A Thermals Puzzle

[neonomad]

The 100 acre farm I grew up on has been getting the best of me for 20ish years, all advice appreciated.

To our backs (south) is a lot of mixed Ag, some farm houses, some old field, small timber.

In front of us (north) is a big wooded river valley about 100’ deep in topography, with about 4 spots the deer can ascend… this is where almost all of the bucks live and they climb that hill most evenings to eat my food plots, the farmers crops, and do other deer things. Ambushing them seems like a good idea until you find the thermals sucking air right down that slope to their noses in the evening. Diving into the river valley in the morning sounds fun until you find the wind swirling all over the place when the sun comes up. Just about the time they might be headed your way in the morning from out of the Ag fields, the valley is starting to push your scent up toward their paths down the hill.

Any thoughts at all on some strategies to try?

Here’s one thought I have… evening hunt, go halfway down the slope and go up a tree about 30’… hope the down thermal stays above their heads until they’re far enough up the hill, just before dark, to get a shot. But man I’ve watched air just dive to ground in that place. I dropped some milkweed from a stand at the top of the hill, it went near to the ground, against the prevailing wind, down the 90’ slope, and cruised the river valley at head height.

 

[Jtaylor]

Sneak in the back door to their bedding? Hunt in the morning with rising thermals and correct time of day? You could wait em out till pre rut/rut when they move all day. Hunt the field edges where they're coming out to feed? Hunt higher or lower until your thermals are to your liking? Your halfway down the slope idea seems like a good idea too if the thermals/wind is right! I have one spot I hunt that's similar that really only works on a rare east wind and when the wind overpowers the thermals. Good luck, I'll be interested in what may work for ya!

 

[Deerkins]

Just going off that info, I’d try moving closer to the ag fields in morning from the back side. That way you’re taking advantage of early morning thermals on the warming ridges and closer to where they’re coming from, hoping to connect before the swirling winds pick up.
That’s a monster buck, good luck

 

[Bowmanmike]

Is the river big enough to use as access? Thermals should follow the river most of the time,maybe hunt right along the edge of the water?

 

[Deerkins]

Another scenario that may exist in your spot, but would need some detailed scouting is to keep an eye out for where deer make a sharp turn in their travel, often to get around something, like a pond, hole in fence, or group of downed trees, the deviation in their travel can pull them into a tight area, where you can get a wind advantage. Hope that makes sense..

 

[neonomad]

Sneak in the back door to their bedding? Hunt in the morning with rising thermals and correct time of day? You could wait em out till pre rut/rut when they move all day. Hunt the field edges where they're coming out to feed? Hunt higher or lower until your thermals are to your liking? Your halfway down the slope idea seems like a good idea too if the thermals/wind is right! I have one spot I hunt that's similar that really only works on a rare east wind and when the wind overpowers the thermals. Good luck, I'll be interested in what may work for ya!

Agree days with higher winds improve odds, it’s kinda funny how when you’re looking for that during season it can be a rare thing. Same here, an east wind is good too. If you’re sitting in a valley on a morning, do you think sitting high in a tree sometimes allows scent to just lift up reliably? Guess I need to start keeping a milkweed log, but overall agree I need to take a few risks each season. The best bedding spot happens to be across the river and we don’t own it. If you can imagine, when they do bed on our side, let’s say you sneak up the river and get set up down there and wait for the deer to return, just as it gets to shooting light you start to feel your wind pushing right in the direction theyd be coming from. It’s interesting how challenging a small piece can be.

 

[neonomad]

Just going off that info, I’d try moving closer to the ag fields in morning from the back side. That way you’re taking advantage of early morning thermals on the warming ridges and closer to where they’re coming from, hoping to connect before the swirling winds pick up.
That’s a monster buck, good luck

Good thought, especially if I start to see some halfway decent daylight movement in the morning, being at the top of the valley near the Ag not a bad thought. These deer are dang nocturnal, relatively simple patterns they’ve been repeating for a long time, but anybody hanging out later in the fields yeah would be an opportunity.

