Access to Quality Whitetail Habitat

[Jwiggins762]

There's also the buck/doe ratio. Why fight and strut your stuff and grow big antlers when you can breed a doe as a spike?

Last year my mindset going into it was kill a buck(s), scouting mindset was look for buck sign and how to hunt them. Im not an experienced hunter whatsoever but I know this year I feel like my odds are better I'm looking for deer sign and food. I have one goal and thats to kill a deer, and I may not get that goal this year, but I'm gonna learn something that will get me closer to that goal. So what I'm hearing from the @Nutterbuster is bama needs to open doe season up early instead of late.....im all for that.

 

[Topdog]

Good stuff guys keep it coming, I am learning and enjoying it!

 

[Jwiggins762]

And if everyone has this same attitude, there will never be a record buck book. Let them go so they can grow!

Yea thats fine if you're hunting over corn. On public im gonna take what I can get, and so far thats been nothing. So when a little baby spike walks out and I can't keep the tree from shaking im gonna try my best to get him down.

 

[Gator]

Yea thats fine if you're hunting over corn. On public im gonna take what I can get, and so far thats been nothing. So when a little baby spike walks out and I can't keep the tree from shaking im gonna try my best to get him down.

And I have no issue with that, except the corn part. You typically won't kill a mature buck over bait either. This conversation started about big bucks and finding the best habitat (which I'm assuming is to hunt better quality bucks). My comment was simply that if everyone is shooting yearling spikes, you won't kill mature "record book" bucks as they typically need to be 4+ years old.

 

[Nutterbuster]

And if everyone has this same attitude, there will never be a record buck book. Let them go so they can grow!

If you have the soil and the genetics, and if you have the acreage to hold deer, I agree with you. But if you and your neighbors who agree with your ideas lease less than a square mile (or several) or if you hunt public, they will not grow. They will get shot OR naturally drift away from their home area as they age and get ran off by their mother to discourage in-breeding. You will almost with certainty never see them again.

Sure, if we could all agree with you, bucks would at least grow to the glass ceiling imposed by genetics and good dirt. But the mask thing tells you everything you need to know about getting people on the same page. Unless a tract of land has enforceable antler restrictions, you are setting yourself up for nothing but disappointment and feelings of resentment letting a buck walk hoping you'll see him again next year. Because somebody like me is most likely going to kill him. Them's the facts.

 

[Vtbow]

View attachment 32239

View attachment 32240

Many looks, all of them sexy.

#2 is my favorite...especially with the stainless wheel gun in the chest harness... You've got this look like, "Hey, do you know where I parked my Camaro? All I can find here is water and that darn thing don float...."

 

[Gator]

If you have the soil and the genetics, and if you have the acreage to hold deer, I agree with you. But if you and your neighbors who agree with your ideas lease less than a square mile (or several) or if you hunt public, they will not grow. They will get shot OR naturally drift away from their home area as they age and get ran off by their mother to discourage in-breeding. You will almost with certainty never see them again.

Sure, if we could all agree with you, bucks would at least grow to the glass ceiling imposed by genetics and good dirt. But the mask thing tells you everything you need to know about getting people on the same page. Unless a tract of land has enforceable antler restrictions, you are setting yourself up for nothing but disappointment and feelings of resentment letting a buck walk hoping you'll see him again next year. Because somebody like me is most likely going to kill him. Them's the facts.

Yep nothing easier to kill than a fawns, next up yearlings, followed closely by 2 year olds, etc. Challenge thyself!

 

[Nutterbuster]

Let me back up a bit.

@Gator isn't wrong. Neither is @Jwiggins762. "When in Rome..."

Where wiggins and I hunt, the numbers say a deer will not hit maturity, and even if he does he will not be an impressive deer. Where @Gator is hunting, the numbers may tell a different story. I guess my thoughts on it are, show me the deer you want to kill. Deer are not magic. If bucks are there, you will see them. Maybe in somebody else's pickup bed or dead on the side of the interstate, or grazing at the back of a cow pasture, or maybe on a trail camera. In my mind, one or two examples of what you're after doesn't cut it. Look at the harvest reports and record books. Look at the license sales. do the math.

