Tree Stand Harness

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Can you explain your post to me a bit more?

He’s stating that the rope access technicians (I am assuming he’s referring to arborists that work on live trees and not mountain rescue workers (many states do not allow gaf entry on trees that are staying up) but the rope climbing crews connect their back up fall lines to their front connection points rather than the center of the back attachments on their FBH because falls are common in tree work (much like line work) and recovery is easier from a front connection point. But he is agreeing that force injury probability is greater on that connection compared to a dorsal connection.

 

[John RB]

1. I believe it's the responsibility of every climber and every equipment manufacturer to strive to eliminate both: 1) the possibility of a fall and 2) of the climber getting stuck in a tree after a mishap like a slip or failure of a component such as a stand, stick or step or aider. Assume that will happen to you multiple times in your career and promise yourself it won't be a problem.

2. I appreciate the perspective of a rope access techician, but our job is to NEVER need one. Sure, a FAH with chest straps and back connector is best for a fall. But I don't want to fall. Falls hurt. So just make it impossible to fall.

3. Ensuring that and our own general safety comes down to just 3 things 1) always be properly tied in 2) always have zero or just a few inches of slack, never more than a foot. 3) have a rappel plan that you can execute after any mishap and with nothing under your feet.

4. Getting knocked out? Well, a falling dead branch from the canopy could knock us out, but if that's a concern, we should have a helmet. But getting knocked out from a fall after a stand collapse isn't possible if we followed the rules above. I have tested that I can absorb and recover from a 9inch fall which is about the max slack I have ever allowed.

5. Rappel is easy. It can be practiced at ground height. I learned to rappel in my basement which has a 7ft ceiling.

6. I met up with my closest hunting buddy this year to ask him about how he uses his FAH. He always uses it but he couldn't even find his suspension relief strap. He never used it or carried it. He didn't understand the risk. He had no idea how he would get down with nothing underfoot. That's all I needed to know. Our setup needs to be foolproof. I bought him a saddle the next day. I showed him how to get down.

7. I looked at the link that CanopyStalker pasted above. Did ya see the part that says "one time use only"? How are we supposed to test and be confident that our system works if we have to throw it away after the 1st test? And what good is a system that's only protecting us when we are at height? We need to be protected the whole time, including ascent and descent. There are plenty of people who are lined up to sell us something if they can convince us we can use it. But it's our job to think it through... think of everything which could possibly happen and decide if we're ready for it... or how to eliminate the possibility of it happening.

8. The mere need for Suspension relief in a system shows it has failure modes I am not interested in. That sounds like a situation when i would rappel to safety. The attachment point way up over the back of our head... not interested. Now I need to operate a knife near my head to cut myself out in order to rappel? No thanks. I like my attachment point where i can easily access and control it.

9. Anyone who thinks a Linemans Belt or a FAH is a good plan chickens out when they are challenged to a round of the WHISTLE TEST game. It's been part of climb safety training forever: I'll go first... I climb the tree and you can blow the whistle 10 times. When you do, i let go with my hands and try to fall sideways, simulating the unexpected... but of course, I don't go anywhere and can always get to ground and safety... I have no slack and a rappel plan... nothing to cut myself on. Then it's my turn with the whistle... you get the idea. Everyone is an expert until it's time to get your legs ripped open by a sharp stick or get stuck on a FAH.

10. I didn't write this with my thumbs because I wanted to debate. I wrote it because an increasing number of my saddle brothers and sisters, actually GET IT. Your comments are much more educated than they were 2 yrs ago for certain. Some are reading and nodding... some are thinking. One at a time. Remember: Dont ask the guys who haven't had a problem with it. Ask the ones who have. Ask a rope rescue tech... not the salesperson who will say anything to get a sale. And when ya get safe, then go knock some sense into YOUR best friend. He's not gonna listen to me. -jrb



JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

1. I believe it's the responsibility of every climber and every equipment manufacturer to strive to eliminate both: 1) the possibility of a fall and 2) of the climber getting stuck in a tree after a mishap like a slip or failure of a component such as a stand, stick or step or aider. Assume that will happen to you multiple times in your career and promise yourself it won't be a problem.

