddle hooked up, wouldn't you be safer than if you were hanging from a saddle? Two things have to fail for you to fall instead of 1.

You’re operating under the assumption that when your saddle fails, you’ll just be standing still, and nothing bad will have been happening or about to be happening that would take you off the edge of the stand or create a force that would break the stand.

 

[dlist777]

Yes, but you would be 100 times more safe with 2 harnesses and two tethers, which is what you were saying in the original post. You are comparing a 500-900lb break rating to a 5,000lb harness. Apples and oranges.

No, I wasn't saying this. Or I didn't intend to.