I passed a 6 point last year that I would have killed 10 times over again in a different location. I did this because an afternoon of scouting led to me jumping 5 rack bucks in the area, and there were heavily enforced antler restrictions. I shot a much nicer 8 the next day, who met the antler requirements. I did not snub the 8 to wait for the 12, because he was about par for the course on that property.

I guess what I'm trying to say is know what's realistic. Most people that I hunt with in my area would do well to lower their expectations. Can any kid become president? Sure, I reckon. But I'm not holding my breath unless he went to an Ivy League school or won a war, and has family with political connections and some money.

 

[kyler1945]

Let me back up a bit.

@Gator isn't wrong. Neither is @Jwiggins762. "When in Rome..."

Where wiggins and I hunt, the numbers say a deer will not hit maturity, and even if he does he will not be an impressive deer. Where @Gator is hunting, the numbers may tell a different story. I guess my thoughts on it are, show me the deer you want to kill. Deer are not magic. If bucks are there, you will see them. Maybe in somebody else's pickup bed or dead on the side of the interstate, or grazing at the back of a cow pasture, or maybe on a trail camera. In my mind, one or two examples of what you're after doesn't cut it. Look at the harvest reports and record books. Look at the license sales. do the math.

I passed a 6 point last year that I would have killed 10 times over again in a different location. I did this because an afternoon of scouting led to me jumping 5 rack bucks in the area, and there were heavily enforced antler restrictions. I shot a much nicer 8 the next day, who met the antler requirements. I did not snub the 8 to wait for the 12, because he was about par for the course on that property.

I guess what I'm trying to say is know what's realistic. Most people that I hunt with in my area would do well to lower their expectations. Can any kid become president? Sure, I reckon. But I'm not holding my breath unless he went to an Ivy League school or won a war, and has family with political connections and some money.

*they...it’s 2020

 

[Gator]

Let me back up a bit.

@Gator isn't wrong. Neither is @Jwiggins762. "When in Rome..."

Where wiggins and I hunt, the numbers say a deer will not hit maturity, and even if he does he will not be an impressive deer. Where @Gator is hunting, the numbers may tell a different story. I guess my thoughts on it are, show me the deer you want to kill. Deer are not magic. If bucks are there, you will see them. Maybe in somebody else's pickup bed or dead on the side of the interstate, or grazing at the back of a cow pasture, or maybe on a trail camera. In my mind, one or two examples of what you're after doesn't cut it. Look at the harvest reports and record books. Look at the license sales. do the math.

I passed a 6 point last year that I would have killed 10 times over again in a different location. I did this because an afternoon of scouting led to me jumping 5 rack bucks in the area, and there were heavily enforced antler restrictions. I shot a much nicer 8 the next day, who met the antler requirements. I did not snub the 8 to wait for the 12, because he was about par for the course on that property.

I guess what I'm trying to say is know what's realistic. Most people that I hunt with in my area would do well to lower their expectations. Can any kid become president? Sure, I reckon. But I'm not holding my breath unless he went to an Ivy League school or won a war, and has family with political connections and some money.

I hear what you are saying. I hunt public land that has antler restrictions. We get old deer but in the last decade, there's been one killed that was P&Y. Outside of native browse and acorns, there's nothing for them to eat. I also hunt a lease 20 miles down the road surrounded by soybeans, corn, wheat etc. Basically the same self imposed antler restrictions. Way less old bucks around the lease but when they do get some age, they will be 140-160" bucks. Why don't they get age on them? Dog hunters surround us and run our lease all the time (and they don't follow our antler restrictions. See the difference? Both places have their own issues!

 

[Nutterbuster]

Yep nothing easier to kill than a fawns, next up yearlings, followed closely by 2 year olds, etc. Challenge thyself!

With what buck? Alabama has 33 P&Y bucks on record over the past 10 years. 0 in my county. Virginia has 114. Michigan has 382. Wisconsin has 3,311... Not all areas are equal when it comes to the opportunity to encounter a good deer.

I shoot mature bucks every year. I also dump an insane amount of time, energy, and money into it. I promise you most people on here cannot put the effort into it that I do. I see newbies here with jobs and kids looking at Infalt and Eberhart's trophy walls and thinking they can do the same thing with smarts and grit. It's a pipe dream.

