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Access to Quality Whitetail Habitat

Here in north Alabama back in the 60's the state DNR brought a bunch of Michigan deer into the state. There seems to be a difference in my experience hunting for 25 plus years here. For example: I have killed 2 roughly 3.5 year old 6 points that were vastly different. One was lighter colored fur, the other much darker. THe darker one also had darker antlers and it was much thicker body wise. I couldnt tell you that one was in the lineage of Michigan or Alabama but I have no idea why one was vastly different than the other. I killed them both within 5 miles of the other. Was it genetics? Was it food intake? We dont have large tracts of Ag land there so I assume they had the same diet. I have talked about this with other hunters who have noticed the same thing and alot of people assume the darker colored deer have Michigan genetics. I dont have any answers to this discussion. All I know is that horns dont taste good no matter how you cook them. I just enjoy being in nature enjoying Gods creation. Taking an animal is icing on the cake.

a270b3608d135f75ed4a7b5f67f6b8cd.jpg

Two FL bucks, killed in coastal marsh. Tooth aging both are 4.5, but if I judged on body the right one is 20lbs heavier, bigger head, just overall bigger deer, but smaller rack. I expected his teeth to be more worn and him to be older. Also, the right one had yellow fat on him, (Acorn fat), but not the other. These bucks lived together, should have had similar diets. Beats the hell out of me why they are so different.

Anyways, FL had other deer(I believe Michigan mostly) brought in years ago too, but I’ve read that there really wasn’t enough brought in to change genetics that much and any of those northern genetics would have diminished to zero by now. Who knows...


Spencer
 
P&Y numbers are a reflection of the timing of bow season. Most 125” deer in VA aren’t killed with a bow because bow season doesn’t align with the rut when the old bucks get dumb. There are booners killed in VA every single year somewhere but that doesn’t mean they get reported either


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That is fair. "There are 3 lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Record book numbers are statistics and therefore lies. :)

There are no doubt trophies killed throughout the US that are unreported. There are herds of deer in Alabama that never get tagged, even if they are shot during legal season during legal shooting hours. If anybody wants to say that they out-outlaw Alabama rednecks, them's fightin' words and I'm driving up to defend my state's honor. All we can go off of are the reported deer, unless somebody has a black list of poached or "secret" bucks.

There have been two booners reported in Alabama in the past 10 years. 29 in Virginia (link for ya https://www.boone-crockett.org/big-game-records-live-0.) @Vtbow, y'all have 1 in the book. Tighten up. Stop shooting the 5 pope and young deer and maybe you'll have a booner to contribute. ;)

All I'm trying to illustrate is many people are well-served to give themselves a break and allow themselves some blood-trackin' time. And if you live in a Vermont or Alabama and are serious about making a name as a hunter, move! Or at least get an out-of-state license or find the county that is producing the once-in-a-decade booner (that's a joke. obligatory blurb about sample sizes skewing results.)
 
That is fair. "There are 3 lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Record book numbers are statistics and therefore lies. :)

There are no doubt trophies killed throughout the US that are unreported. There are herds of deer in Alabama that never get tagged, even if they are shot during legal season during legal shooting hours. If anybody wants to say that they out-outlaw Alabama rednecks, them's fightin' words and I'm driving up to defend my state's honor. All we can go off of are the reported deer, unless somebody has a black list of poached or "secret" bucks.

There have been two booners reported in Alabama in the past 10 years. 29 in Virginia (link for ya https://www.boone-crockett.org/big-game-records-live-0.) @Vtbow, y'all have 1 in the book. Tighten up. Stop shooting the 5 pope and young deer and maybe you'll have a booner to contribute. ;)

All I'm trying to illustrate is many people are well-served to give themselves a break and allow themselves some blood-trackin' time. And if you live in a Vermont or Alabama and are serious about making a name as a hunter, move! Or at least get an out-of-state license or find the county that is producing the once-in-a-decade booner (that's a joke. obligatory blurb about sample sizes skewing results.)
Or hunt for food :)
 
a270b3608d135f75ed4a7b5f67f6b8cd.jpg

Two FL bucks, killed in coastal marsh. Tooth aging both are 4.5, but if I judged on body the right one is 20lbs heavier, bigger head, just overall bigger deer, but smaller rack. I expected his teeth to be more worn and him to be older. Also, the right one had yellow fat on him, (Acorn fat), but not the other. These bucks lived together, should have had similar diets. Beats the hell out of me why they are so different.

