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Thoughts on most recent poll results, deer hunting success, tree climbing risk

I’ve yet to hear many folks say “I know the risks for me are elevated, and I’m moving forward with my decision anyway, based on my personal assessment.”

Instead I just hear “you can die in a car wreck.”

Remember, believing that the risks might be elevated for you, does not change whether or not they’re elevated for you.
 
kyler1945 said:
I’ve yet to hear many folks say “I know the risks for me are elevated, and I’m moving forward with my decision anyway, based on my personal assessment.”

Instead I just hear “you can die in a car wreck.”

Remember, believing that the risks might be elevated for you, does not change whether or not they’re elevated for you.
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So I am not familiar with you, nor is this meant to start confrontation in any way. That said.....
What is the overall message here then. What is this conversation meant to accomplish? Awareness? I feel that the manner in which points have been delivered you are driving at something, some goal maybe. However, it feels to me like more then just awareness.
All anyone can do is believe that the risks are real, and take the precautions to mitigate them. Again, however, you can't control what people do on their own. Safety awareness has been a significant backbone of the message this very forum puts out. You see soooo many threads or posts talking about safety aspects and dangerous gear or tactics or what have you. I don't think you'll find one person that'll deny that getting older elevates the risk, along with individuals health and general wellness.

I guess my question is what are you getting at? If many (myself included) are missing the mark, then let's here what the mark is?
 
ThePennsylvanian said:
So I am not familiar with you, nor is this meant to start confrontation in any way. That said.....
What is the overall message here then. What is this conversation meant to accomplish? Awareness? I feel that the manner in which points have been delivered you are driving at something, some goal maybe. However, it feels to me like more then just awareness.
All anyone can do is believe that the risks are real, and take the precautions to mitigate them. Again, however, you can't control what people do on their own. Safety awareness has been a significant backbone of the message this very forum puts out. You see soooo many threads or posts talking about safety aspects and dangerous gear or tactics or what have you. I don't think you'll find one person that'll deny that getting older elevates the risk, along with individuals health and general wellness.

I guess my question is what are you getting at? If many (myself included) are missing the mark, then let's here what the mark is?
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Nope - it’s the awareness, and helping to recalibrate some brains on the way risk is managed.

I don’t think about a specific goal, other than “reduce suffering as much as possible”.

I’m sure buried under all of it is some desire to change something about my own life subconsciously. But as far as I can tell, I just see glaring holes in how the genpop thinks about these issues. The evidence is the denial and story telling.

To be clear, I’m confident there’s plenty of holes in the story I tell myself in other areas of life. I actively search for people in my life to point them out to me.

But one area I feel I can add value to this community is changing the way resources are allocated to certain outcomes. Be it safety, scouting, climbing, etc. We each have unique ways of thinking about problems. I think it’s safe to say I’m weird in the way I think about our common issues. Hopefully the consistent pressure changes some minds. It seems to do so in the random feedback I get from strangers saying “I don’t care much for your style, but you’re right and appreciate your effort to get the point across. It has helped me in X area.”

That’s it.

Just want to help. It feels good to hear people say “hey I never thought of it that way.”
 
We gotta get training every couple years on the "lift truck"/forklift at work.....the video they always show us that I can't find on utubes is a news clip of a lift truck fatality. The guy had been working there for 20+years. Complacency can be just as bad , if not worse, than inexperience
 
Some climbing methods are riskier than others. Some probably shouldn't exist. There are easy ways to get elevated, even for old and/or fat people.
 
Kyler, great thread. Where i think you’re off is that for the majority of us, tree hunting is far more effective way to get an ethical shot opportunity within bow range, in the woods that we hunt, and in public. I love still hunting on the ground, but it’s less effective, and for me less fun. I prefer an unsuccessful 3 hour hang to an unsuccessful stalk/ground hunt. Saddle hunting and rope methods allow for staying on the ground when the situation dictates, and being effective, without having a slab of metal on your back.

Rather than retreating to stalking and blind hunting, It would be better for us aging guys that don’t have 30 years experience hunting, and are not arborists, if there was a 16 hour course on a weekend, like scuba diving. with a few standard methods and the gear to climb the tree and anchor in for the hunt safely. That‘s how this is different than sky diving, climbing, scuba diving, etc. it‘s becuase methods are still being innovated.

i think during this innovation period, we should steer some of the methods here towards safer options, rather than just lighter/faster options. Otherwise this is the innovation time, and in this time, i think it’s reasonable risk most of us are taking.
 