 

[Vtbow]

With what buck? Alabama has 33 P&Y bucks on record over the past 10 years. 0 in my county. Virginia has 114. Michigan has 382. Wisconsin has 3,311... Not all areas are equal when it comes to the opportunity to encounter a good deer.

I shoot mature bucks every year. I also dump an insane amount of time, energy, and money into it. I promise you most people on here cannot put the effort into it that I do. I see newbies here with jobs and kids looking at Infalt and Eberhart's trophy walls and thinking they can do the same thing with smarts and grit. It's a pipe dream.

Any idea what the P&Y numbers are in VT? HA!

A lot of people dont get just how much effort it takes in some places. I can walk good buck habitat where 1 of 6 friends shoots a 190lb deer a year for 12 miles( and used to before having kids) in a day and not see a single deer, but TONS of sign. We're talking thousands of mountainous acreage...

And yes, we look at deer size by weight here, not rack size....If I get a 185lb 8pt buck, its an amazing deer....

 

[kyler1945]

With what buck? Alabama has 33 P&Y bucks on record over the past 10 years. 0 in my county. Virginia has 114. Michigan has 382. Wisconsin has 3,311... Not all areas are equal when it comes to the opportunity to encounter a good deer.

I shoot mature bucks every year. I also dump an insane amount of time, energy, and money into it. I promise you most people on here cannot put the effort into it that I do. I see newbies here with jobs and kids looking at Infalt and Eberhart's trophy walls and thinking they can do the same thing with smarts and grit. It's a pipe dream.

fair to say the point of your article, is that if circumstances dictate you only have limited time and resources to devote to finding deer to kill, focusing on ground that has the potential to carry lots of deer/big deer(not necessarily antlers, but not exclusive of antlers), is the most useful starting point?

 

[Nutterbuster]

Any idea what the P&Y numbers are in VT? HA!

A lot of people dont get just how much effort it takes in some places. I can walk good buck habitat where 1 of 6 friends shoots a 190lb deer a year deer for 12 miles( and used to before having kids) in a day and not see a single deer, but TONS of sign. We're talking thousands of mountainous acreage...

And yes, we look at deer size by weight here, not rack size....If I get a 185lb 8pt buck, its an amazing deer....

5. I feel bad for ya.

fair to say the point of your article, is that if circumstances dictate you only have limited time and resources to devote to finding deer to kill, focusing on ground that has the potential to carry lots of deer/big deer(not necessarily antlers, but not exclusive of antlers), is the most useful starting point?

Point is that any hunter, regardless of physical condition, experience, money, or whatever, is smart to ask himself if he's hunting the best area he can. "Best" is relative. If all you can do is hunt the property an hour from your house, walk it and find the low pressure areas and the deer-concentrating features within them. If you can jump on plane and fly, go to Wisconsin. If you can squeeze a weekend or two each year hunting a few hours drive away from the house, spend that time on the areas with good dirt and fewer hunters. Once you have all that figured, then start going down the list and working on the particulars.

 

[BackSpasm]

I can only speak casually on the topic. And I certainly don’t claim that biggest antlers = most attractive mate. It also isn’t the cause of breeding success. But like you said, it’s probably a very good index to use - in that antler size will probably show a strong correlation to a doe’s breeding preference, when compared with other traits or circumstances. Two problems there - that’s a tough study to design, and a doe can go into heat when there isn’t a big boy around to breed with, and she’ll slowly drop her standards as that clock starts ticking louder. I’m open to the idea that big bodied, muscular, aggressive buck with mediocre rack will outbreed smaller bodied buck with big antlers. Especially when the smaller racked butt is kicking everyone’s butt.

I didn’t mean to imply that it’s black and white, or that it’s the single indicator. it’s most definitely more complex than my caveman brain can unravel.

but a startlingly different buck to doe ratio in topdog’s examples Having a strong connection to antler size would be difficult to explain away without sexual selection.

and antlers can only serve two main functions as I see it - actual fitness(fighting) and perceived fitness(as a sexual signal). Both are closely related to breeding success. Both anecdotally, and evidenced by the fact that good antler genes get passed on when other factors are controlled for. Ladies prefer the tall rich guy over the short rich guy all day.