 

[neonomad]

Is the river big enough to use as access? Thermals should follow the river most of the time,maybe hunt right along the edge of the water?

Nothing is simple, I used to be able to hunt just across the river, posted 125 yards off great bedding over there, river right behind me… but that land sold. On our side they just don’t seem to cruise the edge much, I think primarily because of steelhead fishermen. And if they’re coming from across the river, which they often are, the river in that case in the evening is pulling scent from your stand out to the river they’re coming across. On a clouded low wind rut morning yes maybe you could come in from the river, say 50 yards, still
hoping the river to be drawing wind back from you, looking into the wooded river flats. Appreciate it.

 

[neonomad]

Another scenario that may exist in your spot, but would need some detailed scouting is to keep an eye out for where deer make a sharp turn in their travel, often to get around something, like a pond, hole in fence, or group of downed trees, the deviation in their travel can pull them into a tight area, where you can get a wind advantage. Hope that makes sense..

Got it, will keep this in mind.

 

[Jtaylor]

If you’re sitting in a valley on a morning, do you think sitting high in a tree sometimes allows scent to just lift up reliably?

Probably not reliably but maybe it could be enough to get it off their main trail? I've waited until rifle season too on unpressured private land for the right opportunity. I can take a heck of a lot longer shot and keep more of my scent out of an area using a rifle and sitting a couple hundred yards away than within 20 yds. with a bow.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

The 100 acre farm I grew up on has been getting the best of me for 20ish years, all advice appreciated.

To our backs (south) is a lot of mixed Ag, some farm houses, some old field, small timber.

In front of us (north) is a big wooded river valley about 100’ deep in topography, with about 4 spots the deer can ascend… this is where almost all of the bucks live and they climb that hill most evenings to eat my food plots, the farmers crops, and do other deer things. Ambushing them seems like a good idea until you find the thermals sucking air right down that slope to their noses in the evening. Diving into the river valley in the morning sounds fun until you find the wind swirling all over the place when the sun comes up. Just about the time they might be headed your way in the morning from out of the Ag fields, the valley is starting to push your scent up toward their paths down the hill.

Any thoughts at all on some strategies to try?

Here’s one thought I have… evening hunt, go halfway down the slope and go up a tree about 30’… hope the down thermal stays above their heads until they’re far enough up the hill, just before dark, to get a shot. But man I’ve watched air just dive to ground in that place. I dropped some milkweed from a stand at the top of the hill, it went near to the ground, against the prevailing wind, down the 90’ slope, and cruised the river valley at head height.

Lets face it, some properties are just plain hard to hunt. There's a good reason your deer are doing what they do. They are using the wind to their best advantage for safety.
I'd like to see a topo map of your terrain. Thermal behavior exists in every area but in some areas it's a lot more complicated than in other areas. I like to compare the mountainous areas along Interstate 79 in N WVa to the mountains of central PA. The WVa mountains are a complicated series of humps, whereas the Pa mountains are mostly long, parallel ridges and valleys. They both have thermal activity but the WVa thermals are gonna be way more complex than the big wide valleys in central Pa. Pretty basic knowledge that thermals are a product of heating and cooling of the air but it gets complicated when certain slopes are in a heating thermal while the adjacent area is still in the shade (cooling thermal). On thermal will effect the adjacent thermal and it actually changes as the sun gets higher ( or lower in the evening) which causes contrasting heating and cooling...one area has rising thermals and just a few yards away (in the shady slope) the thermals are still falling.
You'll find that themals will be much stronger and more complex in clear weather as opposed to cloudy weather.

Something else that I look for are substantial "bends" in deer movement corridors. The outside of the bend can be a weak spot in a deer's use of wind patterns. Bends in movement patterns can be created by abrupt changes in terrain, or cover changes, housing or other buildings, ag activities, highways, etc. Search out those bends, and hopefully there will be a perfect tree in just the right spot.

 

[Nutterbuster]

The 100 acre farm I grew up on has been getting the best of me for 20ish years, all advice appreciated.