I totally get what you are saying and after 30 years in Naval Aviation I’m no stranger to real time and ongoing risk management in a very unforgiving environment. That said, I would offer that you do other activities daily that are much more dangerous than climbing a tree. I actually think climbing a tree is fairly safe for me, even at 60, because I am in control of almost all the variables except maybe an unforeseen equipment failure. Driving is much more dangerous, given that you do not have control of many of the risks, namely all those around you. When was the last time you spent 20 uninterrupted minutes thinking about not driving anymore? Or at least consciously reducing your driving to the minimum necessary? Take the bus, ride a bicycle, consolidate trips, etc., or do you just jump in the truck and go whenever you want? I guess my point is, life is about managing risk, not totally eliminating it, otherwise life and hunting would be pretty dull. Did I mention that I have this really sweet Ducati superbike with 33k on the clock? Everyone’s risk tolerance is different and I won’t tell you that your’s is wrong, because it’s yours. Stay safe my friend….
 
2Sloe said:
I totally get what you are saying and after 30 years in Naval Aviation I’m no stranger to real time and ongoing risk management in a very unforgiving environment. That said, I would offer that you do other activities daily that are much more dangerous than climbing a tree. I actually think climbing a tree is fairly safe for me, even at 60, because I am in control of almost all the variables except maybe an unforeseen equipment failure. Driving is much more dangerous, given that you do not have control of many of the risks, namely all those around you. When was the last time you spent 20 uninterrupted minutes thinking about not driving anymore? Or at least consciously reducing your driving to the minimum necessary? Take the bus, ride a bicycle, consolidate trips, etc., or do you just jump in the truck and go whenever you want? I guess my point is, life is about managing risk, not totally eliminating it, otherwise life and hunting would be pretty dull. Did I mention that I have this really sweet Ducati superbike with 33k on the clock? Everyone’s risk tolerance is different and I won’t tell you that your’s is wrong, because it’s yours. Stay safe my friend….
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I’ve logged a million miles in a vehicle.

I hate driving.

I’m witness to dozens of terrible accidents involving serious injury and death. I’ve lost a very close friend to a drunk driving accident.

I have significant context on driving. I am acutely aware of the risks, and actively reduce my leisure drive time when at all possible. I don’t drive tired. I don’t drive drunk. I don’t text and drive.

You are on point and we agree. I would love to have the same conversation about driving with people. But we’re talking about hunting.

I’m not trying to get anyone to change their actions. I’m hoping to get folks thinking about the risks involved with climbing, much the way you likely do in your profession. Only because the costs are so high.

I assume everyone thinks that I am a boring risk averse person who missionary’s my way through life. I’m not. I engage in risky behavior. Often. What I try to do is consider the risk/reward equation, consider whether I can get the same reward more efficiently/safely, and move forward informed.

I take many risks where the risk itself is the reward. Climbing trees to kill deer is not that type of equation. How do I know? 90% of people said they don’t get a ton of satisfaction from climbing. My point here is that people think climbing is safer than it is. And many are doing a risk/reward equation based on bad priors. I’m not saying YOU, or YOU, or even YOU are doing this. I’m saying tens of thousands of people are.

And we can voice that information, for the people who might be reading prior to doing the math, thinking through, or having doubts, or had a near miss, or who are open to thinking bout things a bit more clearly.

This question isn’t directed at you, I quoted you to discuss the driving topic specifically, but for everyone:

Why does it seem like many folks are allergic to just saying these types of things out loud? Have I said anything untrue? Why are we worried about getting more visibility to the topic? I don’t mean 400 more threads about how saddles are safer than stands because some YouTube dude says so. I mean a slow, deliberate, emotionless, open conversation designed to get people to think?
 
I agree that huntjng is just one of many areas in our lives where we take on risk. And some of that risk is necessary to make the effort enjoyable. I just see a really big gap between perceived risk and actual risk. And perceived reward and actual reward. And that giant gap is likely going to be responsible for quite a few more dead folks. I’d like to close that gap if possible, and maybe help avoid some of that.
 