I remain skeptical that any one factor can explain much in the real world, because each ecosystem is so dynamic. It’s also why I can land on “hunt good ground that doesn’t get hunted, and hunt it in a smart way”. It seems to lay the odds most favorably for you.

It sounds like you’ve got some good training on the subject. It would be awesome if you started a separate thread on the genetics side of things. Would be a great contribution to us knuckle draggers!

I really like the things you have to say here. I agree the dynamic nature of the environment is hard to control for!! Thanks for the reply.

Here is a question for you: what about antlers as defensive weapons? Some great work in elk recently has show antlers are retained longer in areas of high wolf density and can be used very effectively to defend against predators. I know coyotes are an issue but it was just yesterday from a biological standpoint that deer had to deal with timber and gray wolves across their range. With the whitetail's social structure, bucks are less likely to benefit from group vigilance like does are (especially when they are hard horned) and may need a different predator defense mechanism (IE antlers). It may be that fitness and fighting are emergent characteristics from the real reason that they needed a defense mechanism when bedded alone on a point in the woods! And although hormones, social factors, etc, etc are involved, it may also not be a coincidence that when they are without antlers they tend to live in groups like does do.

 

[kyler1945]

I really like the things you have to say here. I agree the dynamic nature of the environment is hard to control for!! Thanks for the reply.

Here is a question for you: what about antlers as defensive weapons? Some great work in elk recently has show antlers are retained longer in areas of high wolf density and can be used very effectively to defend against predators. I know coyotes are an issue but it was just yesterday from a biological standpoint that deer had to deal with timber and gray wolves across their range. With the whitetail's social structure, bucks are less likely to benefit from group vigilance like does are (especially when they are hard horned) and may need a different predator defense mechanism (IE antlers). It may be that fitness and fighting are emergent characteristics from the real reason that they needed a defense mechanism when bedded alone on a point in the woods! And although hormones, social factors, etc, etc are involved, it may also not be a coincidence that when they are without antlers they tend to live in groups like does do.

I knew I should have replaced fighting with violence in my original post about antler fitness. I suspect that antlers to fight or for defense or for show are all downstream of the need to be violent in a protein war.

But I don’t think a primary function of defense would work, because of the up and down nature of antler size across the country, and how quickly they change. Within generations, average antler size can change drastically with the right levers pulled and dials turned. Being able to change outcomes that quickly, makes it difficult to believe that without predators, that Defense programming wouldn’t change just as quickly, should the need for it go away.


it very wel could be the case though, and we’d need many more generations to confirm it.

as far as defense from coyotes, I’d say deer would start developing defenses to prevent getting hamstrung. Or does would start developing antlers to ward them off fawns. Or bucks would start becoming more invested in protecting their progeny. I can’t see how effective antlers would be at chasing the ankle biters off. But I suppose it’s the same for elk/wolves.

got the juices flowing though. I really wish I had the resources to study some of this

 

[Nutterbuster]

@kyler1945, have you read Leonard Lee Rue's book? If you want to get into whitetaip biology, it's an excellent primer.

 

[Topdog]

Check out the “busy set of antler’s thread” by Ricky Racer, there must be some sweet dirt where he hunts, I bet the beans there grow off some sort of radioactive soil!

 

[Skeeter]

*they...it’s 2020

It's 2020, "they" may not be appropriate if the individual chooses not to identify that way.

 

[Gator]

With what buck? Alabama has 33 P&Y bucks on record over the past 10 years. 0 in my county. Virginia has 114. Michigan has 382. Wisconsin has 3,311... Not all areas are equal when it comes to the opportunity to encounter a good deer.

I shoot mature bucks every year. I also dump an insane amount of time, energy, and money into it. I promise you most people on here cannot put the effort into it that I do. I see newbies here with jobs and kids looking at Infalt and Eberhart's trophy walls and thinking they can do the same thing with smarts and grit. It's a pipe dream.

P&Y numbers are a reflection of the timing of bow season. Most 125” deer in VA aren’t killed with a bow because bow season doesn’t align with the rut when the old bucks get dumb. There are booners killed in VA every single year somewhere but that doesn’t mean they get reported either


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