1st thought is if I had been trying anything for 20 years, I'd have succeeded if it was doable. Easy answer to your dilemma is quit fooling with it and go somewhere else.

2nd thought is gun hunt it and clear a shooting lane so you can shoot them while they're still far enough away that they don't think you're a threat. Deer still don't know that projectiles are a thing and anything not in "dash out and bite me" range usually doesn't really register as a threat. At least not in time to save them.

3rd thought is wait for a steady, strong wind that overrides the thermals and makes it worth burning sitting time.

4th thought is show a buddy with nice hunting property pics of that buck and generously let him hunt your "best stand" in exchange for like treatment on his land.

5th thought is if you love hunting the place more than killing deer, put up a permanent stand in the most scenic location and bring plenty of coffee and a book and a cookie.

 

[neonomad]

Lets face it, some properties are just plain hard to hunt. There's a good reason your deer are doing what they do. They are using the wind to their best advantage for safety.
I'd like to see a topo map of your terrain. Thermal behavior exists in every area but in some areas it's a lot more complicated than in other areas. I like to compare the mountainous areas along Interstate 79 in N WVa to the mountains of central PA. The WVa mountains are a complicated series of humps, whereas the Pa mountains are mostly long, parallel ridges and valleys. They both have thermal activity but the WVa thermals are gonna be way more complex than the big wide valleys in central Pa. Pretty basic knowledge that thermals are a product of heating and cooling of the air but it gets complicated when certain slopes are in a heating thermal while the adjacent area is still in the shade (cooling thermal). On thermal will effect the adjacent thermal and it actually changes as the sun gets higher ( or lower in the evening) which causes contrasting heating and cooling...one area has rising thermals and just a few yards away (in the shady slope) the thermals are still falling.
You'll find that themals will be much stronger and more complex in clear weather as opposed to cloudy weather.

Something else that I look for are substantial "bends" in deer movement corridors. The outside of the bend can be a weak spot in a deer's use of wind patterns. Bends in movement patterns can be created by abrupt changes in terrain, or cover changes, housing or other buildings, ag activities, highways, etc. Search out those bends, and hopefully there will be a perfect tree in just the right spot.

 

[neonomad]

1st thought is if I had been trying anything for 20 years, I'd have succeeded if it was doable. Easy answer to your dilemma is quit fooling with it and go somewhere else.

2nd thought is gun hunt it and clear a shooting lane so you can shoot them while they're still far enough away that they don't think you're a threat. Deer still don't know that projectiles are a thing and anything not in "dash out and bite me" range usually doesn't really register as a threat. At least not in time to save them.

3rd thought is wait for a steady, strong wind that overrides the thermals and makes it worth burning sitting time.

4th thought is show a buddy with nice hunting property pics of that buck and generously let him hunt your "best stand" in exchange for like treatment on his land.

5th thought is if you love hunting the place more than killing deer, put up a permanent stand in the most scenic location and bring plenty of coffee and a book and a cookie.

Agree on all points, whenever I see folks bash easy private land hunting I want to invite em here to try.

Admittedly if I was still in my 20s (with a lot more time) knowing what I know now I’d be more confident in scoring here. It’s the combination of a difficult property, and the time invested. But I’m also a glutton for punishment and finding a few tricks that work would be highly satisfying.

I would often be better off hunting somewhere else, and some years I do, but the home farm always lures me back. I did take a 180” across the river to the northwest in 2011, in a county with very near zero bucks that size.

 

[woodsdog2]

I realize there are a lot of assumptions with this but try and Locate a spring seep, slight rise, rock outcropping something you can see over and shoot over maybe 1/3 of the way down that ridge where their trail is coming up near it to a bench or flat just before the ridgeline. Ideally, the deer trail bends around the seep to some extent. The seep due to temperature differences will generally pull the thermals too it so you have somewhat of a thermal advantage around it. Typically the deer don't just travel straight up or down so try to locate this terrain feature (seep, outcropping, rise, etc.) from some lateral distance from their general bedding ( you don't want them to bed just below the seep etc.) Depending on the distances you can have two potential decent stand locations to try and intercept them working their way up to the fields on top. Sorry for my terrible chicken scratch and "art work." Keep us posted. I love this stuff.

