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Is the High FOC IDEA good or bad for the hunting community?

3 years ago I shot a small (tender) 2 year old buck with a light setup and expendables slightly quartering away. Arrow deflected went down his body cavity. He didnt go far and died but I was unimpressed my new Mathews Tactic didnt get a pass threw at like 18 yards. My older brother loved it telling me Mathews are junk. Over the off season I learned about fixed heads and heaver arrows. It wasnt the bow! Last season a buck, probably a 3 year old and doe (2?) about the same distance 125 Magnus SerRazor Black Hornets with a 250 spine Sirus Vulcan 125 grain insert straight pass throughs no problem. Watched the buck go down in 60 heard the doe crash 40 yards(?) Im sold. Light arrows with mechanical heads are junk.

Hmmm. I don't know how my 20 year old Mathews consistently puts 100grain mechanicals through deer then, with exits through bone when thats the shot angle.

If it's not the bow....must be the arrow?
 
I can't, and don't feel that anyone can, about the good of the community. A hunting setup is a deeply personalized aspect. The choices someone as to how and why they have their setup is something that only they can answer for. I don't shoot very heavy, relatively speaking. I do shoot a single bevel kudu point, because I love the strength and reusability of these. I chose my current setup because it works for the way I hunt. I have experience with it, not that I'm afraid of trying something new, but I don't see a need to. If I was experiencing lost deer, or something like that, maybe, but I'm not going to change my setup because it's the next big thing. Heavy arrows, high focus setups work, if that's what a fella chooses and it works for his setup, then no one can critize that.
So what are you really asking, "is it good for the hunting community"? What stands to be lost or gained by the community by the choice of a personal set up?
 
While I agree with @SnakeEater completely, I will come at this from a little different angle. The debates over FOC and TAW lead to division, sometimes heated division and that is not good for the community. A large percentage of these debates seem to arise between folks that in reality have not killed enough stuff to have a valid opinion on the matter in the first place. So the fact that this high FOC and TAW trend is getting people to have a better understanding of tuning, learning their equipment is a great thing and more focus on accuracy is a great thing. But the rest of the discussion is similar to discussing boots. There are several great boots available but there are only a couple that work for my foot. Your hunting setup is not really all that different because people have different wants from their setups, they hunt different environments for different animals and want different levels of accuracy at different distances. In my mind, for a given bow, draw length and draw weight, there is a relative minimum arrow weight and broadhead combination where success can be expected. My opinions on that are based mostly on my experiences and those of the guys I hunt with regularly because we have shot a fairly significant amount of stuff with a fairly significant variety of setups. Pre-internet, that's how it worked. I am certainly not anti heavy arrow or high FOC. I am just not sure that I see a benefit to pushing an agenda when you can not possibly know all the factors impacting a particular hunter's goals and objectives or skills with tuning or accuracy. I see it as more valuable to encourage learning, promote practice and accuracy, explain what we have seen from our first hand experiences but let the shooter determine the road they want to travel as they build their own experiences. You havent learned without doing, you have just accumulated some information.
 
I'd say it's mostly just a bunch of noise from people that need to step away from bangin' the old keyboard and hunt more instead of just watching youtubes of people hunting.

But you bring up a good point about the "industry" interests intent on selling shiny new stuff that often isn't in our best interests.
 
I had been shooting a 500 grain arrows, with a single bevel, at around 12% FOC for years. I draw 50lbs with an arrow speed around 225FPS. Over the last 10 years this setup has fully penetrated every deer I have shot and has broken legs and shoulders along the way. There is a real trajectory to my setup and it takes 3 pins to cover out to 30 yards. It took me a while to develop trust in the trajectory but now I know it like the back of my hand. New bow 2 years ago and I wanted to try a higher FOC build. Ended up at 525 grain over 20% FOC still @ 225FPS. No doubt in my mind the higher FOC arrows are a better arrow from an accuracy standpoint. Slightly noticeable over 1000's of shots on the practice range with field points but very evident with large broadheads. The only drawback I see is my high FOC arrow shafts have thinner walls (lighter GPI) and the break easier. They are tough as nails on direct impact (they actually survive hard impacts better) but any lateral impact and they snap like twigs. I don't think there is any debate that higher FOC arrows are superior flying arrows. The problems come with the weight added when you try to add FOC with the same higher GPI shafts and that is a trajectory change and really has nothing to do with FOC. Apples to apples higher FOC arrows fly better.
 
It’s a productive debate, but I do suspect the most helpful wave of propaganda would be a fairy who gets everybody to start practicing and tuning from elevated hunting mimicking positions. I bet if we looked under the hood the flight we’re creating flat at the range is not always playing out the same from the tree… and in fairness a mech will punish you less for that difference in form and flight. And for what it’s worth I like my new Day Six broadheads but I’m still tweaking tweaking tweaking to get em to fly well. It’s me it’s not them.