Anyways, FL had other deer(I believe Michigan mostly) brought in years ago too, but I’ve read that there really wasn’t enough brought in to change genetics that much and any of those northern genetics would have diminished to zero by now. Who knows...


Spencer
Tooth aging is not as accurate as we would like to believe. That said deer just like people are individuals. You’ll see families where siblings are polar opposites in relation to size and weight. Some deer focus more on eating. Some don’t get overly involved in the chase and fight to breed.
All that said I was on a hunt on a wma with antler restrictions. I watched the biologist check a 3.5 year old buck that maybe had a hundred inches of antler. Pretty deer but not huge by any stretch. Next guy checking in had a really nice 2.5 year old deer with around 115” of antler. Huge for a deer that young. Because the horns were bigger than the previous deer he aged him at 3.5. After witnessing that myself I don’t put much faith in a biologist aging deer by teeth wear.
 
Tooth aging is not as accurate as we would like to believe. That said deer just like people are individuals. You’ll see families where siblings are polar opposites in relation to size and weight. Some deer focus more on eating. Some don’t get overly involved in the chase and fight to breed.
All that said I was on a hunt on a wma with antler restrictions. I watched the biologist check a 3.5 year old buck that maybe had a hundred inches of antler. Pretty deer but not huge by any stretch. Next guy checking in had a really nice 2.5 year old deer with around 115” of antler. Huge for a deer that young. Because the horns were bigger than the previous deer he aged him at 3.5. After witnessing that myself I don’t put much faith in a biologist aging deer by teeth wear.

True, I aged them myself, and I know tooth wear isn’t the end all be all, but generally it should be very similar/consistent within certain populations of deer that have the same food sources. So even if the age was wrong, the wear seemed very similar, putting them at the same age still.


Spencer
 
That is fair. "There are 3 lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Record book numbers are statistics and therefore lies. :)

There are no doubt trophies killed throughout the US that are unreported. There are herds of deer in Alabama that never get tagged, even if they are shot during legal season during legal shooting hours. If anybody wants to say that they out-outlaw Alabama rednecks, them's fightin' words and I'm driving up to defend my state's honor. All we can go off of are the reported deer, unless somebody has a black list of poached or "secret" bucks.

There have been two booners reported in Alabama in the past 10 years. 29 in Virginia (link for ya https://www.boone-crockett.org/big-game-records-live-0.) @Vtbow, y'all have 1 in the book. Tighten up. Stop shooting the 5 pope and young deer and maybe you'll have a booner to contribute. ;)

All I'm trying to illustrate is many people are well-served to give themselves a break and allow themselves some blood-trackin' time. And if you live in a Vermont or Alabama and are serious about making a name as a hunter, move! Or at least get an out-of-state license or find the county that is producing the once-in-a-decade booner (that's a joke. obligatory blurb about sample sizes skewing results.)
There's a reason my father goes to Arizona to shoot cous deer every year...but he can afford it....
 
Two FL bucks, killed in coastal marsh. Tooth aging both are 4.5, but if I judged on body the right one is 20lbs heavier, bigger head, just overall bigger deer, but smaller rack. I expected his teeth to be more worn and him to be older. Also, the right one had yellow fat on him, (Acorn fat), but not the other. These bucks lived together, should have had similar diets. Beats the hell out of me why they are so different.

Anyways, FL had other deer(I believe Michigan mostly) brought in years ago too, but I’ve read that there really wasn’t enough brought in to change genetics that much and any of those northern genetics would have diminished to zero by now. Who knows...


Spencer
A few years ago my daughter and I doubled up on opening day of rifle season. She shot hers mid morning and I shot mine last light. Both deer were shot from the same popup in the same location. Based only on antler size I would say they were both 2.5 year old deer. Difference was hers considerably outweighed mine even though mine had a bigger rack (damn near killed me dragging that beast out). The body on her deer was fully a foot longer than mine when hung in the back garage side by side. Those deer lived in the same range, ate the same foods and most likely bachelor grouped together. I guess my point is that deer are as individual as humans.

