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Rappelling setup, figure 8 or ATC, a few questions

tcmetrohunter said:
When I let go of the handle on the Beal Birdie while rappelling it comes to a stop. Same thing would happen if I got knocked out.
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Same with any of these assisted braking devices. "Anti-Panic" is related to a natural response to grab things when startled - the GriGri+ will disengage and stop you then also.

While braking without user input may be a positive (unless it induces suspension trauma worse than whatever fall is prevented in some particular case) "what will happen after I'm knocked out" is NOT a really primary risk that we face. The primary risk is all the stuff that could lead to a high-impact event in the first place.

And the Safeguard and GriGri+ in toprope mode are designed to engage with little to no tension on the rope (vs lifeguard and grigri which will tend to feed some slack before engaging - I don't know the behavior of the birdie in that regard.)
 
tmattson said:
What I have but not tested it out yet. 1 or 2 wraps on the bottom (small) circle of the grovel?
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standard setup, through the big hole adn around the small hole. the finish on the grivel seems to give some extra bite/grip I think and again, it's smaller than a standard figure 8. Not sure how that finish will wear over time.
 
Yep. I was using mine to ascend all weekend and it holds the slack rope before I would pull the tag end to tighten my rope back up. I was hunting out of a preset location so my tether/rappel rope was used to climb.

My point about it stopping the user if they get knocked out is that is the worst case scenario.

Might not be applicable to us since we're not climbing rocks but it was just my way of saying in that oh crap moment when a guy pulls that handle too far and they start falling out of control they can just let go and it will grab the rope and stop them.
 
tcmetrohunter said:
Yep. I was using mine to ascend all weekend and it holds the slack rope before I would pull the tag end to tighten my rope back up. I was hunting out of a preset location so my tether/rappel rope was used to climb.

My point about it stopping the user if they get knocked out is that is the worst case scenario.

Might not be applicable to us since we're not climbing rocks but it was just my way of saying in that oh crap moment when a guy pulls that handle too far and they start falling out of control they can just let go and it will grab the rope and stop them.
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The worst-case scenario isn't getting knocked out, it's death or serious injury.

More realistically in the context of this equipment, is that in that "oh-crap" moment the user death-grips the handle and takes an express ride down, rather than let go. There's not necessarily enough time in a 25 ft fall to think "wait a second, I am doing the wrong thing, I'll let go". You do whatever your natural inclination + conditioned response is.

The real solution is to properly manage your brake strand and NOT get anywhere neat an "out of control" situation. These are NOT "pull to descend" devices.
 
mattsteg said:
The worst-case scenario isn't getting knocked out, it's death or serious injury.

More realistically in the context of this equipment, is that in that "oh-crap" moment the user death-grips the handle and takes an express ride down, rather than let go. There's not necessarily enough time in a 25 ft fall to think "wait a second, I am doing the wrong thing, I'll let go". You do whatever your natural inclination + conditioned response is.

The real solution is to properly manage your brake strand and NOT get anywhere neat an "out of control" situation. These are NOT "pull to descend" devices.
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I learned while scuba diving that panic will kill you. If you are susceptible to panic, then the GriGri+ might be a good idea.
 
bj139 said:
I learned while scuba diving that panic will kill you. If you are susceptible to panic, then the GriGri+ might be a good idea.
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And if you're not...PLAN AHEAD to "let go of handle" as your emergency procedure (and again, keep significant tension on the brake strand. Think of these devices as "ATCs with a brake" - assisted braking devices! - not "pull to descend")
 
mattsteg said:
Will it hold on a slack rope?

Since I have a safeguard I mostly haven't had cause to consider the Birdie. All of these devices are 95% similar.
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The Beal Birdie will feed a slack rope right through. Sitting down in your saddle with a slack rope will lock it right up. There might be at most an inch of feed through. I have used 5 of these devices and I had NO unpleasant experiences with any of them. I used the Lifeguard all last year and it worked fine. After an intial, oh no, moment I realized it would catch and I didn't have any concern after that.
 
I believe we have quickly gotten away from what the reason was for the OP to start the topic.

The Beal Birdie is an option if you're looking for an alternative to a Safeguard or an ATC with prussic to rappel.
 
mattsteg said:
And if you're not...PLAN AHEAD to "let go of handle" as your emergency procedure (and again, keep significant tension on the brake strand. Think of these devices as "ATCs with a brake" - assisted braking devices! - not "pull to descend")
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Many situations call for hands off to make the safety device come into play. Fully automatic weapons come to mind. If you want to grab harder you can be a danger to your self and others. Finger off the trigger to be safe should be ingrained in most shooters.
 
I use 9mm HTP and an ATC with auto block (Distel Hitch) off a lineman's loop. Super simple, locks in quick so I can pause to unhook platform and stick on the descent, but doesn't bind up tight. I carry a figure 8 as a backup in case I get a case of fumble-itis with my ATC.

I might go to a mechanical in the future, but I'm actually more confident in my own knot tying ability than a hunk of metal.
 
JDB said:
I use 9mm HTP and an ATC with auto block (Distel Hitch) off a lineman's loop. Super simple, locks in quick so I can pause to unhook platform and stick on the descent, but doesn't bind up tight. I carry a figure 8 as a backup in case I get a case of fumble-itis with my ATC.

I might go to a mechanical in the future, but I'm actually more confident in my own knot tying ability than a hunk of metal.
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What ATC u using?
 
20201221_073222.jpg

Using my tether for illustration, I use a Figure 8 or an ATC belay device with a simple friction knot brake. I have both.
As far as I am concerned it is panic/bomb proof.
The brake loop is 12" and the loop to the figure 8 is 18".
What like about this setup is no metal to metal noise. I clip into my saddle's bridge. The brake is just below my chin.
 
WaSouthPaw said:
View attachment 41700

Using my tether for illustration, I use a Figure 8 or an ATC belay device with a simple friction knot brake. I have both.
As far as I am concerned it is panic/bomb proof.
The brake loop is 12" and the loop to the figure 8 is 18".
What like about this setup is no metal to metal noise. I clip into my saddle's bridge. The brake is just below my chin.
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I think I’m gonna steal this method. The biggest problem I’ve had is the auto block connected to my linesman rolls me sideways. Looks like the solution!
 
Hunter260 said:
I think I’m gonna steal this method. The biggest problem I’ve had is the auto block connected to my linesman rolls me sideways. Looks like the solution!
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If you attach your figure 8 /ATC to your bridge and auto block on your hip (I use my lineman's loop and a biner) it won't roll you either.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
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WaSouthPaw said:
View attachment 41700

Using my tether for illustration, I use a Figure 8 or an ATC belay device with a simple friction knot brake. I have both.
As far as I am concerned it is panic/bomb proof.
The brake loop is 12" and the loop to the figure 8 is 18".
What like about this setup is no metal to metal noise. I clip into my saddle's bridge. The brake is just below my chin.
Click to expand...
I can see how this works with a figure 8. But with an ATC I'm not sure since you are suppose to clip a carabiner through the wire loop and capture the loop of rope under the ATC. Using the method you show with an ATC would not allow you to clip into the loop and/or capture the rope. Maybe I'm thinking wrong, or missing something.
 
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