• The SH Membership has gone live. Only SH Members have access to post in the classifieds. All members can view the classifieds. Starting in 2020 only SH Members will be admitted to the annual hunting contest. Current members will need to follow these steps to upgrade: 1. Click on your username 2. Click on Account upgrades 3. Choose SH Member and purchase.
  • We've been working hard the past few weeks to come up with some big changes to our vendor policies to meet the changing needs of our community. Please see the new vendor rules here: Vendor Access Area Rules

Full Redundant Backup for Entire Saddle - 0.8 lbs.

dlist777 said:
I had a feeling this thread was going to go this way.....

I didn't intend to say saddles are less safe than hangons. I can't really say. I was just saying I don't like relying on one system. With a hang on, 2 things have to fail for you to fall instead of 1.

I look at it this way:

Imagine yourself leaning in your harness. If any part fails you fall. So, I’ll just speak to my set up with the JX-3. Any of the following components could fail
  • Tether itself.
  • Prussik on tether
  • Carabiner connecting tether to bridge – here it could be mechanical failure or user error, I fail to connect it properly.
  • Bridge
  • Carabiner connecting bridge to saddle – here it could be mechanical failure or user error, I fail to connect it properly.
  • The connection points between saddle and bridge.
  • The saddle itself. Again, mechanical or user error. I fail to connect leg loops or belt and lean over.
Any one of these fail, you’re falling. I agree the odds of any one of them failing is extremely remote. Let’s just say its 1 in a thousand. That’s really low. It’s very safe.

By adding a second system, you are installing another 1 in a thousand system. Both have to fail for you to fall. The odds of both failing are (mathematically) 1 in million.

So, you’ve increased your safety from 1 in a thousand to 1 in a million by giving up 0.8 lbs. It’s actually a very small increase in safety because you’re starting from such a safe starting point. But, it is an actual increase in safety. For me, I’m going to do it. I appreciate that most wont.
Click to expand...


You’re on the right track in all of this. Except comparing a tree stand to a backup rated harness/tether, as a safety measure. It’s not, because it’s not rated, and because nothing is keeping you on or in it besides yourself. And almost all accidents are user related.

No one is against what you want to do, especially me. Just wanting to speak very clearly about the topic so as not to mislead folks digging into it.
 
kyler1945 said:
You’re on the right track in all of this. Except comparing a tree stand to a backup rated harness/tether, as a safety measure. It’s not, because it’s not rated, and because nothing is keeping you on or in it besides yourself. And almost all accidents are user related.

No one is against what you want to do, especially me. Just wanting to speak very clearly about the topic so as not to mislead folks digging into it.
Click to expand...

It's a second thing that needs to fail. Even if a treestand has a 1 in 4 chance of failing, it's still going to be more safe to use it PLUS a harness than just a harness. I never intended to compare it as a "safety system".
 
dlist777 said:
It's a second thing that needs to fail. Even if a treestand has a 1 in 4 chance of failing, it's still going to be more safe to us it PLUS a harness than just a harness. I never intended to compare it as a "safety system".
Click to expand...

You’ve reached the end of what could be reasonably discussed on an Internet forum. Haha!

Look, you’re taking a perfectly reasonable approach by adding redundancy. I’m all for it. I’m simply cleaning up some of the language. Im trying to avoid someone who isn’t reading carefully sees the thread and doesn’t buy or use a saddle because they think they need a backup system, when compared to tree stand hunting. I know it’s not your intention to compare the two. But what you’re saying can be completely misinterpreted.

All good dude! Keep wearing them sexy white panties!
 
kyler1945 said:
This.

I am consistently surprised when folks look into saddles and think there’s added inherent safety risks. I was the exact opposite. I dug into saddle hunting, which inevitably led me to ropes/climbing gear and all the safety stuff. It brought into focus the wide range of inadequacy in tree stand installation and use.

A big part of that is our caveman intuitions - ‘metal - solid so strong. Rope - soft so weak’ and ‘me no make mistake’(user error). If you can overcome those intuitions, and think through the stuff, they become pretty apparent.
Click to expand...
Totally agree with @kyler1945. @dlist777, dig into the history of rock climbing and specs for the gear itself. The first few climbs with new gear is terrifying, and rightfully so. Seasoned tree hunters are conditioned to the security they've become accustomed to while being surrounded by metal. Before spending a substantial amount of time researching/designing backup systems though, go sit in a few trees with only your primary system for an hour or so. Watch your gear and how each of the components interact with one another on the way up, while at height, and again on the way down. You may just find yourself eventually becoming comfortable hanging from a 6000lb rated thread...
 
