Is the High FOC IDEA good or bad for the hunting community?

[FletchDeep]

I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the people who follow the "throw more point weight at it" theory, just finally end up sending an arrow slow enough that it doesn't generate enough drag to plane off. I setup a recurve this year and it dang sure doesn't shoot clean holes in paper but an 1.5" fixed blade still hits the center at 20 yards. Now my compound is tuned to the gnats ass with an arrow that is adequately stiff. That's one of the main issues I have with the gender confused corn spreader's point weight tuning methods. With a modern compound and a release, it's impossible for an arrow to be too stiff if you tune to perfectly level (vertical & horizontal) nock travel. I know this how? I use a 6" firenock carbon inner tube in the front of my 300 spine goldtip, which equates to a seriously stiff arrow. I can shoot my 100 grain point at 300 fps, bullet hole through paper, perfect bareshafts, and broadheads. I can then screw in a 200 and 300 grain point and still shoot bullet holes. That wouldn't be possible if "too stiff" arrows reacted differently in a compound. There are only two categories of arrows for well tuned compound bows, stiff enough, and weak.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

........I never checked my FOC but I bet its around 40%........

You might want to check it. 30% is difficult at achieve. 40% is about impossible.
19% - 29% is considered efoc.
40 would be off the charts.

 

[Plebe]

Why did it take so long for the tweaking and adjusting idea to really come out? Did bow shops not want to share the secret for business? Or did they just not know any better either? 20years ago were shops shooting through paper? Was I just at the wrong shops?

Yes, I shot through paper at the bow shop range 20 years ago with the owner, in TX.

I bought a bow in MI, at Gauthier's Archery, and shot every bow in the shop. Set the bow up, picked arrows, spun and selected from the entire batch, and we shot bare shaft paper, then set the arrows up, and tuned. That was around 2006-07 I think. That time with a shop worker who shot a bit for Hoyt I think.

The shop in my hometown will walk you through a completely thorough tune, for a fee. Basically, I did this and more for free in the shop with the tech at Gauthier's many years ago:

Bow “Performance” Rebuilding
Performance Bow Tune. $159.00

*accessories and parts extra (all documents included) set draw length* - draw weight - peep settings – archer supplied arrows - string, cable & cam lean & synchronizing - rest spine and align - basic form training - dynamic (paper) tune - chronograph for speed, energy and momentum - 1st and 2nd axis level on sight - sight in 20 yard pin - 100% guaranteed installation on all parts.
Bow “Match Performance” Rebuilding
Match Performance Bow Tune $185.00

*accessories and parts extra (all documents included) set draw length* - draw weight - peep settings - arrow building and dynamic testing - string, cable & cam lean & synchronizing - rest spine and align - basic form training - dynamic (paper) tune - chronograph for speed, energy and momentum - 1st and 2nd axis level on sight - sight in 20 yard pin - 100% guaranteed installation on all parts

 

[NATHAN]

Good. Just to get the gears grinding again, did you know that Gold Tip recommends 12%-15% FOC. Ha ha, have fun. Logging off.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Yes, I shot through paper at the bow shop range 20 years ago with the owner, in TX.

I bought a bow in MI, at Gauthier's Archery, and shot every bow in the shop. Set the bow up, picked arrows, spun and selected from the entire batch, and we shot bare shaft paper, then set the arrows up, and tuned. That was around 2006-07 I think. That time with a shop worker who shot a bit for Hoyt I think.

The shop in my hometown will walk you through a completely thorough tune, for a fee. Basically, I did this and more for free in the shop with the tech at Gauthier's many years ago:

Bow “Performance” Rebuilding
Performance Bow Tune. $159.00

*accessories and parts extra (all documents included) set draw length* - draw weight - peep settings – archer supplied arrows - string, cable & cam lean & synchronizing - rest spine and align - basic form training - dynamic (paper) tune - chronograph for speed, energy and momentum - 1st and 2nd axis level on sight - sight in 20 yard pin - 100% guaranteed installation on all parts.
Bow “Match Performance” Rebuilding
Match Performance Bow Tune $185.00

*accessories and parts extra (all documents included) set draw length* - draw weight - peep settings - arrow building and dynamic testing - string, cable & cam lean & synchronizing - rest spine and align - basic form training - dynamic (paper) tune - chronograph for speed, energy and momentum - 1st and 2nd axis level on sight - sight in 20 yard pin - 100% guaranteed installation on all parts

Exactly. It's not new. It's just rare. Still is. For a shop to be able to do that long-term you need to be in an area with above-average income AND substantial hunter/archer density. And you need to be able to incentivize the right employees. Generally guys who get a kick out of 3D and will work for poor salary plus discounts and free flagship bows.

Or...you need a passionate guy selling bows out of his garage. He's got low enough overhead that he can survive long enough to build a base and be helpful and profitable.