1597461655258.png
 
A few years ago my daughter and I doubled up on opening day of rifle season. She shot hers mid morning and I shot mine last light. Both deer were shot from the same popup in the same location. Based only on antler size I would say they were both 2.5 year old deer. Difference was hers considerably outweighed mine even though mine had a bigger rack (damn near killed me dragging that beast out). The body on her deer was fully a foot longer than mine when hung in the back garage side by side. Those deer lived in the same range, ate the same foods and most likely bachelor grouped together. I guess my point is that deer are as individual as humans.

View attachment 32286

Yessir, no doubt. I also have heard, I believe it was in the Deer University podcast, that breed date can have a big influence. I don’t believe they discussed body size, but antler production was reduced for quite a while. I can’t remember if it was for the deers entire life or just well into maturity that it’s capacity to put on antler was reduced. So a late bred doe and late drop fawn could be reasoning for your situation. Also, if a deer is born on a drought year with low mast production and scarce food that can hold them back in antler production into maturity as well.

If anyone hasn’t heard of that podcast, it’s enjoyable and informative.


Spencer
 
Would you not agree that without age and nutrition no deer will reach his genetic potential be that a 100” or 300” antlers? Every deer farmer already has age and nutrition so the next thing is genetics.


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Genetic’s and natural selection will likely produce big deer. In a heavy snowfall areas large deer survive the deep snow short small deer die. Large deer survive because of low hunting pressure, or because the hunters can’t find them or because they have the best habitat.
Hunters and other predators are involved in natural selection. In our area hunting pressure is high from humans and coyotes.

Coyotes eat fawns. Only the deer with the best habitat and cover survive. Food is not a problem in Ontario until the snow flies. Snow is a problem sometimes in the snow belt where I live. The small deer die. In our area deer that survive put energy in body size. Antlers are just not naturally selected for. So antler size is random and age related and likely mineral related

Human activity is a problem. In my 30 acres of woods the neighbours ATVs are active only one hundred yards away.

Once the first week of November comes the 3 or 5 deer on my farm leave. Why? No cover, no brush, no leaves on the trees.
I know where they go but I don’t have access to it all.

Public land is nearby but pressured.
Horses, hikers, hunters, pheasant hunters with dogs, snowmobiles etc.
Just my observations. Oh and farmers produce a lot of food for critters. No till and minimal tillage are great for deer. Food is not a problem in our area except in winter. Predator pressure is. Lack of winter cover is. Deer will travel 30 miles in late November to the best cover. In January I often see 50 deer in the evening in those areas.

In cottage country and north central Ontario wolf hunting is limited. I have spoke to locals in Halliburton and the only place you see deer and turkeys are near cottages. Safety from wolves. The eco nuts have limited the hunting of the so called grey wolf hybrid thinking they are special. Really just a coyote / wolf hybrid that lives to eat.
I love the first post. @Nutterbuster





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I think by now most people who are paying attention know that I'm a Bob Sheppard fanboy. I have his "list" of things that are important to hunting success taped to my fridge. Number 1 on that list is "access to quaity whitetail habitat." I think we all know it matters. We all like to point out that, "anybody can kill those farm deer." I've heard the "if I had the money" and, "if i lived in xyz state" excuses. Heck, I've made them myself.

Sheppard is a cardiovascular specialist. He hunts where he wants because he has time and money. Those two things definitely make most things in life easier. Initially, I kinda disregarded his number 1 list item because I thought it was something I couldn't do at 20 with no trust fund. I've kinda changed my view on this over the past several years.

I kinda have been hesitant to write this post because I don't have a whole lotta "tricks" up my sleeve, and I've seen the results of cats and improperly tied bags. But, I have been channeling some negative energy lately because I see a lot of threads about little things like arrow weight, camo types, carabiner shine, etc get a lot of traffic. I figured instead of pooing on those threads it'd be better to give my two cents on what makes the biggest difference on hunting success. I'd rather shoot crappy arrows out of a discount bow while sitting on a bucket in blue jeans, on a prime piece of property, than shoot calculator-built arrows out of a 2021 bow while sitting in my saddle in Sitka gear while hunting poor ground.

(...)

TLDR, good dirt and low human population makes quality whitetail habitat. I've expounded on it because I believe in having a firm grasp of the basic theories of stuff. Knowing WHY something is so has value.