2. I appreciate the perspective of a rope access techician, but our job is to NEVER need one. Sure, a FAH with chest straps and back connector is best for a fall. But I don't want to fall. Falls hurt. So just make it impossible to fall.

3. Ensuring that and our own general safety comes down to just 3 things 1) always be properly tied in 2) always have zero or just a few inches of slack, never more than a foot. 3) have a rappel plan that you can execute after any mishap and with nothing under your feet.

4. Getting knocked out? Well, a falling dead branch from the canopy could knock us out, but if that's a concern, we should have a helmet. But getting knocked out from a fall after a stand collapse isn't possible if we followed the rules above. I have tested that I can absorb and recover from a 9inch fall which is about the max slack I have ever allowed.

5. Rappel is easy. It can be practiced at ground height. I learned to rappel in my basement which has a 7ft ceiling.

6. I met up with my closest hunting buddy this year to ask him about how he uses his FAH. He always uses it but he couldn't even find his suspension relief strap. He never used it or carried it. He didn't understand the risk. He had no idea how he would get down with nothing underfoot. That's all I needed to know. Our setup needs to be foolproof. I bought him a saddle the next day. I showed him how to get down.

7. I looked at the link that CanopyStalker pasted above. Did ya see the part that says "one time use only"? How are we supposed to test and be confident that our system works if we have to throw it away after the 1st test? And what good is a system that's only protecting us when we are at height? We need to be protected the whole time, including ascent and descent. There are plenty of people who are lined up to sell us something if they can convince us we can use it. But it's our job to think it through... think of everything which could possibly happen and decide if we're ready for it... or how to eliminate the possibility of it happening.

8. The mere need for Suspension relief in a system shows it has failure modes I am not interested in. That sounds like a situation when i would rappel to safety. The attachment point way up over the back of our head... not interested. Now I need to operate a knife near my head to cut myself out in order to rappel? No thanks. I like my attachment point where i can easily access and control it.

9. Anyone who thinks a Linemans Belt or a FAH is a good plan chickens out when they are challenged to a round of the WHISTLE TEST game. It's been part of climb safety training forever: I'll go first... I climb the tree and you can blow the whistle 10 times. When you do, i let go with my hands and try to fall sideways, simulating the unexpected... but of course, I don't go anywhere and can always get to ground and safety... I have no slack and a rappel plan... nothing to cut myself on. Then it's my turn with the whistle... you get the idea. Everyone is an expert until it's time to get your legs ripped open by a sharp stick or get stuck on a FAH.

10. I didn't write this with my thumbs because I wanted to debate. I wrote it because an increasing number of my saddle brothers and sisters, actually GET IT. Your comments are much more educated than they were 2 yrs ago for certain. Some are reading and nodding... some are thinking. One at a time. Remember: Dont ask the guys who haven't had a problem with it. Ask the ones who have. Ask a rope rescue tech... not the salesperson who will say anything to get a sale. And when ya get safe, then go knock some sense into YOUR best friend. He's not gonna listen to me. -jrb



JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

John if you read your saddle and quite possibly your other climbing gear, they also say retire immediately after dynamic loading… how would someone test their system for recovery after a dynamic load if they have to throw it away after the 1st test? Practicing recovery at ground level from a FBH is every bit as necessary as practicing using a saddle at ground level. Or practicing tying knots before using them… its the end users responsibility to use the system as designed and to learn safety that pertains to it.