 

[neonomad]

If we had steady 12 mph east winds here I’d have more meat in the freezer.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Like other threads that we discuss this kind of stuff, without having boots on the ground, it's hard to make definite conclusions, but there are a couple things that do make me curious.

1) That area along the North side of the river that is pretty much of a cliff (the section of the topo from the "b" in Ashtabula to the "r" in river) should warm fairly quickly in the morning on a sunny day due to it's SE exposure. I suspect that there will be an updraft along that section of the river...the closer to the river the more evident it should be.

2) I'd be looking at that bit of that "nose" on the NE portion of your topo. I'm talking about where the that cliff runs tight along the South shoreline makes a bit of a bend and moderates somewhat. I can imagine that there should be some movement associated with that major bend in topography.

3) Those 2 side drainages should produce a bit of an updraft during a NW weather system, usually a nice cold snap. I'd think the updraft would be better with moderate winds rather than light winds.

4) I would think that any trails that parallel closely along the top of that cliff would be hunt able during moderate winds from the NW. The wind will pile up against that steep hillside and it has no choice but to go "up" to get over that ridge. It's one of the times that being "upwind" of deer travel can work. I have a stand like that on my property. The terrain is similar (not quite as steep) as on your map. On a moderate NW wind, I can sit 15 feet high, and on the upwind side of deer traveling parallel to the rim of the ridge. Seems like it could never work but milkweed shows there is an updraft just before my scent would get to the deer. It won't work on light winds, but moderate to higher winds, it's great. The deer think they are monitoring the slope below them, and they are monitoring ground level odor, but at 15 feet high my odor stays just above them.

5) seems to me that there should be some bends in deer travel along that steep slope which are a chink in their armor. But if there are not already bends, you can create some with some strategic hinge cutting.

Like I said in an earlier post, some properties are just plain difficult to hunt. Not impossible to hunt, but it could come down to sitting back and waiting on just the right conditions. It might kill you to stay out of there on certain days, but if it ain't right then you'll only damage the area by educating the herd. Keep them "dumb, comfy, and secure" and surprise them when wind and cloud conditions are right.

And this is another example of the value of minimizing odor. I know a lot of guys think that it's not worth the effort, but when deer have a tendency of getting in the fringes of your scent cone, then reducing odor can pay dividends.

 

[BackSpasm]

Where are they traveling on that hill from bottom bedding to food? I am wondering if they use or rather avoid those two cuts/depressions in the ridge. They dont look to be steep enough at the top from the topo to form perfect pinch points that the deer will circumvent, but they could be good thermal sinks that will suck your scent down the hill in the evening in a concentrated area like a little stream of scent. If they aren't using those for travel up the hill, you could hunt along the edge of one in the evening and let it pull your scent down and away. This strategy isn't clean or perfect, as you are still blowing you scent down into the bottom, but if you slip in once they are on their feet and have a rough pattern you might be able to get a shooter to work up parallel to you without the falling thermal hitting him.

 

[neonomad]

I realize there are a lot of assumptions with this but try and Locate a spring seep, slight rise, rock outcropping something you can see over and shoot over maybe 1/3 of the way down that ridge where their trail is coming up near it to a bench or flat just before the ridgeline. Ideally, the deer trail bends around the seep to some extent. The seep due to temperature differences will generally pull the thermals too it so you have somewhat of a thermal advantage around it. Typically the deer don't just travel straight up or down so try to locate this terrain feature (seep, outcropping, rise, etc.) from some lateral distance from their general bedding ( you don't want them to bed just below the seep etc.) Depending on the distances you can have two potential decent stand locations to try and intercept them working their way up to the fields on top. Sorry for my terrible chicken scratch and "art work." Keep us posted. I love this stuff. View attachment 51885

Thanks I’m making a literal list of all suggestions, because I think being a thermals expert vs amateur is the key to this place…

 

[neonomad]

Like other threads that we discuss this kind of stuff, without having boots on the ground, it's hard to make definite conclusions, but there are a couple things that do make me curious.