Light pollution maps and aerial photography helps to see a big picture, but there are tools you can use to really narrow it down. Last year, I put together a spreadsheet with information on each county in Alabama. First, I joined the Pope and Young and the Boone and Crockett foundations, along with the Alabama Whitetail Records membership. This allowed me access to the databases containing info on "trophy" bucks. Ceteris paribus, the more trophy bucks a county has, the more interesting it is, even if you're not interested in trophies. If you have big bucks, you most likely have plenty of other deer surrounding them

(...)

That's my spiel. I'm happy to answer questions about how I try and narrow it down, or hear from others how they separate the wheat from the chaff. Remember, Hemingway once said, “I write one page of masterpiece to ninety-nine pages of sh/t. I try to put the sh/t in the wastebasket.” Don't make the mistake of thinking you can use gadgets and gear to kill deer that don't exist. Put the sh/t in the wastebasket, and go find that one page of masterpiece.

@Nutterbuster - was that a post, or a tome?

Very thoughtful ... and thought-provoking. It’s easy to get all caught up in chasing the latest gear - thanks for focusing us on a more fundamental & important discussion.

Early this year was the first time in many years that I’ve explored public lands that are new to me. I just haven’t been seeing mature deer at my usual old places, and I want to increase my odds of taking mature deer without spending my hard-earned money on obtaining hunting rights on private land.

That leaves two (legal) options:

1. Seek private land hunting permission that I don’t have to lease

2. Seek out better public land hunting locations

I studied the maps after this past season and did more public land “boots on the ground” post-season scouting than I’ve ever done before. I eliminated vast areas of potential through scouting, and discovered some promising new locations with lots of deer sign. In the best areas I found, I bumped large deer, but those areas are tough going in security cover that will be very challenging to approach undetected. All part of the learning process to become better at the craft I suppose.

Dr. Sheppard’s work is a new source of information (to me) and your focus on his first priority of “access to quality Whitetail habitat” certainly gives me pause.

When I’ve read John Eberhart’s body of work, he’s emphasized that he doesn’t pay for access on private land but he does tell us that he puts in a lot of time seeking permission to hunt on private land, and that he loses permission on parcels every year (typically after he takes a trophy buck on the property and the landowners revoke his privileges to reserve the property for family hunts or private lease).

The point is, he does a lot of work replacing permission lost on old parcels with permission to hunt new ones. He even tells us his tactics for seeking permission to hunt private land from landowners he doesn’t know.

So ... how much time have I put in to obtain permission to hunt private land since I’ve started focusing on finding new places? Exactly ZERO. My focus has been public land because it saves the time and effort of knocking on strangers doors as well as the rejection I will face from the majority of landowners who don’t know me. Is that focus on public land hampering my success finding mature deer?

I see big bucks taken locally almost every year, but I don’t see them when & where I hunt. Is that because I’m not that good of a hunter, or because I’m only hunting pressured areas accessible to everyone else?

Am I sub-optimizing the use of my time & resources?

For all the TIME I put in: researching, buying, and trying hunting gear; For all the time I spend doing boots on the ground investigation of public land accessible to everyone else; Might I be better served spending that time obtaining free hunting rights on private land parcels in my area? Places that produce and shelter big bucks from the majority of other hunters in my area?

Would the MONEY I spend each year on the latest gear serve me better if I spent it on obtaining private hunting leases (or making hunting trips to prime big-buck states) instead?

Your OP was a pleasure to read. This is a paradigm-shifting thread. Thank you, Nutterbuster.


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I think by now...

Count shot up stop signs and beer cans too. Drive to the local town. What do you see? Lifted trucks and Summit stickers on the backglass? Bernie stickers, prius cars, and soccer moms?


Don't hate!

 
Really enjoyed your post.
I could not agree with you more.
Good hunting this season
Thank the good Lord we have the freedom to do this, some guys out there keep us safe.
 
Am I sub-optimizing the use of my time & resources?
A lot of guys are, assuming the goal is ultimately to kill deer. If i want to spend time with my family, I'll fire up the grill and fill the ice chest and have them over for a BBQ. If i want to commune with nature, I'll do it when it's not 17° outside. If I want to reflect on life and get away from it all, I'll sit on the river with a beer. If I'm slogging around in hip waders at 3am carrying a loaded gun after getting 4 hours of sleep in my truck, I am there for one reason and one reason only: murder most foul of an unwitting ungulate.

We all have a finite amount of money, time, and most importantly, willpower and mental energy. If you want results, you have to channel those resources into the areas that give you the most leverage towards your goals. Finding a really good hunting spot will pay better dividends than any piece of gear you can buy.
 