Long story short I suspect we have higher penetration setups across the land, but also very likely statistically worse shooting arrows because of those fixed heads. As a nation, our accuracy may be dropping, is that good, I dunno.
 
Here is a pattern that may be problematic:
  • Why do you aim for a bullet hole through paper?
  • It’s one indication the bow is tuned, and it’s more likely the broadhead will fly well.​
  • Great.​
  • Are you shooting a bullet hole through paper when you’re 25 feet up?​
  • I don’t know, probably?​
  • Well how well are your big fixed heads flying from the treestand?​
  • TBH I can’t tell you, I’ve only shot them horizontally at range conditions.​
If good nock travel = accuracy and good broadhead flight, and we shoot at an angle from a tree, seems to me all of this should be verified at a common shot angle, ESPECIALLY when using the HOT new FOC builds that we plan to launch 40 yards.
 
The beauty of being an American is that we are free to take whatever information is available and apply it to our use, or not. We are free to choose. If you want Cape Buffalo equipment for squirrels, go for it. I would never criticize anyone for overkill but you are free to do that also if you choose.
Man! The voice of reason! Thank you for this comment! Same goes for clothing, bows, climbing system, redundant backups, and everything else. Just one of the liberties we ”chose” to defend! Again, thanks!
 
I am a newbie (4th year bowhunting) and hope to get my first bow whitetail harvest this year. I have been shooting a bow since I was a kid and never bow hunted till now due to my lack of confidence, skill, and fear of non-fatally wounding a deer.

Over the last few years I really got serious and started practicing and scouring the world wide web for info and data (I'm the only bowhunter in my family). I built a bow press, learned to string and tune my bow. I later learned to make my own arrows.

One thing I could never figure out is why I had arrows that were fliers or ones that stuck out of targets at angles (\\\ or /// not |||). I tired store bought arrows, different brands, aluminum, twisted bow strings, leaned cams.... lost of things. I was all over the place.

Then I heard about nock and broadhead tuning. It clicked. The fliers were caused by one part of the equation (arrows) not being tuned. Now my arrows fly really good (|||) and this is the first time I can ever say I can bare shaft groups 20 yards that I'm proud of.

Yes my total weight and FOC is probably higher than it needs to be. The reason I have stuck with my heavy arrows and high FOC is my personal results: quiet bow, consistent good arrow flight, more thud & rocking target (confidence booster for energy at impact), & knowing that science supports that my arrow is more apt to pass through.
 
Maybe this is a good comparison/analogy I'm not sure.....a guy walks into a bow shop and says.. Hey my wife wants to start hunting. What does the shop say?....u need a heavier arrow with a smaller diameter fixed blade broadhead....and the guy say ok

Now the utuber is saying....hey, u need a heavier arrow with a smaller diameter fixed blade broadhead...and it's not good?

Watching all those videos plus a couple other resources showed me how to tune a bow, build an arrow, tune an arrow, all of which I had never done/thought about doing. Learning all that made me into a "better" archer...as in I'm way more confident in my shooting ability because of all the shooting during all the tuning processes, I learned all about my bow and better understand how it all works, and I know that each arrow I choose to be 1 of my hunters is flying right because it's been thru the process.
I am the first to admit I'm inexperienced.... I've shot 3 deer with my bow. 1 broadside at 20 off the ground that the impact was center mass where they tell u to aim...2" mechanical on a 29" carbon arrow/alum insert/lighted nocks...the deer was dropping and rolling away when the arrow got there... arrow was hanging out the side as she ran off. I found the arrow with a mangled up broadhead and blood maybe 3-5 inches up the arrow shaft.. never recovered the deer. 2nd was elevated 20yd broadside...deer turned and rolled and was pretty much facing away from me when the arrow arrived...went in behind the last rib I front of the hip at the most extreme "quartering away" u can get before it's just butt facing u.....arrow traveled the length of the deer missing all vitals and cut all the main tubes in the neck on the exit. Full length pass thru...Deer ran 10 feet and fell over. 29"arrow/125 single bevel/100 insert/lighted nock ...560ish arrow. 3rd I won't say the weight but it's heavy...broadside at 20 off the ground little reaction (is that because my bow is so quiet now shooting heavy?) Pass thru and then impact with a 2nd deer standing behind the first. Intended target "didnt go 20" and I watched her fall...arrow stayed with the 2nd deer and unfortunately wasn't able to find either.

