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Interesting warning from Mad Rock Safeguard paperwork.

CharlieTN

CharlieTN

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
613
First of all, yes, I actually read through their paperwork. Wasn’t too worried about how to operate it, I was using a Grigri when they first came out and the safeguard is very similar.

Anyway, I found an interesting warning against using a backup friction knot on the braking end.

078ACCC7-277B-45E5-A354-D7026E0F11D7.jpeg

Granted, it’s design, and therefore instructions are for lead climbing and there is a huge difference between what we use it for and catching a climber on a 20’ runout. I had just noticed in several discussions on here where people were using a backup friction knot on the braking end.

What’s the groups thoughts?
 
CharlieTN said:
First of all, yes, I actually read through their paperwork. Wasn’t too worried about how to operate it, I was using a Grigri when they first came out and the safeguard is very similar.

Anyway, I found an interesting warning against using a backup friction knot on the braking end.

View attachment 37956

Granted, it’s design, and therefore instructions are for lead climbing and there is a huge difference between what we use it for and catching a climber on a 20’ runout. I had just noticed in several discussions on here where people were using a backup friction knot on the braking end.

What’s the groups thoughts?
Click to expand...
I read that as well. I think that there is a good chance that what they are concerned about is knots feeding into the device.
 
If you introduce slack in your system with the safeguard, and static rope, and have an autoblock below it, you're asking for trouble.

If you never have slack in your rappel system, and therefore can never introduce more force than what your body weight at the velocity you're descending can create, you'll never have a problem with an autoblock.

The only way you can determine your risks here, is to do math, and understand the device's limitations. And the best path forward to adding context on this, is to consult a certified climbing instructor, and the manufacturer.
 
I know with some parts of a climbing belay system, especially for the dynamic forces from lead climbing, there is an intentional slipping initially to help absorb some of the energy. I wonder if that isn’t the intent here, that if a significant shock load was placed on the system, if it couldn’t brake it. With a friction knot below the device, that could certainly be a possibility on a long runout for a lead climber.
 
CharlieTN said:
I know with some parts of a climbing belay system, especially for the dynamic forces from lead climbing, there is an intentional slipping initially to help absorb some of the energy. I wonder if that isn’t the intent here, that if a significant shock load was placed on the system, if it couldn’t brake it. With a friction knot below the device, that could certainly be a possibility on a long runout for a lead climber.
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(also, any force that could break the safeguard...would probably break you)
 
I read this is that the pivot point would be subject to more force in a fall if the tag end of the rope were locked down. If not locked the rope would slip a bit to reduce the force. An autoblock actually makes this less safe. Another example of Murphy's law applying to good intention modification. OP, thanks for posting this. I didn't know this and I have never seen it posted anywhere else. I have never used an autoblock with any mechanical belay device because I didn't think it was necessary.
 
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We do have to remember that we are doing two things here.

1. Using gear for a purpose it was not designed for. It was designed as a belay device for catching and lowering climbers safely whether lead or top-roping.
2. Using it in combination with rope it was not designed for. As a climbing belay device it was designed for use in conjunction with dynamic ropes that have a bit of a natural stretch built into them. We are using them with rope that is more static in nature, stiff with little stretch, which means more shock-load is transferred directly to the device.

In our favor is the fact that generally we have little to no slack in the system reducing the potential shock load and we are dealing with much shorter distances for the potential drop.

It still pays to be cautious, read the warnings, and take a hard look at what we are doing. At the end of the day, we all would like to go home safely to our families.
 
A
CharlieTN said:
We do have to remember that we are doing two things here.

1. Using gear for a purpose it was not designed for. It was designed as a belay device for catching and lowering climbers safely whether lead or top-roping.
2. Using it in combination with rope it was not designed for. As a climbing belay device it was designed for use in conjunction with dynamic ropes that have a bit of a natural stretch built into them. We are using them with rope that is more static in nature, stiff with little stretch, which means more shock-load is transferred directly to the device.

In our favor is the fact that generally we have little to no slack in the system reducing the potential shock load and we are dealing with much shorter distances for the potential drop.

It still pays to be cautious, read the warnings, and take a hard look at what we are doing. At the end of the day, we all would like to go home safely to our families.
Click to expand...
Agree completely. In general, we are loading these devices much less than they were designed for. I climb SRT and so NEVER have any slack in my climbing line. I consider this to be the MAJOR advantage to climbing SRT. One sticking is cool but the slack in the tether can be severe. One stickers maybe should not ascend while hanging from the Safeguard but transition to it later to descend.
 
bj139 said:
One stickers maybe should not ascend while hanging from the Safeguard but transition to it later to descend.
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Is there a "better" option to connect with? Or is thecreal solution to avoid slack?
 
mattsteg said:
Is there a "better" option to connect with? Or is thecreal solution to avoid slack?
Click to expand...

I will continue to ascend the tree with the safeguard on my rappel rope used as my tether as I go up. For me the key is to move the tether with each step up. That way, the maximum slack I’m introducing is no more than 15”. I also use my lineman’s rope as I ascend as well, using it for stability. Yes it’s a tad bit slower, but honestly not much more so than placing sticks in the first place, and it is a whole lot safer as I now have two ropes to catch me, almost no slack in the system, and an emergency way to rappel down if needed.

Each person has to decided for themselves the acceptable risk. But they need to do so with all the information they can gain. That’s the reason I posted this warning from Mad Rock.
 
bj139 said:
You could just connect with a Prusik to your tether. Avoiding slack is always a good idea.
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I don't know that that avoids the hazard but rather switches to a configuration no one's bothered to warn about.
 
CharlieTN said:
I will continue to ascend the tree with the safeguard on my rappel rope used as my tether as I go up. For me the key is to move the tether with each step up. That way, the maximum slack I’m introducing is no more than 15”. I also use my lineman’s rope as I ascend as well, using it for stability. Yes it’s a tad bit slower, but honestly not much more so than placing sticks in the first place, and it is a whole lot safer as I now have two ropes to catch me, almost no slack in the system, and an emergency way to rappel down if needed.

Each person has to decided for themselves the acceptable risk. But they need to do so with all the information they can gain. That’s the reason I posted this warning from Mad Rock.
Click to expand...

I use my tether/rappel rope the same way. How do you minimize your slack? I feel like I have a bunch of slack before I am stable enough on the bottom steps of helium stick to move tether up. I also use a kong triangle and a Celtic stopper knot but i find the tether falls down causing more slack.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Aeds151 said:
I use my tether/rappel rope the same way. How do you minimize your slack? I feel like I have a bunch of slack before I am stable enough on the bottom steps of helium stick to move tether up. I also use a kong triangle and a Celtic stopper knot but i find the tether falls down causing more slack.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
The only way I can do it is to go up one step then move tether up and repeat.
 
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