I want to thank everybody for contributing to this thread. Lots of good deer talk going on here.

Somebody earlier mentioned the "watercooler method" of getting info about good properties. I think that is a fascinating subject. Simple conversations between unassuming-looking rednecks and ole-timers can have so many little things going on under the surface.

I have found that directly asking active public land deer hunters about public land deer hunting spots is 99% a waste of time. Notice the qualifiers there. A public guy who has a spot worth hunting will not give it up unless you have a high-quality relationship with him. I have many friends who hunt. I have 2 friends that know more than the general WMAs I hunt, and I'm usually pretty coy about just that info with people I don't know. If a person is giving you intel about an area he hunts, ask yourself why. My experience is a loose-lipped hunter usually has nothing to lose or guard.

There are unique situations. I have gleaned highly useful intel from folks like trotliners, squirrel hunters, and waterfowlers. People who spend a lot of time in the woods, bjt don't give a hoot about deer. Squirrel hunters in particular cover a lot of territory, bust a lot of brush, and often are jumping deer they have no interest in whatsoever. Buy them a beer, tell them they have a pretty dog, do whatever you can to get on their good side. It pays to pay attention to all game animals you see, because sometimes a trade is in order. Let an old man in a turkey vest know about the gobbler you hear every spring, and he may feel charitably disposed enough to let you know about the sheds he finds every year...

It's also worth chatting up people who travel rural roads at night. Delivery drivers, shift workers, emergency personnel, etc. My grandfather is a pastor, which doesn't seem like a likely vocation for producing deer intel. But, he pastors 2 separate, very rural churches about 2 hours away from his home, and he makes frequent hoise calls to elderly church members at wee hours due to death and illness. He has seen many big bucks in the headlights.

A lot of times, locals who don't hunt can give better intel than hunters. Chatting up gas station attendents and waitresses can be very informative. Do keep in mind though that in rural areas, hunter traffic may be big money to these folks. Staff is usually more honest than owners. Waitresses are a favorite of mine, but bear in mind that their livelihood very much depends on being able to read people and give them what they want.

In general, I try to be cognizant of not biasing a question. Despite our frequent assumption that most people are unpleasant and unhelpful, the fact of the matter is that most people DO want to help. It's biology. We are social, empathetic creatures. Saying "yes" is more pleasant than saying "no" generally speaking. How many times has hanging up on a telemarketer or brushing off a girl scout troop given you the warm fuzziness? You do it but you don't enjoy it. Being cognizant of this is amazingly helpful in life, and quite relevant to our discussion on social-engineering deer intel out of folks.

There are two parts to this. Part one is making it pleasant to interact with you, so that people want to answer your questions. Part two is not making it obvious what answer you're hoping to hear. You could write a graduate-level course on those two sentences. For here, suffice it to say that strolling up to a counter in a camo shirt and asking, "Do folks shoot a lot of deer up here" will get you one answer, 100% of the time. "Yes, great hunting around here."

I try to not make it obvious I'm from out-of-town or a hunter. I'll usually tell people I'm "hiking" if I'm in an area to scout. Asking about wildlife in a hunting hotspot will usually lead to deer talk. And, if you can get a woman taking about her family and that family hunts, you might be amazed at what she's willing to tell you when it involves bragging on the men in her family. I have on more than one occasion been handed a phone to scroll through with trophy pic after trophy pic of "Cousin Johnny" or "Little Billy."

Let's circle back. Remember how I said "active" hunters wouldn't give up intel? In my mind no person has such great value as a man who has gotten too stiff in his joints to enjoy brush-busting. The Council of Rural Elders that usually hangs out at feed supply stores and restaurants that offer free senior coffee can be the mother load. Some of them may be tale-spinners and BSers, but if you can find a gentleman who hunted before property lines existed and now prefers crappie fishing or sitting in the box blind on his farm, you can learn a lot.

If you for some reason are trying to get intel from active hunters (and sometimes that intel is good. After all, they are actively doing what you are trying to do) I have found the best way to do it is to first find out where they hunt. DO NOT BRING UP THE QUALITY OF THE AREA AT ALL UNTIL YOU HAVE THIS INTEL. Start with just general hunting talk. Most hunters like to talk about hunting. Once you've warmed them up, it's usually easy to find out what properties they hunt. THEN you can start probing to see what they're killing. Usually, if you want to see theirs, it's easier if you show yours. Once I know about where a fella is hunting, I'll bring the talk around to last year's hunting. Pictures on a phone get the ball rolling. "Shot this 8 last year on a burr oak. Shot this doe about 200 yards away on the same ridge." Generally, this will open the flood gates. Once you know where he generally hunts, you can infer that the deer he shows you probably come from that area without triggering the alarms in his head that say "somebody is after my deer!"