If u are willing to do all the work involved with the process it is 100% a good idea for the "community" but if u aren't willing to do all the work then maybe u should just keep doing what u been doing....IMO

The trajectory thing is a non issue for me...just gotta practice. My son and I shoot lizards off the fence and 40yds with his red Ryder 1 pump bb gun...it's like a rainbow flying thru the air but even with the iron (plastic) sight with practice u know the hold over...but because of my experience with that 2nd deer I try to limit my shots to 25...30 is max....Not because I can't shoot accurately at further distances...but because the deer move so fast
 
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I think its great for the community. As mentioned it makes some more aware of their equipment/set up. I would bet there is a large % of people that got their bow tuned better by experimenting with FOC, etc. than what it was before.

For me personally I shoot a 425 grain arrow with 2 blade mechanical head. Light compared to what you hear about. Luckily, I have not hit a shoulder bone but I pass through every deer I have shot and killed with my bow. I believe I am in the 20's with bow/arrow kills thus far with that set up. I have had great experience with 'my setup' and I know my bow is fully in tune. I never checked my FOC but I bet its around 40%.

I fully get the high FOC and heavier arrow set ups. We don't live in a perfect world so if you hit an animal where you didn't intend to it can be beneficial. I just know my bow gets the job done well and have no reason to change it up at this point.
 
I think as a whole it's just another pendulum swing in the market. Not good or bad, just novel. Something for the overly-analytical to spin their wheels on and generate a little money for the industry.

People act like nobody tuned their gear before the ranchferret. But my great grandfather tillered his own American Flatbows and had a spine tester in his shed for his cedar shafts. My grandfather had a corner of his garage with a bitzenberger and bow vise. My dad and I would watch ole T-Bone's tuning and form videos. People who go deep enough into the rabbit hole always end up there.

PLENTY of deer have been killed with cedar shafts, wooden limbs, and 250 grain fixed heads. PLENTY of deer have been killed with light arrows, hatchet cams, and mechs. PLENTY of deer will probably get killed with high FOC inserts and single bevel broadheads. Because deer just aren't that hard to poke a hole in at the end of the day.

The important thing is, how do you stay in business selling archery tackle when the guys with disposable income have already bought a bow, a case, 2 dozen ultralight shafts, and 2 dozen 2" expandables? The average joe is set for years if not life at that point. But if you can catch him fuming after losing a deer he poked in the shoulder and convince him that he needs all new gear...

And then, once that dries up, you catch him fuming because he shot a foot under a deer...

And if you're a youtuber, how do you carve out a slice of attention in a saturated market (because lord knows everything that can be said about how to throw one stick with another stick has been said and resaid). You give people "secret knowledge" counter to the prevailing trends. Works for youtubers, fad diet gurus, financial advisors, televangelists, and a host of other parasitic organisms.

There are some good ideas and advice in the Ash-fairy "movement". There are good ideas in the Atkins and Keto fad diets. There are good ideas in every single political party, religious ideology, underground movement, and internet forum clique (looking at you/us, saddlehunter.com members). And then there's some hoopla, ra-ra, BS memes designed to make us feel good about doing a thing that benefits whoever thought the whole mess up.

If you watch some videos, get some new info, let it marinate for a while, hold it up and look at it next to the other information you have, and determine that you could make a few changes to how you do things and obtain a comparative advantage...that's good. If you watch a video, shout "eureka!" and throw out $300 worth of goods to buy another $300 worth of goods...that's good too, just not for you.
 
I think as a whole it's just another pendulum swing in the market. Not good or bad, just novel. Something for the overly-analytical to spin their wheels on and generate a little money for the industry.

People act like nobody tuned their gear before the ranchferret. But my great grandfather tillered his own American Flatbows and had a spine tester in his shed for his cedar shafts. My grandfather had a corner of his garage with a bitzenberger and bow vise. My dad and I would watch ole T-Bone's tuning and form videos. People who go deep enough into the rabbit hole always end up there.

PLENTY of deer have been killed with cedar shafts, wooden limbs, and 250 grain fixed heads. PLENTY of deer have been killed with light arrows, hatchet cams, and mechs. PLENTY of deer will probably get killed with high FOC inserts and single bevel broadheads. Because deer just aren't that hard to poke a hole in at the end of the day.

The important thing is, how do you stay in business selling archery tackle when the guys with disposable income have already bought a bow, a case, 2 dozen ultralight shafts, and 2 dozen 2" expandables? The average joe is set for years if not life at that point. But if you can catch him fuming after losing a deer he poked in the shoulder and convince him that he needs all new gear...

And then, once that dries up, you catch him fuming because he shot a foot under a deer...

And if you're a youtuber, how do you carve out a slice of attention in a saturated market (because lord knows everything that can be said about how to throw one stick with another stick has been said and resaid). You give people "secret knowledge" counter to the prevailing trends. Works for youtubers, fad diet gurus, financial advisors, televangelists, and a host of other parasitic organisms.

