Did I missed something? Custom bowyers just jump up 20% overnight????

[GVDocHoliday]

I agree about used bows but my draw is 25 and a used now is 28. I'm to the point where I want my draw length on the bow. That and being a leftie really narrows the choices.

Your best bet is actually to NOT have your low draw length on the bow...because to do that, they'd also have put your draw weight @ that length. In some states, and I know for my wifes bow in Ontario for bear, the listed weight, regardless of the length, is what the weight is...and if there's a minimum draw weight necessary to be legal, you may fall short of that. Example....40@28 meets the requirements. 34@25 does not meet the requirements. They're the same bow.

 

[redsquirrel]

Keep the politics out of it guys or we're going to have to shut this down.

 

[katiesmom]

Your best bet is actually to NOT have your low draw length on the bow...because to do that, they'd also have put your draw weight @ that length. In some states, and I know for my wifes bow in Ontario for bear, the listed weight, regardless of the length, is what the weight is...and if there's a minimum draw weight necessary to be legal, you may fall short of that. Example....40@28 meets the requirements. 34@25 does not meet the requirements. They're the same bow.

I gotcha. My longbow is 43@25 and I love shooting it. My learner recurve, a Sage is 50@28 so I can get to about 43# at my draw length. I love shooting it as well. But what you say would really open up bow possibilities for me.

 

[Jammintree]

They are increasing the price to get more money because they believe people will perceive overall cost increases as normal, or (more likely) they are getting the squeeze from their raw material suppliers. If it is the latter, and the bowyers buy less from the suppliers due to getting fewer orders then the effect will trickle down to that level and correct the market. Some bowyers will fall by the wayside. In a free market system of competition that will happen and is normal.

Unfortunately the suppliers could care less about these kinds of small business. Mom and Pop artisans and craftspeople consume such small
Quantities of materials that their presence makes
No difference to manufacturers of wood, fiberglass and epoxy.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Unfortunately the suppliers could care less about these kinds of small business. Mom and Pop artisans and craftspeople consume such small
Quantities of materials that their presence makes
No difference to manufacturers of wood, fiberglass and epoxy.

If that is the case it is only a matter of time until they are simply priced out of business.

 

[HuumanCreed]

If that is the case it is only a matter of time until they are simply priced out of business.

Are we talking about the bowyers or the material suppliers? Because Big Jim mentioned many times that glass suppliers like Gordon are only producing bow making material as a courtesy/side hustle, they dont have to make them at all. In compared to the profit and volume of supplies they sell to other industry, they honestly wouldn't feel the impact if one day all bowyers stop ordering glass. I was very surprised at first when I heard this, but then I realized how small the market is for clear glass. That one of the core required material for bow making is a very minor industrial material.

Just throwing out unsupported numbers here, but let say a bowyer make 200 bows a year. They would need 4 sheets of glass per bow? So 800 sheet at $10 each. That's $8000. Top of my head, there are maybe.....100 bowyers in the US, and that might be a generous number. At most Gordon see an annual profit from the traditional bowyers is $800,000, and that is a VERY generous number. This is nothing compared to the millions they make from other industry....including the compound bow world.

 

[krub6b]

Are we talking about the bowyers or the material suppliers? Because Big Jim mentioned many times that glass suppliers like Gordon are only producing bow making material as a courtesy/side hustle, they dont have to make them at all. In compared to the profit and volume of supplies they sell to other industry, they honestly wouldn't feel the impact if one day all bowyers stop ordering glass. I was very surprised at first when I heard this, but then I realized how small the market is for clear glass. That one of the core required material for bow making is a very minor industrial material.

Just throwing out unsupported numbers here, but let say a bowyer make 200 bows a year. They would need 4 sheets of glass per bow? So 800 sheet at $10 each. That's $8000. Top of my head, there are maybe.....100 bowyers in the US, and that might be a generous number. At most Gordon see an annual profit from the traditional bowyers is $800,000, and that is a VERY generous number. This is nothing compared to the millions they make from other industry....including the compound bow world.

$800,000 is income not profit, so a generous margin of 60% leaves them with $480,000, split between glass manufactures and the reality their margin is much closer to 30% so $240,000

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Or bowyers will have to adapt their designs to incorporate commonly available and/or easily sourced materials. What come to mind are the bamboo backed Hill style longbows like John Shultz used to make. Man, I would love to have one of those.

 

[thedutchtouch]

This is a bit of a tangent, but how difficult/costly is it to create materials inhouse? Meaning the fiberglass etc mostly (not practical to grow your own trees)- can a DIYer (or smaller custom bowyer) buy loose stranded fiberglass and lay up their own layers? Or is that cost-prohibitive to an even greater degree?

 

[HuumanCreed]

This is a bit of a tangent, but how difficult/costly is it to create materials inhouse? Meaning the fiberglass etc mostly (not practical to grow your own trees)- can a DIYer (or smaller custom bowyer) buy loose stranded fiberglass and lay up their own layers? Or is that cost-prohibitive to an even greater degree?

From what I understand, good quality clear glass is very hard to produce. And you'll never know if there are imperfections until after the glass is made and UV lights is uses to inspect it. Even then, often imperfections appears AFTER the bow is made. Bowyers have discarded more then a few 80% finished bows because of this. This is why mass production bows are all black glass.

 

[Bigfoot522]

I was making takedowns with clear glass and veneers for right around $300 about six years ago.
It would take me around 40 hours of hand work shaping and tillering doing a one of process.

So if you pay an artist and a craftsman (which I never claimed to be) $25 hr. Plus materials and there you go.

I admit they have every possible sanding jig and shaper so they can save time but still, there is overhead and what not.

Another thing is the Old Mastercrafters and Bingham projects closed up making it harder for people to source materials to make their own.