BCHunter said:
Since you use a sit drag or fleece, you would need to use 2 rock climbing harnesses to get to the redundancy that he is suggesting.




Do rock climbers wear 2 harnesses? I have no problem with somebody backing up to feel safer, but did you have two harnesses on when you were sitting in a hang on? A tree stand isn't rated for 5,000lbs like climbing ropes/harnesses, so it isn't really keeping you safe. Plus you aren't strapped to it, so it doesn't help you if you fall out. Also, climbing the tree is the most dangerous part of the whole situation, but if you make it too hard to climb, nobody will use the system after a while. This makes it more dangerous.

I think tying the tail end of your tether to your saddle is a great idea. They are tested to climbing standards, so as long as you inspect it for wear, you are good to go.

Now for the sit draggers, I think they are nuts if they don't use a RCH, even if they do sew in a waist belt.
Click to expand...

In my mind, with the sit drag or fleece, which are not rated life support, the backup would be like a safety harness for a tree stand. Not total redundancy, but good for me. And analogous to using a safety harness while in a hang on. I could buy a riggers belt and use that as a third safety, but for me, that is not needed.

I could buy a commercial saddle (for me to only get the benefit of safety above and beyond sit drag). In my calculations, it is not worth it. I would still want to have some sort of redundancy.

Climbing and descending is a different matter and decisions on hanging should not be limited to the most safe decision while climbing/descending. I appreciate this point you made. I am evaluating a DIY Tree Squeeze and the flingin X to improve my safety while ascending/descending.

I think dispassionate and informed decisions are good for the decision maker. In any case, the decision maker will experience the consequences of his/her decisions.
 
kyler1945 said:
This.

I am consistently surprised when folks look into saddles and think there’s added inherent safety risks. I was the exact opposite. I dug into saddle hunting, which inevitably led me to ropes/climbing gear and all the safety stuff. It brought into focus the wide range of inadequacy in tree stand installation and use.

A big part of that is our caveman intuitions - ‘metal - solid so strong. Rope - soft so weak’ and ‘me no make mistake’(user error). If you can overcome those intuitions, and think through the stuff, they become pretty apparent.
Click to expand...

I am not sure I come down on the same side as you and BCHunter on this issue. And that is OK. As long as we are all sharing the facts and what goes into our decision making, it is good. And I think we are doing that.

From least to most redundancy / safety as I see it.

0 sit drag / fleece without safety harness
1 Hang on or climber without safety harness
2 Hang on or climber with safety harness
2 sit drag / fleece with safety harness
2 commercial saddle
3 sit drag / fleece with safety harness and riggers belt
3 commercial saddle with secondary safety harness or riggers belt

But looking at this, maybe we are on the same page and all at level 2 and OP is thinking level 3 with a commercial harness. And if level 3 with commercial saddle makes him comfortable, great. If he is good at level 2, great.

We could start another thread as to why a commercial saddle versus a non-rated DIY saddle with regards to safety, but that may or may not be fruitful.

Glad t have this civil discourse on the forum.
 
sojourner said:
I am not sure I come down on the same side as you and BCHunter on this issue. And that is OK. As long as we are all sharing the facts and what goes into our decision making, it is good. And I think we are doing that.

From least to most redundancy / safety as I see it.

0 sit drag / fleece without safety harness
1 Hang on or climber without safety harness
2 Hang on or climber with safety harness
2 sit drag / fleece with safety harness
2 commercial saddle
3 sit drag / fleece with safety harness and riggers belt
3 commercial saddle with secondary safety harness or riggers belt

But looking at this, maybe we are on the same page and all at level 2 and OP is thinking level 3 with a commercial harness. And if level 3 with commercial saddle makes him comfortable, great. If he is good at level 2, great.

We could start another thread as to why a commercial saddle versus a non-rated DIY saddle with regards to safety, but that may or may not be fruitful.

Glad t have this civil discourse on the forum.
Click to expand...

To be clear: I didnt intend to recommend anything. My lead in on hangons was just intended as background. I just wanted to offer up a way to backup every component of your saddle (rather than piece by piece) by carrying less than 1 additional pound. Whether that is necessary is up to each person.

It seemed like I touched a nerve. I was just trying to be helpful. No offense was intended. I will be in a saddle full time come Sept 1.
 
dlist777 said:
To be clear: I didnt intend to recommend anything. My lead in on hangons was just intended as background. I just wanted to offer up a way to backup every component of your saddle (rather than piece by piece) by carrying less than 1 additional pound. Whether that is necessary is up to each person.

It seemed like I touched a nerve. I was just trying to be helpful. No offense was intended. I will be in a saddle full time come Sept 1.
Click to expand...