If it doesn't, remember almost no man can pass on an opportunity to one-up you or show that you don't know what you're talking about.

"I'm thinking about getting in on a lease. Gun hunters here shoot every spike that walks by. Can't kill nice deer on public."

"Yeah? Killed this guy 2 years ago. 5.5 years old. 120" gross."

"Nice. What corn feeder you shoot him off of?"

"Shot him on xyz wma. You can find them if you know what you're doing." (Preens feathers)

That concludes NutterBuster's Social Engineering and Interrogation Skills 101. Basically, don't lead the witness and keep a suspicious mind behind a friendly face.
 
I want to thank everybody for contributing to this thread. Lots of good deer talk going on here.

Somebody earlier mentioned the "watercooler method" of getting info about good properties. I think that is a fascinating subject. Simple conversations between unassuming-looking rednecks and ole-timers can have so many little things going on under the surface.

I have found that directly asking active public land deer hunters about public land deer hunting spots is 99% a waste of time. Notice the qualifiers there. A public guy who has a spot worth hunting will not give it up unless you have a high-quality relationship with him. I have many friends who hunt. I have 2 friends that know more than the general WMAs I hunt, and I'm usually pretty coy about just that info with people I don't know. If a person is giving you intel about an area he hunts, ask yourself why. My experience is a loose-lipped hunter usually has nothing to lose or guard.

There are unique situations. I have gleaned highly useful intel from folks like trotliners, squirrel hunters, and waterfowlers. People who spend a lot of time in the woods, bjt don't give a hoot about deer. Squirrel hunters in particular cover a lot of territory, bust a lot of brush, and often are jumping deer they have no interest in whatsoever. Buy them a beer, tell them they have a pretty dog, do whatever you can to get on their good side. It pays to pay attention to all game animals you see, because sometimes a trade is in order. Let an old man in a turkey vest know about the gobbler you hear every spring, and he may feel charitably disposed enough to let you know about the sheds he finds every year...

It's also worth chatting up people who travel rural roads at night. Delivery drivers, shift workers, emergency personnel, etc. My grandfather is a pastor, which doesn't seem like a likely vocation for producing deer intel. But, he pastors 2 separate, very rural churches about 2 hours away from his home, and he makes frequent hoise calls to elderly church members at wee hours due to death and illness. He has seen many big bucks in the headlights.

A lot of times, locals who don't hunt can give better intel than hunters. Chatting up gas station attendents and waitresses can be very informative. Do keep in mind though that in rural areas, hunter traffic may be big money to these folks. Staff is usually more honest than owners. Waitresses are a favorite of mine, but bear in mind that their livelihood very much depends on being able to read people and give them what they want.

In general, I try to be cognizant of not biasing a question. Despite our frequent assumption that most people are unpleasant and unhelpful, the fact of the matter is that most people DO want to help. It's biology. We are social, empathetic creatures. Saying "yes" is more pleasant than saying "no" generally speaking. How many times has hanging up on a telemarketer or brushing off a girl scout troop given you the warm fuzziness? You do it but you don't enjoy it. Being cognizant of this is amazingly helpful in life, and quite relevant to our discussion on social-engineering deer intel out of folks.

There are two parts to this. Part one is making it pleasant to interact with you, so that people want to answer your questions. Part two is not making it obvious what answer you're hoping to hear. You could write a graduate-level course on those two sentences. For here, suffice it to say that strolling up to a counter in a camo shirt and asking, "Do folks shoot a lot of deer up here" will get you one answer, 100% of the time. "Yes, great hunting around here."

I try to not make it obvious I'm from out-of-town or a hunter. I'll usually tell people I'm "hiking" if I'm in an area to scout. Asking about wildlife in a hunting hotspot will usually lead to deer talk. And, if you can get a woman taking about her family and that family hunts, you might be amazed at what she's willing to tell you when it involves bragging on the men in her family. I have on more than one occasion been handed a phone to scroll through with trophy pic after trophy pic of "Cousin Johnny" or "Little Billy."

