Rappelling setup, figure 8 or ATC, a few questions

[Hunter260]

I’m looking To get a rappel setup together to practice with before next season, and have a few questions. I’m doing this on a budget for now, to see if I’ll like 1 sticking. My planned setup is 40’ of sterling htp 9mm and either a figure 8 or an atc device. Couple questions from what I’ve found.

1. I’ve read on climbing sites that rappelling with a figure 8 causes twists in the rope, and might damage with long term use or at the least give you trouble when packing up the rope. Is this an issue with just like a 30’ rappel? Or just with 100’+ rappels?

2. It seems like a figure 8 would give you more variability in friction, with different ways to use it, and it seems pretty simple. Can I get that adjustability with an ATC device?

3. Are all figure 8 and ATC devices kind of created equal? As long as they’re rated for the rope and 22KN of weight or more? Anything special I should look for?

 

[arm breaker]

I do not think you will experience a ton of twisting with the figure 8 but I do notice it being a little different when I am down compared to an ATC or mechanical. You can use two carabiners with an ATC or

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/adding-friction-to-a-rappel

https://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/black-diamond-atc-rappelling

On your number three, for the basic ones I would say basically yes. When you get into some of the versions with additional options for braking what not then there is more variance. For our purposes one does not need anything super special.

 

[Wyatt_burp]

I’m looking To get a rappel setup together to practice with before next season, and have a few questions. I’m doing this on a budget for now, to see if I’ll like 1 sticking. My planned setup is 40’ of sterling htp 9mm and either a figure 8 or an atc device. Couple questions from what I’ve found.

1. I’ve read on climbing sites that rappelling with a figure 8 causes twists in the rope, and might damage with long term use or at the least give you trouble when packing up the rope. Is this an issue with just like a 30’ rappel? Or just with 100’+ rappels?

2. It seems like a figure 8 would give you more variability in friction, with different ways to use it, and it seems pretty simple. Can I get that adjustability with an ATC device?

3. Are all figure 8 and ATC devices kind of created equal? As long as they’re rated for the rope and 22KN of weight or more? Anything special I should look for?

1. I had an issue with my 30' oplux twisting until I added a link, which made everything easier anyway. Beyond that I do not know.

2. If set up properly the figure 8 combined with prussic allows you to stop at any point during descent. Most folks will tell you to spend the money on a better product, as it will make your descent easier. I disagree but I'm left handed so I already do everything wrong.

3. Not sure, but don't be a fool and be sure to check with the manufacturer before trusting your life to a device.

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[gcr0003]

I’m looking To get a rappel setup together to practice with before next season, and have a few questions. I’m doing this on a budget for now, to see if I’ll like 1 sticking. My planned setup is 40’ of sterling htp 9mm and either a figure 8 or an atc device. Couple questions from what I’ve found.

1. I’ve read on climbing sites that rappelling with a figure 8 causes twists in the rope, and might damage with long term use or at the least give you trouble when packing up the rope. Is this an issue with just like a 30’ rappel? Or just with 100’+ rappels?

2. It seems like a figure 8 would give you more variability in friction, with different ways to use it, and it seems pretty simple. Can I get that adjustability with an ATC device?

3. Are all figure 8 and ATC devices kind of created equal? As long as they’re rated for the rope and 22KN of weight or more? Anything special I should look for?

I've used the figure 8 to rappel all this season and I just started to notice twists in my rope despite running the twists out after each use before packing away. I am thinking about going back to the ATC. I too am concerned that after prolonged use the twists will sacrifice the integrity of the rope. Before I buy another ATC I am going to try severl different friction methods around the figure 8. I am hoping one of them will work just as well without twisting my rope up too much. I have about 30'-35' of rope and I am getting twists. I am use 5/16" ultratech.

 

[arm breaker]

1. I had an issue with my 30' oplux twisting until I added a link, which made everything easier anyway. Beyond that I do not know.

2. If set up properly the figure 8 combined with prussic allows you to stop at any point during descent. Most folks will tell you to spend the money on a better product, as it will make your descent easier. I disagree but I'm left handed so I already do everything wrong.

3. Not sure, but don't be a fool and be sure to check with the manufacturer before trusting your life to a device.

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Yeah on number three I was assuming we are talking about reputable brands and devices made for the purpose.

 

[gcr0003]

1. I had an issue with my 30' oplux twisting until I added a link, which made everything easier anyway. Beyond that I do not know.

Where did you add a link to help with twisting?

When I get to the bottom of the tree and unhook, the rope unwinds about a turn and a half.

 

[Hunter260]

Yeah on number three I was assuming we are talking about reputable brands and devices made for the purpose.