I also agree that coming as close to slack free as possible is necessary and so is having rope to get down in the event of an emergency, but again this post is about utilizing a hang on stand and the type of harness necessary for such use. It is nearly impossible to fully utilize a hang on stand or a ladder stand in the manner we use them without introducing some slack. Especially if your back is to the tree and your connection point is in front of you…. If a catastrophic failure occurs on the stand that’s a fall even if it’s only a foot of slack, and it’s not what your saddle was designed for. The whip around effect on that front attachment is going to hurt far worst and I am guessing you’ve never seen someone fall face first in a saddle or saw how that distribution of weight then becomes applied… Suggesting that a saddle is the better option for a hang on stand or a ladder stand is reckless at best and completely dangerous at worst… In post number 3, you say “always be properly tied in” that statement alone would mean you don’t sit forward facing on a tree stand while using a saddle as your saddles tie in point is forward facing. That statement alone in the context of this post is contradicting. Now I can agree on your other points of contention though. Again I am not saying that saddles aren’t safe. I’m also not disagreeing that being on a lead rope and managing slack is the safest course of action. I’m simply saying that in the context that the original post was made which is using a .75 hang on stand, that a pure saddle with a front connection is not the safest means of attachment in the event of a dynamic event.

 

[Cbigbear]

It happened fast didn’t it? I see a lot of guys watched ol CBI bear’s you tube video about falling in a RCH and in every single example he gave was a no slack expected fall where he could react. Most people don’t have time to react in a fall until after the actual fall has stopped.

I would love to see someone do a video where they are blind folded and sitting on a stand and someone quietly cuts the strap…. While you’re still expecting a fall, you won’t know when it’s happening and that would be way closer to how someone would react in real life. I won’t do it because I like my health but maybe one of these younger and confident you tube guys will give it a go???

I’m glad I happened by this post. I was wondering why I was getting comments on an 11yr old video, on a YouTube account I don’t even have the log-in for.

I have matured since that video - hell lets be real I just got old. I was testing at 18’, with no one around, & no form of communication. I was extremely confident in my setup/abilities and if someone would have agreed to climb up & chop the stand strap I would have rode it out.

I still use a similar setup today with a XOP retrograde. I manage slack & mindful of my tether height, but it’s a calculated risk. I’m fully aware a failure or slip on under managed tether length will likely lead to a severe injury or death. I’m also concerned about the numerous 2am, 2 1/2hr drives I take on the interstate every hunting season. I’m confident in my driving abilities, but others on the interstate at that time period are more than questionable. I wear a seatbelt & stay alert to oncoming & rear traffic and roll on same as wearing my RCH with my hang-on.

So in my few years (again who I’m a fooling many years) of climbing both in tree work and as a hunter, I’ve learn it’s more about the person vs the equipment. Some are risk adverse and some seekers, some athletic and some not, some flexible & others can’t touch their toes. Trust me DO NOT put blind faith in equipment, be honest with yourself & know your abilities & attitude.

 

[TreeRecon]

I understand. And I am a minimal slack (rope entries is my hunting preference). I was simply stating that the connection point does matter. The original post was asking about using a hang on stand in conjunction with some form of saddle or FBH…. For what it’s worth, it’s nice having another trained climber on the forum. I really do enjoy your input on these posts, so please don’t take my responses as any form personal attack.

Likewise and it was not taken that way at all Sir.

 

[TreeRecon]

He’s stating that the rope access technicians (I am assuming he’s referring to arborists that work on live trees and not mountain rescue workers (many states do not allow gaf entry on trees that are staying up) but the rope climbing crews connect their back up fall lines to their front connection points rather than the center of the back attachments on their FBH because falls are common in tree work (much like line work) and recovery is easier from a front connection point. But he is agreeing that force injury probability is greater on that connection compared to a dorsal connection.

Exactly. Not common, but in some instances you can use a FBH for tree work. You would have two separate lines. One solely for backup. That would attach to your chest

You would then have your primary line on your ventral/center hip area. A fall would be caught by your backup line. You'd then need to "slack" the backup line so you can get back on your primary connection. It's as simple as tying a knot in the backup line, big enough for your foot to fit in, so you can stand up. Or you can just attach some type of ascender. It sounds like a lot but it's pretty simple actually

I've hunted with a backup a few times. I use a Duck R

Same rules apply. Keep slack to a minimum in both systems

 

[BTaylor]

I’m glad I happened by this post. I was wondering why I was getting comments on an 11yr old video, on a YouTube account I don’t even have the log-in for.