 

[Weldabeast]

Coming from a welding background I know that each individual person, with the machine set exactly the same, will have a weld that is slightly different. The way u hold the torch, the angle u hold the torch, the distance away from the material, and a bunch of other variables make each person weld different from the next......the first time I walked into a bow shop and the guy said "yeah, just leave it and I'll get it all tuned up and then I'll call u and u can come pick it up" I knew it was BS...how was he gonna tune the bow to me if he's shooting it? When I went to pick it up and I ask if that's it or am I gonna shoot, he says "it's all good to go"..then try to sell me some broadheads.... Psshhh I haven't been back since.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Coming from a welding background I know that each individual person, with the machine set exactly the same, will have a weld that is slightly different. The way u hold the torch, the angle u hold the torch, the distance away from the material, and a bunch of other variables make each person weld different from the next......the first time I walked into a bow shop and the guy said "yeah, just leave it and I'll get it all tuned up and then I'll call u and u can come pick it up" I knew it was BS...how was he gonna tune the bow to me if he's shooting it? When I went to pick it up and I ask if that's it or am I gonna shoot, he says "it's all good to go"..then try to sell me some broadheads.... Psshhh I haven't been back since.

In the shops defense, many of the people I had to tune bows for torqued the crap out of their bow and threw patterns instead of groups at a 20 yard range. Trying to tune a bow to them would have been like tuning a piano that fell out of the back of a truck going down the interstate.

Technically if a bow is set up to manufacturers specs, shooting the appropriately spined/weighted arrow, and the peep/kisser/whatever is in the right place for both shooters, then they should both be shooting a "tuned" bow. That bow should be and probably is optimized for maximum transfer of energy and consistency from shot-to-shot. Everybody shoots a rifle or shotgun a bit different. But if you went hunting with the rifle I sighted in you would kill deer unless one of us was an absolutely horrible but consistent shooter.

 

[Weldabeast]

In the shops defense, many of the people I had to tune bows for torqued the crap out of their bow and threw patterns instead of groups at a 20 yard range. Trying to tune a bow to them would have been like tuning a piano that fell out of the back of a truck going down the interstate.

Technically if a bow is set up to manufacturers specs, shooting the appropriately spined/weighted arrow, and the peep/kisser/whatever is in the right place for both shooters, then they should both be shooting a "tuned" bow. That bow should be and probably is optimized for maximum transfer of energy and consistency from shot-to-shot. Everybody shoots a rifle or shotgun a bit different. But if you went hunting with the rifle I sighted in you would kill deer unless one of us was an absolutely horrible but consistent shooter.

U shoot 1 eye open or 2

 

[Plebe]

Exactly. It's not new. It's just rare. Still is. For a shop to be able to do that long-term you need to be in an area with above-average income AND substantial hunter/archer density. And you need to be able to incentivize the right employees. Generally guys who get a kick out of 3D and will work for poor salary plus discounts and free flagship bows.

Or...you need a passionate guy selling bows out of his garage. He's got low enough overhead that he can survive long enough to build a base and be helpful and profitable.

Yep.

I had a lift line break years ago and a Gander Mountain employee basically let me press my bow, do work, and use the range to re-tune and sight-in for free, with some conversational oversight and tips. Gander was open while the specialty-shops were already closed for the day. I didn't expect much, but the girl working there knew her stuff. She was making and selling strings on the side and I read in the news that she went on to be a professional archer.

It's sometimes shop dependent and sometimes it comes down to the individual.

 

[Petrichor]

I hunt a medium to medium heavy arrow 515 grains. But in general I nah for it being good for the community. Forum arguments, retarded banter, guys running out to just buy something heavier with no idea what they are doing. Nah. I like the idea behind it, don’t like how the community has taken to it.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Yep.

I had a lift line break years ago and a Gander Mountain employee basically let me press my bow, do work, and use the range to re-tune and sight-in for free, with some conversational oversight and tips. Gander was open while the specialty-shops were already closed for the day. I didn't expect much, but the girl working there knew her stuff. She was making and selling strings on the side and I read in the news that she went on to be a professional archer.

It's sometimes shop dependent and sometimes it comes down to the individual.

I like to think I pleasantly surprised a few people. I know Uncle Mike (our retired old man who shot for Bear and Hoyt and guided for 15 years at Willow Point) did.

But we eventually got tired of the BS/money ratio.

@Weldabeast, it doesn't matter. I shoot one/two eyes open depending on light and how precise I'm trying to be. As long as we're both looking through the peep site or touching the kisser or whatever, and assuming we are letting the bow do what it wants to do, and assuming it is centershot correctly and not defective in some way, and it is shooting the correct arrow, we should have the same results.

If the bow is set correctly and we have different impacts/flight, one or both of us is doing something wrong. I guess the question is, if you sight in a rifle on a bench and it's on-target but you're jerking shots to the left off the bench... do you adjust for that by moving the site or learning not to jerk a trigger?