Yea I know to get reputable brands and everything, but I’ve seen 8s with ears and different things and didn’t know if those are better or worse for my intended use

 

[Wyatt_burp]

Where did you add a link to help with twisting?

When I get to the bottom of the tree and unhook, the rope unwinds about a turn and a half.

I had tied a figure 8 on a bight, and girth hitched rope to tree, when pulling down it would twist and bind up, I hooked the link to the 8 and just unscrew, screw in instead of girth hitching, no more twisting.

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[gcr0003]

I had tied a figure 8 on a bight, and girth hitched rope to tree, when pulling down it would twist and bind up, I hooked the link to the 8 and just unscrew, screw in instead of girth hitching, no more twisting.

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Oh yea I’m not talking about that. I was talking about twists from using the figure 8 beley device. I run it through a delta link up top.

 

[CharlieTN]

Certainly a figure-8 rappel device will introduce twist but honestly in the 20-30’ we’re talking about it will be minimal. One advantage is that there are a few different ways you can run the rope through it to get more or less friction depending on what you need. The ears mentioned are there to keep the rope from being bumped and moving up on the figure-8 to form a larks head and lock you up bad. I’ve never had it happen on a regular figure-8 but it can.

I switched to the Madrock Safe Guard but I will be honest, the figure-8 was smoother for the rappel. The only reason for switching was to have a rappel method on the rope the whole time.

 

[Hunter260]

Certainly a figure-8 rappel device will introduce twist but honestly in the 20-30’ we’re talking about it will be minimal. One advantage is that there are a few different ways you can run the rope through it to get more or less friction depending on what you need. The ears mentioned are there to keep the rope from being bumped and moving up on the figure-8 to form a larks head and lock you up bad. I’ve never had it happen on a regular figure-8 but it can.

I switched to the Madrock Safe Guard but I will be honest, the figure-8 was smoother for the rappel. The only reason for switching was to have a rappel method on the rope the whole time.

Did you use an auto block or just lock off with your figure 8?

 

[Weldabeast]

If u want to try on a budget all u would need is the rappel rope of ur choice and a carabineer ...add a prusik on that rope as a backup if u worried about the leg wrap as a break....

 

[Still Kicking]

The figure 8 with ears is very handy for tying off if you want to stay in place with no hands. The ears are really unnecessary if you are using a prussic or some other form of backup, which I would highly recommend.

 

[Brocky]

Some ways to use fig. 8.

 

[CharlieTN]

Did you use an auto block or just lock off with your figure 8?

I would use a Schwabisch Hitch placed below the figure-8 and clipped too a bridge loop as an auto-block. My braking hand would just keep pushing it down as I rappelled and if I needed to stop I simply let the Schwabisch take the weight. It also released easily when I needed to start rappelling.

 

[tcmetrohunter]

I'm no expert but I looked at quite a few rock climbing sites and found this setup to be reliable in that world. I tested it last weekend and it's about as simple as it gets for a safe rappel. I have a mammut atc clipped to my bridge and a prussic below it clipped to my lineman's loop. This allows the rope to feed through the atc without fear of the prussic getting jammed in it. If by some freak accident you're going down and you freak out or get knocked out when you release the prussic you stop. Your right hand stays on the prussic while rappelling and that controls your speed. I'll admit I have no idea what diameter rope I have because my arborist friend gave it to me for free. It worked well to rappel with and my ropeman 2 works well with it too.

On a side note since my setup for this weekend is preset no moving spots management hunt I bought a Beal Birdie tonight and tested that in my yard on the ground. I'll be using that this weekend since I'll be going up and down a more than once through out the day. I may back that up with a prussic at hunting height, which I know I should btw, but I haven't decided yet. The Beal is very smooth and locks in as nice as the Ropeman.

 

[cmatthew80]

I’m looking To get a rappel setup together to practice with before next season, and have a few questions. I’m doing this on a budget for now, to see if I’ll like 1 sticking. My planned setup is 40’ of sterling htp 9mm and either a figure 8 or an atc device. Couple questions from what I’ve found.

1. I’ve read on climbing sites that rappelling with a figure 8 causes twists in the rope, and might damage with long term use or at the least give you trouble when packing up the rope. Is this an issue with just like a 30’ rappel? Or just with 100’+ rappels?

You will still get some twisting but it's fairly easy to come out in 30' of rope. I would suggest that you use at least 40' (I use 50') though as you will need a bite of about 6' to make your figure of 8 knot and stopper knot to attach your delta quick link (or plain quick link, which is what I use. DO NOT use a carabiner as side loading them will cause them to snap) and 6' for around the tree (it's less than that but that's what I allot for it). Add on length that I like to put my tether (it get used as your tether) up as as high as I can reach (I'm a sitter, not a leaner) and my 50' of rope has about 5-7' on the ground when I lower it down with my crossbow before descending.