Let's circle back. Remember how I said "active" hunters wouldn't give up intel? In my mind no person has such great value as a man who has gotten too stiff in his joints to enjoy brush-busting. The Council of Rural Elders that usually hangs out at feed supply stores and restaurants that offer free senior coffee can be the mother load. Some of them may be tale-spinners and BSers, but if you can find a gentleman who hunted before property lines existed and now prefers crappie fishing or sitting in the box blind on his farm, you can learn a lot.

If you for some reason are trying to get intel from active hunters (and sometimes that intel is good. After all, they are actively doing what you are trying to do) I have found the best way to do it is to first find out where they hunt. DO NOT BRING UP THE QUALITY OF THE AREA AT ALL UNTIL YOU HAVE THIS INTEL. Start with just general hunting talk. Most hunters like to talk about hunting. Once you've warmed them up, it's usually easy to find out what properties they hunt. THEN you can start probing to see what they're killing. Usually, if you want to see theirs, it's easier if you show yours. Once I know about where a fella is hunting, I'll bring the talk around to last year's hunting. Pictures on a phone get the ball rolling. "Shot this 8 last year on a burr oak. Shot this doe about 200 yards away on the same ridge." Generally, this will open the flood gates. Once you know where he generally hunts, you can infer that the deer he shows you probably come from that area without triggering the alarms in his head that say "somebody is after my deer!"

If it doesn't, remember almost no man can pass on an opportunity to one-up you or show that you don't know what you're talking about.

"I'm thinking about getting in on a lease. Gun hunters here shoot every spike that walks by. Can't kill nice deer on public."

"Yeah? Killed this guy 2 years ago. 5.5 years old. 120" gross."

"Nice. What corn feeder you shoot him off of?"

"Shot him on xyz wma. You can find them if you know what you're doing." (Preens feathers)

That concludes NutterBuster's Social Engineering and Interrogation Skills 101. Basically, don't lead the witness and keep a suspicious mind behind a friendly face.
Many of the well known public land hunters have said on podcasts they will just sit at a popular breakfast areas with a news paper and tune their ears to what kind of talk is going amongst the local as it pertains to hunting. I think that is great but you have to be able to decipher which is true talk and which is the common exaggerated story. But I definitely agree with you that good social skills can lead to many great opportunities. I am going to make a point to talk a little more to the hunters I run into on the public.
 
I'm always one to throw out the, "You must've saw the big guy too." to guys on public land I run into while hunting and on ground I don't hunt much. It's worked twice but definitely worth it. I saw trail cam photos on a guy's phone last year from a nice buck on ground I probably wouldn't have considered hunting again.
 
I think that is great but you have to be able to decipher which is true talk and which is the common exaggerated story.
Exactly. People lie. To you, to their wife, to themselves, good intentions, bad intentions, to make conversation, to meet what they think are your expectations, or just because they can. Knowing that they do lie and some of the reasons they will lie lets you choose your angle and pick apart whatever they decide to tell you.

Hunters lie because telling you the truth may help you at the perceived cost of hurting themselves. If a hunter tells you straight info, it's because either he doesn't know what he's doing, he really likes you,, or he doesn't see you as a risk. There are a few hunters who have so many spots and have played the game for so long, and they're just open people, that they will actually give you good info. The late Glenn Solomon stands out as an example of this. But those types of folks are rarer than thick steaks cooked over candlelight.

People who make money on hunters will lie because they want you to come back and spend money.

Old men will lie because it enhances the pleasure they get out of conversing with you. Either they in some way start believing their romanticized version of true events, or they just know it makes the tale more interesting, or they like yanking your chain. Or all 3. Hard to tell sometimes.

Almost anyone will lie to you in order to tell you what they think you want to hear. The pants don't make you look fat. That's a very pretty baby. Yes, this area is good hunting.
 
My number #1 buck I am currently after was from listening, listen a lot and talk very little, people love an audience so give them one, mention you don’t hunt much due to work or family time being busy, make it seem as your zero threat, then towards the end if I think the show is almost over I mite ask a few pointed questions but only at the end because I have nothing to lose, thats usually when the stuttering starts and fibs begin. I have no stickers on my truck at all, sometimes I park down the road aways and usually on the opposite side, I could write a book on this stuff LOL.
 
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