1) That area along the North side of the river that is pretty much of a cliff (the section of the topo from the "b" in Ashtabula to the "r" in river) should warm fairly quickly in the morning on a sunny day due to it's SE exposure. I suspect that there will be an updraft along that section of the river...the closer to the river the more evident it should be.

2) I'd be looking at that bit of that "nose" on the NE portion of your topo. I'm talking about where the that cliff runs tight along the South shoreline makes a bit of a bend and moderates somewhat. I can imagine that there should be some movement associated with that major bend in topography.

3) Those 2 side drainages should produce a bit of an updraft during a NW weather system, usually a nice cold snap. I'd think the updraft would be better with moderate winds rather than light winds.

4) I would think that any trails that parallel closely along the top of that cliff would be hunt able during moderate winds from the NW. The wind will pile up against that steep hillside and it has no choice but to go "up" to get over that ridge. It's one of the times that being "upwind" of deer travel can work. I have a stand like that on my property. The terrain is similar (not quite as steep) as on your map. On a moderate NW wind, I can sit 15 feet high, and on the upwind side of deer traveling parallel to the rim of the ridge. Seems like it could never work but milkweed shows there is an updraft just before my scent would get to the deer. It won't work on light winds, but moderate to higher winds, it's great. The deer think they are monitoring the slope below them, and they are monitoring ground level odor, but at 15 feet high my odor stays just above them.

5) seems to me that there should be some bends in deer travel along that steep slope which are a chink in their armor. But if there are not already bends, you can create some with some strategic hinge cutting.

Like I said in an earlier post, some properties are just plain difficult to hunt. Not impossible to hunt, but it could come down to sitting back and waiting on just the right conditions. It might kill you to stay out of there on certain days, but if it ain't right then you'll only damage the area by educating the herd. Keep them "dumb, comfy, and secure" and surprise them when wind and cloud conditions are right.

And this is another example of the value of minimizing odor. I know a lot of guys think that it's not worth the effort, but when deer have a tendency of getting in the fringes of your scent cone, then reducing odor can pay dividends.

(1) I have competing theories here, you may have a point but what I think I experience more is air expanding behind me when I’m near the river and pushing out and into the woods I’m hunting… but if I see it continuing to lift as it blows it’s probably worth a few tries.
(2) Yes, and interestingly that’s the one easiest spot for deer to cross the river to access the woods to the NW. All day sits there starting late Oct not a bad idea, with the thermals pushing up the hill behind you. The downside is you rappel to get there, which I’ve done. In my younger days I’ve gone down it without a rope in the dark with a Summit on my back, which is pure insanity. But I should at a minimum get a camera or two down there to weigh the effort vs opportunity bc you’re right.
(3) these creeks are steep and really pretty, but impassable without pre set ropes… with a stiff wind from the NW this could be very interesting on rut mornings because you’d be looking at prime bedding. Note on these I believe I have to be very careful hunting anywhere near them above in low wind evenings because they flush / suck scent from above down into the valley and I do suspect they could bust you occasionally say 150-175 yards down those cuts and you don’t know it.
(4) I will try this, and on the other hand being at the top of the cliff in evenings for sure vacuums scent off the edge for any stand set near it.

I’m loving the advice thus far and it’s getting the creativity flowing.

Interesting tactical note: See where the primary center river flats ascend the most gently to the east? That’s the highest traffic on ramp, and might be where I need a slope stand. But if the wind is from the west the high probability does exist of scent leaving you heads east, then down slope and collects by the river, and pulls back NW, creating a faint stink wall. In the past the lions share of big deer cross that river in the evenings headed south so I’ve been hesitant with that setup. But we timbered our woods 2 years ago and they’re thickening up, and I think we get more parking on our side through the day then we used to, which makes this a better and better plan.

The buck pic I posted, I suspected that guy beds north / northeast across the river, 1/3 of the way up that south facing bank… I got permission to shed hunt this spring and within 10 mins on that slope I found one of his sheds right where I thought, man that was satisfying.