I have matured since that video - hell lets be real I just got old. I was testing at 18’, with no one around, & no form of communication. I was extremely confident in my setup/abilities and if someone would have agreed to climb up & chop the stand strap I would have rode it out.

I still use a similar setup today with a XOP retrograde. I manage slack & mindful of my tether height, but it’s a calculated risk. I’m fully aware a failure or slip on under managed tether length will likely lead to a severe injury or death. I’m also concerned about the numerous 2am, 2 1/2hr drives I take on the interstate every hunting season. I’m confident in my driving abilities, but others on the interstate at that time period are more than questionable. I wear a seatbelt & stay alert to oncoming & rear traffic and roll on same as wearing my RCH with my hang-on.

So in my few years (again who I’m a fooling many years) of climbing both in tree work and as a hunter, I’ve learn it’s more about the person vs the equipment. Some are risk adverse and some seekers, some athletic and some not, some flexible & others can’t touch their toes. Trust me DO NOT put blind faith in equipment, be honest with yourself & know your abilities & attitude.

This hits real close to home. I think back on what was acceptable risk back in the day and honestly at the time not even really considered as risk, then compare that to today after having several friends get injured in falls and having several close calls myself. I may not be the safest out there now but I am WAY more mindful of the situations I put myself in and how I do so and never take more risk than I am wiling too.

 

[TreeRecon]

@raisins Sorry for the poor quality. But the left is the backup on the chest. Right side is the descender connected to the ventral/center area. Obviously overkill for saddle hunting, but gives you some idea of how to incorporate backups. I rarely use this harness.

 

[TreeRecon]

I run two bridges on my hunting saddle. Normally I just use a second descender and second line if I want a backup. If you want a TRUE backup device, they make this

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I’m glad I happened by this post. I was wondering why I was getting comments on an 11yr old video, on a YouTube account I don’t even have the log-in for.

I have matured since that video - hell lets be real I just got old. I was testing at 18’, with no one around, & no form of communication. I was extremely confident in my setup/abilities and if someone would have agreed to climb up & chop the stand strap I would have rode it out.

I still use a similar setup today with a XOP retrograde. I manage slack & mindful of my tether height, but it’s a calculated risk. I’m fully aware a failure or slip on under managed tether length will likely lead to a severe injury or death. I’m also concerned about the numerous 2am, 2 1/2hr drives I take on the interstate every hunting season. I’m confident in my driving abilities, but others on the interstate at that time period are more than questionable. I wear a seatbelt & stay alert to oncoming & rear traffic and roll on same as wearing my RCH with my hang-on.

So in my few years (again who I’m a fooling many years) of climbing both in tree work and as a hunter, I’ve learn it’s more about the person vs the equipment. Some are risk adverse and some seekers, some athletic and some not, some flexible & others can’t touch their toes. Trust me DO NOT put blind faith in equipment, be honest with yourself & know your abilities & attitude.

I am glad you said all this. And again I didn’t mention the video as anything negative, I was simply stating that it was unrealistic for guys to expect that would be the result in falls. As you said people and the risks they are willing to take are the single biggest contributing factor. Thanks for commenting on this post @Cbigbear and hopefully all is going well

 

[raisins]

@raisins Sorry for the poor quality. But the left is the backup on the chest. Right side is the descender connected to the ventral/center area. Obviously overkill for saddle hunting, but gives you some idea of how to incorporate backups. I rarely use this harness.

Something like that might be great for a regular tree stand though.

 

[Cbigbear]

I am glad you said all this. And again I didn’t mention the video as anything negative, I was simply stating that it was unrealistic for guys to expect that would be the result in falls. As you said people and the risks they are willing to take are the single biggest contributing factor. Thanks for commenting on this post @Cbigbear and hopefully all is going well

Doing well, just licking my wounds from the tail kicking a couple bucks gave me this year.

 

[Still Kicking]

I think it's AWESOME to have this site and the forums people can use to educate themselves to minimize injuries or even death. Many of us whom were here when the earth was still cooling took incredible risks climbing without the proper knowledge or equipment. Kudos to the helpers!