 

[Phopkins]

And how would anyone make a living, paying the bills, heating a shop, making a second bow cause the 1st one had a flaw in the glass, save money for kids college, retirement, pay self-employment taxes on 25 bucks an hour?
I've seen these kinds of threads before. People can excited when a guy wants to make a real wage for a high skill job. The same guys often can't come up with enough money because they're busy with the same financial tasks of saving for retirement while paying their own bills.

I even saw a thread on another site some years ago where one poster couldn't believe the price of the bow. The builder should only do it for the love of the craft.
Even churches pay pastors. I've never understood some lines of reasoning.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

People will always come up with the money for something that is a priority for them. It's human nature. If they don't then it really isn't the priority, it is just a want. I came to understand this stark truth when I really thought about the implications that there are many thousands of people living on the street with no job, no roof over their head and don't know where their next meal is coming from, but they come up with $500 a week for drugs. Sure, it's an addiction but the addiction is the priority. They find the money one way or the other. When anyone says "I can't afford this or that" all it really means is that thing is not really the priority. That is not a bad thing. In many cases it just means your kids, spouse, mortgage, are a bigger priority than a new bow, or boat, or car, etc.

What we are really talking about here with custom bows is a want. Can you justify this want as a priority over other things, given a finite amount of income? This is where you get into the situation where something gets priced out of the market. Custom bowyers seem to be between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Bigfoot522]

That is my point.
$25 is not enough for any of them to not persue other vocations.

 

[HuumanCreed]

And how would anyone make a living, paying the bills, heating a shop, making a second bow cause the 1st one had a flaw in the glass, save money for kids college, retirement, pay self-employment taxes on 25 bucks an hour?
I've seen these kinds of threads before. People can excited when a guy wants to make a real wage for a high skill job. The same guys often can't come up with enough money because they're busy with the same financial tasks of saving for retirement while paying their own bills.

I even saw a thread on another site some years ago where one poster couldn't believe the price of the bow. The builder should only do it for the love of the craft.
Even churches pay pastors. I've never understood some lines of reasoning.

I don't think you'll find many on this site that think anyone should work for free. Keeping politic out of this, my original purpose was to find out if something happened recently that made such a big increase in prices for all bowyers. I understand Bingham recently close shop, but I didn't think full time bowyers were so depending on them for material.

I'm always on a look out for a good deal, but I'm not against paying for quality. My concern was that smaller bowyers are pricing themselves out of work because their prices are almost matching the bigger bowyers. I used Maddog Archery as a perfect example. He tried for a long time to keep price down on his bows, but he just recently retire because it was not possible to keep doing business without raising cost.

I'm saving up for a custom bow. I usually want to support local small bowyers when I can. But since now all of them are around the same prices, I'm opening by options to bigger bowyers.

 

[GCTerpfan]

I don't think you'll find many on this site that think anyone should work for free. Keeping politic out of this, my original purpose was to find out if something happened recently that made such a big increase in prices for all bowyers. I understand Bingham recently close shop, but I didn't think full time bowyers were so depending on them for material.

I'm always on a look out for a good deal, but I'm not against paying for quality. My concern was that smaller bowyers are pricing themselves out of work because their prices are almost matching the bigger bowyers. I used Maddog Archery as a perfect example. He tried for a long time to keep price down on his bows, but he just recently retire because it was not possible to keep doing business without raising cost.

I'm saving up for a custom bow. I usually want to support local small bowyers when I can. But since now all of them are around the same prices, I'm opening by options to bigger bowyers.

There’s really no such a thing as a big custom bowyer. Even the ‘big’ guys like Black Widow have less than 10 employees. Regardless of who you buy from your supporting a small family business.

 

[HuumanCreed]

There’s really no such a thing as a big custom bowyer. Even the ‘big’ guys like Black Widow have less than 10 employees. Regardless of who you buy from your supporting a small family business.

Hmm...that is a good point. I forgot about that. Big business is the world of compound bows, there is no middle ground/class in traditional bows. I think? Maybe VPA or other metal riser makers which @GCTerpfan hates.

 

[GCTerpfan]

Big business is the world of compound bows, there is no middle ground/class in traditional bows. I think?

I can't think of any. You have companies that mass produced single sting bows but, many of them also produce compounds. When you get into custom bowyers all of the ones that I can think of are small, single shop, family operations.

 

[TreeCreep]

this made me curious as I just received a 2024 Black Widow catalog. A PCH II was $1200 in my old 2022 catalog.
2024 is $1350. Seems about in line with a lot of items and less than groceries, niche hunting gear, and other stuff for my kids. The more I go down this rabbit hole the more I get the cost attached to customs.

used ILF should stay approachable, if price is keeping anyone on the sideline.

 

[Phopkins]

I don't think you'll find many on this site that think anyone should work for free. Keeping politic out of this, my original purpose was to find out if something happened recently that made such a big increase in prices for all bowyers. I understand Bingham recently close shop, but I didn't think full time bowyers were so depending on them for material.

I'm always on a look out for a good deal, but I'm not against paying for quality. My concern was that smaller bowyers are pricing themselves out of work because their prices are almost matching the bigger bowyers. I used Maddog Archery as a perfect example. He tried for a long time to keep price down on his bows, but he just recently retire because it was not possible to keep doing business without raising cost.

I'm saving up for a custom bow. I usually want to support local small bowyers when I can. But since now all of them are around the same prices, I'm opening by options to bigger bowyers.

I didn't mean to imply you were decrying price increases. I did mean to say that there are a portion of folks in trad archery who think the only reason to make bows, arrows or other handmade products is the love of the sport. I've seen that thought process to much. Starving artists I guess, LOL.