Haha no nerves! - you're good man. And no one was disagreeing with the intention of your post - which was a full redundant setup. It makes sense for lots of reasons, and I support it.

Again, just clearing up language that someone who isn't as experienced may interpret very differently than you intended.

Keep on preachin'!
 
dlist777 said:
No, but I was standing on a stand. It had to fail and then my harness had to fail for me to fall.
Click to expand...

So coming from another new saddle hunter (albeit, one that designs safety products and has a little bit of rope rescue education)...

Using your logic, the saddle equivalent to what you're saying isn't the saddle failing. It's more like the platform (or ring of steps, a non safety rated support structure just like the tree stand) failing and your saddle being the equivalent of your harness.

Except when you look at the failure effects of that situation vs. a treestand failing and your harness catching you, I think the saddle wins out. In the saddle situation, your weight is already partially supported by the saddle. In the harness/stand situation, you're having the force of the fall being applied to your lower extremities, and having a greater risk of suspension trauma. And when your platform fails, your saddle takes you to your tree face first, likely into whatever you used to climb up. If your harness catches you, you're facing away from the tree, and have to figure out how to turn around and get down.
 
The only way to be 100% safe is to stay on the ground and hope that you don't trip and injure yourself. The amount of risk you are willing to take is up to you so double up anything you want. I have no problem with the basic saddle, bridge and tether but that's coming for a guy that used to jump out of perfectly good airplanes but we did have reserve chutes.
 
Do what makes you feel more comfortable. You should have a tether and linesman’s belt anyway so you shouldn’t have to add much. If I were to do this with a kestrel/kite/mantis I would a small loop of webbing added to the belt to hook into. Maybe a continuous loop of amsteel or soft shackle would work well there. Then you can think of the saddle and belt as two different devices. A tether or bridge failure is a scary thing to think about. Nothing wrong with redundancy.
 
dlist777 said:
To be clear: I didnt intend to recommend anything. My lead in on hangons was just intended as background. I just wanted to offer up a way to backup every component of your saddle (rather than piece by piece) by carrying less than 1 additional pound. Whether that is necessary is up to each person.

It seemed like I touched a nerve. I was just trying to be helpful. No offense was intended. I will be in a saddle full time come Sept 1.
Click to expand...
Definitely all good, I love these discussions, it gets people thinking. I would much rather someone go overkill till they get comfortable. There's more than a few people on here that have been up a tree 30ft with just climbing Spurs and a modded sit drag. Thanks for the input on the site, keep the good ideas flowing!

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
 
sojourner said:
I am not sure I come down on the same side as you and BCHunter on this issue. And that is OK. As long as we are all sharing the facts and what goes into our decision making, it is good. And I think we are doing that.

From least to most redundancy / safety as I see it.

0 sit drag / fleece without safety harness
1 Hang on or climber without safety harness
2 Hang on or climber with safety harness
2 sit drag / fleece with safety harness
2 commercial saddle
3 sit drag / fleece with safety harness and riggers belt
3 commercial saddle with secondary safety harness or riggers belt

But looking at this, maybe we are on the same page and all at level 2 and OP is thinking level 3 with a commercial harness. And if level 3 with commercial saddle makes him comfortable, great. If he is good at level 2, great.

We could start another thread as to why a commercial saddle versus a non-rated DIY saddle with regards to safety, but that may or may not be fruitful.

Glad t have this civil discourse on the forum.
Click to expand...

I like the weighted breakdown of safety levels @sojourner! We all pretty much pick which level we are comfortable with anyway. That was just a good way to visualize it.
 
sojourner said:
From least to most redundancy / safety as I see it.

0 sit drag / fleece without safety harness
1 Hang on or climber without safety harness
2 Hang on or climber with safety harness
2 sit drag / fleece with safety harness
2 commercial saddle
3 sit drag / fleece with safety harness and riggers belt
3 commercial saddle with secondary safety harness or riggers belt
Click to expand...

Haha, you forgot level 4!
61E2lOnV5GL._SL1000_.jpg
 
One final thought: It's not really the equipment that is the issue (in most cases....some people get pretty aggressive here for weight savings). It's the human factor. The tether isn't going to fail, its the knot that isn't tied right or the guy who let the tether fray and didn't replace it...The purssik isn't tied right or the diameter is wrong for the rope its on....The caribiner isn't actually clipped on in the dark or you didn't lock it or its loaded wrong, etc. etc.

I had a LW stick fail once. It wasn't the stick, I hadn't put the loop fully over the versa button. So, a backup isn't primarily there for equipment failure, it's for the human factor.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top