 

[TreeRecon]

I think it's AWESOME to have this site and the forums people can use to educate themselves to minimize injuries or even death. Many of us whom were here when the earth was still cooling took incredible risks climbing without the proper knowledge or equipment. Kudos to the helpers!

Agree. Lots of knowledgeable guys on here. No egos either

 

[GeoFish]

Now someone needs to make a quality Mondo style harness.
I can dream can't I?

 

[TreeRecon]

Now someone needs to make a quality Mondo style harness.
I can dream can't I?

Kong X-Five Harness

Shop for helmets, harnesses, rope, headlamps, carabiners, and other gear for sport and professional from Petzl, Black Diamond, and others.

www.karstsports.com

 

[John RB]

John if you read your saddle and quite possibly your other climbing gear, they also say retire immediately after dynamic loading… how would someone test their system for recovery after a dynamic load if they have to throw it away after the 1st test? Practicing recovery at ground level from a FBH is every bit as necessary as practicing using a saddle at ground level. Or practicing tying knots before using them… its the end users responsibility to use the system as designed and to learn safety that pertains to it.

I also agree that coming as close to slack free as possible is necessary and so is having rope to get down in the event of an emergency, but again this post is about utilizing a hang on stand and the type of harness necessary for such use. It is nearly impossible to fully utilize a hang on stand or a ladder stand in the manner we use them without introducing some slack. Especially if your back is to the tree and your connection point is in front of you…. If a catastrophic failure occurs on the stand that’s a fall even if it’s only a foot of slack, and it’s not what your saddle was designed for. The whip around effect on that front attachment is going to hurt far worst and I am guessing you’ve never seen someone fall face first in a saddle or saw how that distribution of weight then becomes applied… Suggesting that a saddle is the better option for a hang on stand or a ladder stand is reckless at best and completely dangerous at worst… In post number 3, you say “always be properly tied in” that statement alone would mean you don’t sit forward facing on a tree stand while using a saddle as your saddles tie in point is forward facing. That statement alone in the context of this post is contradicting. Now I can agree on your other points of contention though. Again I am not saying that saddles aren’t safe. I’m also not disagreeing that being on a lead rope and managing slack is the safest course of action. I’m simply saying that in the context that the original post was made which is using a .75 hang on stand, that a pure saddle with a front connection is not the safest means of attachment in the event of a dynamic event.

My position is that it doesn't matter whether we have climbed a tree with sticks or steps or a ladder or a rope. It doesn't matter what our feet are on. It doesn't matter where we are facing. We simply always need to be tied in, low slack and high reliability path to ground. A saddle provides that. To my knowledge, a conventional FAH only addresses the fall. I have spoken to rope rescue personnel who have recovered the suspension victims. That's why these articles are written: always be ready to phone a friend.

Help! I Fell From my Treestand. Now What?

Don’t panic! Here’s what to do if you fall from your treestand.

bowhuntersunited.com

It is my position that if we have managed our slack profile down to inches, our bodies and a well made saddle will absorb a fall of inches (less than a foot) and FF
Also, I would like to understand what is your definition of what constitutes a "dynamic event"? Techically ANY fall is a dynamic event. But I don't know anybody who would retire a saddle after a one inch fall? Would you? Two inches? Sitting down abruptly is a dynamic event and generates similar force. What is YOUR definition of a permissible fall distance in a saddle and in a FAH? I can't find that anywhere. And I have been searching.

My position is that we should strive for zero slack and in a worst case, if our footing collapsed, ensure that we can never fall more than a foot in a saddle, with FF
Also, the details about how I sit in a tree stand in a saddle are all covered in the above video, minute 10: when i sit with my back to the tree, i am on no more than a couple inches. Just enough to allow my head to turn.




JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[John RB]

My last post was supposed to say "fall factor less than one". For some reason tapatalk didn't like the symbol used.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[GeoFish]

Kong X-Five Harness

Shop for helmets, harnesses, rope, headlamps, carabiners, and other gear for sport and professional from Petzl, Black Diamond, and others.

www.karstsports.com

Not available in Mossy Oak camo?

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Not available in Mossy Oak camo?

Which pattern?