 

[Weldabeast]

I guess what I was trying to point out was exactly that ...everybody's a little different and the way I have the bow probably isn't set up square/plum/center shot because of my personal bad form grip whatever. I shot my friends bow and I was 8" left. Shot again and broke the first arrow....so the consistency is there but it just wasn't set right for me. I let another buddy shoot my bow and he was consistently grouping 6" right and 3 high. U a probably correct in everything u said but it can't be universal for everybody ever time

 

[Nutterbuster]

I guess what I was trying to point out was exactly that ...everybody's a little different and the way I have the bow probably isn't set up square/plum/center shot because of my personal bad form grip whatever. I shot my friends bow and I was 8" left. Shot again and broke the first arrow....so the consistency is there but it just wasn't set right for me. I let another buddy shoot my bow and he was consistently grouping 6" right and 3 high. U a probably correct in everything u said but it can't be universal for everybody ever time

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're getting 6-8" discrepancies at 20-40 yards coaching would probably be a good thing to look into unless the draw length just doesn't fit you or your buddy. You'll probably pick up bow performance (speed/energy, accuracy and better trajectory).

Way off topic now but howdy-ho. When you nock an arrow, can you line the string, the pins, and the tip of the arrow up? And have you ever had somebody stand behind you at draw and see how your string rolled off the cam?

Dirty secret. When I was in a shop if I picked up your bow and when the pins and string lined up the arrow was kicked way out one way or the other, I pretty much assumed you torqued the crap out of the bow or had some other form issue that let me know tuning your bow was going to be a headache. If I had time and you seemed pleasant, I'd try to coach you a bit. If not, I would do whatever I could to avoid you shooting through paper chasing a bullet hole that probably wasn't happening.

 

[CooterBrown]

I think since youtube had come around we average people that used to have to depend on the bow shop can youtube things to do to improve our accuracy.

 

[RamBam]

I switched to heavier. I think it’s a good Option if You choose to go that route. But secondly people need to be informed it’s not gods answer to a bad shot. I had a few non pass throughs with mechanicals and they were usually all destroyed after a shot. I’ve had a few deflect slightly on ribs and scapulas. This year I shot a buck and that arrow passed through ribs and right out the other shoulder just like I aimed and it was very quiet. Deer trotted for a few yards. Then walked and fell over. The beauty with high foc generally comes higher arrow weight. The personal gains for me was a quieter bow , less shot noise/impact , and a plan b for when I didn’t do my job right. Certainly not needed for whitetails but I’ll take any advantage and higher success rate I can get. I’ve made a few bad shots. The biggest thing the industry should push is get out. Learn your equipment and practice practice practice.

 

[kyler1945]

i think any topic that illustrates how reliably terrible human beings are at thinking statistically and about big numbers, is worth its weight in gold. So long as a few more fellers look at the whole thing and recognize it for what it is each time, and can think a little more clearly, it’s less likely we blow ourselves off this rock.

I am never not amazed at just how reliably bad we are at trying to reason through these topics. It has gotten more humorous and slightly less anxiety inducing over the years, I’ll say.

 

[gcr0003]

Hey, at least I'm a self-aware saddlehunter making beer money off of youtube and yanking people's chains by saying big bucks are stupid and anybody who says otherwise is selling you something, now buy my t-shirt!

did you finally make a fawn slayer shirt?

 

[gcr0003]

I think them there heavier and modiefied arras might encourage a few jabronies that they can take marginal shots and get away with them because the arrows will punch through anything. That might not be good idear

Tuning arrows so they fly well (similar to what is required for trad shooting), would generally be a good thing.

side note: if your rest and sight are set up right the only “tuning” you need to do on an arrow for a compound is not be under spined. If you want a heavier broad head than the standard 100/125gr, guess what? You’ll need a beefier spine. Any bow shop worth a hoot could get this set up for you in a matter minutes. It is fun to tinker though so I get it.

I’d agree that it’s just a fad or pendulum, not good or bad for the deer, hunters, or the community.

 

[Weldabeast]

I don't know...I started with a "tuned" bow and shot bareshafts thru the tuning process to get the arrows arriving square and plum them worked to get the broadheads hitting with field points...once at that point I just do what feels natural and shoot. The rest got a tweek or 5 so I assume it's not at center shot anymore and I had to raise/lower the d loop couple times. Obviously everyone can improve but I am happy with my accuracy....

Is an arrow with a higher foc percentage more forgiving? According to the smart people they are...I don't know for sure and cant prove anything but personally I have seen it to be true. The arrows come out paradox much faster.

Anyway....Ashby/RF good for archers but bad for debating with other archers...I don't care what others decide to do...and if I wanna build a thousand grain arrow why would it bother other people?

 

[Nutterbuster]

Obviously everyone can improve but I am happy with my accuracy....

Don't fix what isn't broken. If you're hitting and killing deer rock on.

I think them there heavier and modiefied arras might encourage a few jabronies that they can take marginal shots and get away with them because the arrows will punch through anything. That might not be good idear

And on the flip side of the coin faster arrows and bigger broadheads definitely encourage some bronies to get sloppy with respecting their max effective range and shot placement particulars because they're "shooting flat out to 50 yards and practically cutting that deer in half, may'un!"

Stupid will be stupid. Somebody has to live on the wrong end of the bell curve.