Weldabeast said:
We gotta get training every couple years on the "lift truck"/forklift at work.....the video they always show us that I can't find on utubes is a news clip of a lift truck fatality. The guy had been working there for 20+years. Complacency can be just as bad , if not worse, than inexperience
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100%, when I was in Iraq back in 2006. I was at a little base called camp Korean village. Leaving the base there was a huge sign with a skull and criss bones that said complacency kills. That's has stuck with me for some reason. Complacency is cancer, it grow silently and before eyou know it boom, your up sh*t crick with out a paddle . . . . All I have to say is that they didn't just one day up and decide to out that sign there, somebody or some people aren't with us anymore because they didn't stay frosty..... know your gear, know your SELF, and slow down.... slow is smooth, smooth is fast.....
 
Man i love this one.see i have Flipped every motercycle i rode as a kid.so i dont ride quads or bikes.i know some one who broke their back riding one as a kid.though it makes me nervous i let my kids ride.i let them snowboard even though i hit a tree.that said.i dont think every one should climb trees to shoot deer.playing aside in my line of work it is my job to asighn a compitant person.my job is dangerous and i wouldnt let most of these skilled roofers come climb with me.even on this forum i vet any one i send anything to first.it takes alot to convince me that i dont have to worry about my dude climbing a wet tree in the dark three ridges over with no cell service.only a handfull of people fit the mold.percived risks to actual risk.i love that.so many threads just wondering if this strap or that thred is a million pound shock load proof for bungie jumpers when they should be woundering why they even do this.i could sell asteroid might strike my nuts insurance all day on here.you know.cuz it could happen ,but what is the real risk.i have had mis haps climbing branches plastic steps and 2tc.but havent been able to hurt my self like peope do with metal sticks or treestands.just my opinion.aint worth 2 terds.or i might trade it.good convo.is it fair to our family that we risk our lives for deer.just rancid food for thought.
 
kyler1945 said:
I still think a lot of folks are missing what I’m trying to say. It’s not that there aren’t flexible badarse fat guys, and it’s not that there aren’t salty old men with wiry strength and wit to boot.

It’s collectively, as a group, the risks are much greater, and the outcomes are much more severe. And that viewed from a high level, these should help inform your decisions to take part in risky activities. In addition to alternatives that give a person as much joy, may also inform the decisions.

You’re seeming to get the big picture, minus the denial. There are ways to get the juice, without hanging 30’ in the air to squeeze.

Or, you can keep squeezing from up there, knowing the risks are elevated if you’re in certain demographics. Even if you’re the cool fit awesome exception!
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I understand what you are saying and what I am saying is that I think your new focus on the "denial" or what I would call "calculated risk" is coming from the pressure of your new responsibilities of a family.

When you first have a child the normal reaction is that you are the first person to ever have a kid. I think this reaction is insictive so that new parents are hyperfocused on being good parents when they have no real experience raising a child, just like my lab instinctively flushes a pheasant or retrieves a duck.

Good luck with your family and with your deer season.
 
Nosaj said:
I understand what you are saying and what I am saying is that I think your new focus on the "denial" or what I would call "calculated risk" is coming from the pressure of your new responsibilities of a family.

When you first have a child the normal reaction is that you are the first person to ever have a kid. I think this reaction is insictive so that new parents are hyperfocused on being good parents when they have no real experience raising a child, just like my lab instinctively flushes a pheasant or retrieves a duck.

Good luck with your family and with your deer season.
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I’m offering context as to how the equation changes for me personally based on my inputs. It does not change at all my perspective on these things.

Hoping that people can see that it’s possible to maintain an open thought process, while being human.

You’re making the assumption that thousands, if not millions of hunters are making “good” calculated risks. I’m not. I’m seeing the gap between perceived and actual risk at an all time high. And I’m seeing the gap between perceived reward, and actual reward, also at an all time high.

If I believed that everyone had good information, was doing some good internal math and thought and contemplation, and was taking risk based on sound reasoning and good priors, I’d be talking about camo patterns and scent control.
 
It’s an interesting post and certainly food for thought. Personally I’ve had success from both ground and trees. I feel BY FAR the most safe I have elevated in a saddle. My biggest buck to date was from a tree I got into via some half rotted nailed in steps with no safety gear of any sort involved.
I’d venture to guess that many inexperienced hunters shoot more deer from the ground because they are learning a new skill and are making the minimal investment they can to see if they enjoy it and then purchase upgrades as money and enjoyment dictates. I know that was the case for me.
I’m required to shoot from an elevated position for some of my tags this year but I don’t view that as a necessary evil, I view that as a measure of safety for others as well as an advantage for me and I feel that you completely neglected that aspect. If everyone hunting public ground was required to shoot from an elevated position I’d still shotgun hunt public land too.
Just my thoughts, hope everyone enjoys their time in the woods and finds a measure of happiness in their life from their time there regardless of how they find that enjoyment.
 