2. It seems like a figure 8 would give you more variability in friction, with different ways to use it, and it seems pretty simple. Can I get that adjustability with an ATC device?

I have used both. Short answer is no.

3. Are all figure 8 and ATC devices kind of created equal? As long as they’re rated for the rope and 22KN of weight or more? Anything special I should look for?

There are different sizes and styles of figure 8's. KAILAS makes a nice light small one that's 30kn. I tie a prusik knot below mine attached to my lineman's belt loop. (figure of 8 is clipped to my bridge). make sure that your auto stop knot can never touch the figure of 8 or ATC as it will cause it to open and down you go.

The one thing I found with the ATC is that it slightly binds on my way down and is not a smooth decent. Do yourself a favour and buy a
Beal Birdie Belay Device - exactly the same as a GriGri or Madrock and an extremely competitive price. These have an auto-stop. If I do not get one for Christmas I will be buying one and replacing my figure 8.

 

[Hunter260]

You will still get some twisting but it's fairly easy to come out in 30' of rope. I would suggest that you use at least 40' (I use 50') though as you will need a bite of about 6' to make your figure of 8 knot and stopper knot to attach your delta quick link (or plain quick link, which is what I use. DO NOT use a carabiner as side loading them will cause them to snap) and 6' for around the tree (it's less than that but that's what I allot for it). Add on length that I like to put my tether (it get used as your tether) up as as high as I can reach (I'm a sitter, not a leaner) and my 50' of rope has about 5-7' on the ground when I lower it down with my crossbow before descending.

I have used both. Short answer is no.

There are different sizes and styles of figure 8's. KAILAS makes a nice light small one that's 30kn. I tie a prusik knot below mine attached to my lineman's belt loop. (figure of 8 is clipped to my bridge). make sure that your auto stop knot can never touch the figure of 8 or ATC as it will cause it to open and down you go.

The one thing I found with the ATC is that it slightly binds on my way down and is not a smooth decent. Do yourself a favour and buy a
Beal Birdie Belay Device - exactly the same as a GriGri or Madrock and an extremely competitive price. These have an auto-stop. If I do not get one for Christmas I will be buying one and replacing my figure 8.

Just found a great deal on 40’ of rope and sent it. I think I’ll be doing a scaffold knot to a quick link instead of a figure 8 so that will save me a few feet of rope in knots. Is a stopper knot even necessary? Wouldn’t I be on the ground by the time I get to a stopper knot anyways?

 

[cmatthew80]

Just found a great deal on 40’ of rope and sent it. I think I’ll be doing a scaffold knot to a quick link instead of a figure 8 so that will save me a few feet of rope in knots. Is a stopper knot even necessary? Wouldn’t I be on the ground by the time I get to a stopper knot anyways?

The stopper knot is above the figure 8. This is the proper method to use (taught to me by a veteran rock climber) so that it will never come apart unless you intentionally take it apart. The figure 8 will also come apart easily for inspection after being under load.

Also - the reason to use a delta/quick link is that if you need to go around a branch you do not have to feed your entire length of rope through the loop. You attach your lineman's belt to the tree, undo your tether (main line) and move it above the limb and re-attach. then undo your lineman's belt and keep going.

 

[CharlieTN]

Just found a great deal on 40’ of rope and sent it. I think I’ll be doing a scaffold knot to a quick link instead of a figure 8 so that will save me a few feet of rope in knots. Is a stopper knot even necessary? Wouldn’t I be on the ground by the time I get to a stopper knot anyways?

It’s easy to confuse some of this terminology. There are stopper knots, also known as backup knots, that would be tied at the figure-8 knot to ensure that it didn’t come untied, then there are stopper knots at the end off the rappel rope so you don’t go zipping off of it on the rappel.

If you’re referring to a stopper knot at the end of the rope so that you don’t rappel off, the I would say no. Just make sure that you can see the rope laying on the ground before you rappel down. I started off with a stopper knot at the end but untied it the first time I had to pull my rope down over a branch so that the rope could pass through the quick link, just never retied it since I usually only climb to around 20’ high and my rope is 36’.

I prefer the scaffold knot over the figure-8 knot to hold the quick link since it keeps it held tight and keeps it from rotating. If tied correctly with a decent tag end sticking out and a thick enough quick link the concern of pulling the quick link up into the knot is pretty much negated. That concern would be pretty much the main reason I can see for going with the figure-8 knot instead.