There are some good ideas and advice in the Ash-fairy "movement". There are good ideas in the Atkins and Keto fad diets. There are good ideas in every single political party, religious ideology, underground movement, and internet forum clique (looking at you/us, saddlehunter.com members). And then there's some hoopla, ra-ra, BS memes designed to make us feel good about doing a thing that benefits whoever thought the whole mess up.

If you watch some videos, get some new info, let it marinate for a while, hold it up and look at it next to the other information you have, and determine that you could make a few changes to how you do things and obtain a comparative advantage...that's good. If you watch a video, shout "eureka!" and throw out $300 worth of goods to buy another $300 worth of goods...that's good too, just not for you.

A touch ironic....but every word true.
 
I think it’s good but some people need to tone it down, myself included. Last year I ended up shooting 750gn with about 18% foc. This year it’s more like 550 and 14%. I could lower the weight a bit by different shafts and no led nocks. The arrows fly well. I think the push for COC broadheads is undoubtedly a good thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I've shot 4 animals in the last 3 years with my bow since switching to heavier BH's and COC, but I didn't go crazy with it. Never looking back. Three northern whitetails and one cow elk, all pass throughs. I'll take a hole on each side over one big rage size hole with an arrow still in it any day.

I shoot Gold Tip Kinetic Pierce Arrows with 150gr Wasp Sharpshooter BH's
 
So do you guys think it would have got as much traction if some guy came out with a channel and said. Not getting enough penatration? Just use a slightly heavier COC Broadhead and check the tune on your bow!
Or would that not been dramatic enough?
I personally like the sarcasm. The channel may have blended in with all the other bow hunting set up videos if there was no spice to it. Example average Jack is a very mellow on screen persona. Good info IMO But I don't know if I have watched any of his videos front to back because he is pretty dry.
Was there any channel or other resource out there putting that info out into the public?

So as @Nutterbuster mentioned he had two generations of bow tweaking skills to assist. My father got me started hunting. But the bow shop set up the bow, and I practiced. We built arrows. But never "tuned" anything. "Didn't kill much either" lol.
Why did it take so long for the tweaking and adjusting idea to really come out? Did bow shops not want to share the secret for business? Or did they just not know any better either? 20years ago were shops shooting through paper? Was I just at the wrong shops?
 
So do you guys think it would have got as much traction if some guy came out with a channel and said. Not getting enough penatration? Just use a slightly heavier COC Broadhead and check the tune on your bow!
Or would that not been dramatic enough?
I personally like the sarcasm. The channel may have blended in with all the other bow hunting set up videos if there was no spice to it. Example average Jack is a very mellow on screen persona. Good info IMO But I don't know if I have watched any of his videos front to back because he is pretty dry.
Was there any channel or other resource out there putting that info out into the public?

So as @Nutterbuster mentioned he had two generations of bow tweaking skills to assist. My father got me started hunting. But the bow shop set up the bow, and I practiced. We built arrows. But never "tuned" anything. "Didn't kill much either" lol.
Why did it take so long for the tweaking and adjusting idea to really come out? Did bow shops not want to share the secret for business? Or did they just not know any better either? 20years ago were shops shooting through paper? Was I just at the wrong shops?
I know the shop I went to as a kid didn't shoot through paper. I think as things evolved shop owners got smarter/more knowledgeable. I would assume some shops were doing it but not as many as today. As much as I hate technology I have learned a lot but I've also thought I learned a lot by watching the wrong people as well. Not a big RF fan but he sure knew how to make a name for himself
 
So as @Nutterbuster mentioned he had two generations of bow tweaking skills to assist.
I would not say my grandad assisted me much. Saying we've been estranged since I was a little kid is putting it delicately. Dad and I learned by goobering up stuff until it wasn't goobered any more.

Retail stores generally lose money with services. The service is just there to sell you goodies. Even if somebody else has a lower price, if I install a gizmo for you, you'll be tempted to buy it for me. The quicker I get said gizmo installed and you out the door, the quicker I can get back to stocking shelves and selling the next gizmo to the next guy. Retail pays crap and works you crap hours, and tuning a bow is a thing that is not hard to do, but it's a sight harder than flipping burgers or throwing sod. You can't really pick somebody up off the street and make them a good tech with retail pay as the incentive. So, you either get somebody with some retail experience and try to teach them to do a tedious thing they're not really interested in and they either leave or get promoted to manager and then quickly half-azz train a replacement, or you get a retired old man who doesn't really need the money and who thinks it will be fun until he remembers that he hates interacting with the general public and leaves or does whatever he can to get you out of his hair so he can go back to talking with his retired buddies who visit him. Neither individual is particularly interested in teaching you anything or doing more than is listed in the training manual, and even if by some miracle they feel helpful they're likely being pressured to work on your stuff as quickly as possible in the name of productivity because retail has been floundering for years and every retail store is under-staffed.

That's why most bow shops aren't very helpful.
 
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