Great thread. I think if it helps one person thoughtfully pay closer attention to what they actually need to do to kill a deer, it's worth it. Most of my deer kills over the last 2 years have just been from 6-8 feet up on a tree. I used to go 20-25 no matter what cuz higher is better right? Well turns out nope. going 6 foot up tucks me in with the first few branches and gives me just enough height advantage to see over the brush.
 
HuskerInIowa said:
It’s an interesting post and certainly food for thought. Personally I’ve had success from both ground and trees. I feel BY FAR the most safe I have elevated in a saddle. My biggest buck to date was from a tree I got into via some half rotted nailed in steps with no safety gear of any sort involved.
I’d venture to guess that many inexperienced hunters shoot more deer from the ground because they are learning a new skill and are making the minimal investment they can to see if they enjoy it and then purchase upgrades as money and enjoyment dictates. I know that was the case for me.
I’m required to shoot from an elevated position for some of my tags this year but I don’t view that as a necessary evil, I view that as a measure of safety for others as well as an advantage for me and I feel that you completely neglected that aspect. If everyone hunting public ground was required to shoot from an elevated position I’d still shotgun hunt public land too.
Just my thoughts, hope everyone enjoys their time in the woods and finds a measure of happiness in their life from their time there regardless of how they find that enjoyment.
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I definitely lack the perspective on huntjng places where you’re required to be elevated. I think I would gladly hunt those places now. But in 20 years? Probably not. If I weighed 275lbs, probably not.

It isn’t because folks like that can’t do it. It just wouldn’t be worth the risk to me. Mostly knowing I could be in a place where that’s not required, with just as many and as big of deer, with just as beautiful of country, and as enjoyable of an experience all the way around. Maybe I have to drive extra on each end to get there. Or pay a few hundred bucks for tags. Or some other downside.

I appreciate the perspective though. I had not even considered places that require you to climb.

I would love to see the thought process, and data they made those regulations based on.
 
philsanchez76 said:
Great thread. I think if it helps one person thoughtfully pay closer attention to what they actually need to do to kill a deer, it's worth it. Most of my deer kills over the last 2 years have just been from 6-8 feet up on a tree. I used to go 20-25 no matter what cuz higher is better right? Well turns out nope. going 6 foot up tucks me in with the first few branches and gives me just enough height advantage to see over the brush.
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This is pretty much where I am as well. In a climber it was always 30' or bust. When I started with a saddle, I'd only go around 18' because let's face it, EVERY climbing method sucks. Lately I've been setting my platform only arms length above my head (7'ish) while standing on the ground and then using a 3 step aider to get up to it. Thought about doing a how-to on my uber-light-weight-super-dope-no-rope rappel (jumping down) but I figured @kyler1945 would blast me on it.

Seriously though, for anyone who hasn't talked to him, Kyle really does mean well. I used to joke that he was our resident curmudgeon. I've since changed my tune because he has valid points. Think one of them is that people generally aren't good at weighing pros and cons.
 
kyler1945 said:
I definitely lack the perspective on huntjng places where you’re required to be elevated. I think I would gladly hunt those places now. But in 20 years? Probably not. If I weighed 275lbs, probably not.

It isn’t because folks like that can’t do it. It just wouldn’t be worth the risk to me. Mostly knowing I could be in a place where that’s not required, with just as many and as big of deer, with just as beautiful of country, and as enjoyable of an experience all the way around. Maybe I have to drive extra on each end to get there. Or pay a few hundred bucks for tags. Or some other downside.

I appreciate the perspective though. I had not even considered places that require you to climb.

I would love to see the thought process, and data they made those regulations based on.
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It’s a deer management urban area with nearby homes or businesses and trails. Seems valid; we want pass through shots. That controls population in the area and allows me to put meat in the freezer if I come through; but it isn’t as easy as folks think.
You seem really focused on obese and older. I’m 40 and my desire to be able to get into more places others don’t helped propel me to get back into good shape, I can foresee it being a reason I continue to do so.
Have you considered that maybe there are more injuries among older people because they grew up without safety gear and never adopted it? Or that “obese” people didn’t have the proper ropes or saddle?
 
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