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Advice to get from Average Hunter to “Bigger Buck” / Mature buck Hunter

You can’t kill a Boone & Crocket if you keep shooting Boone & Crickets.

Roger Raglin
It's "Spoon and Crockpot," sir.

I'll throw this out there...

If you want to shoot mature bucks, you could do worse than hunt a state that has a 77% ratio of bucks harvested at 3.5yo or better.

Best money most can burn is on gasoline.
 
Hate to say it, but killing bigger deer than what you have been killing and using an ILF recurve aren’t exactly synonymous. Depending on your style and set-ups, a recurve will take at least 10 yards off your range or more, which is a pretty big circle around you. Going from an effective range of 30 yards to 20 reduces the area you can shoot by more than double.
 
The two are likely mutually exclusive this season and if I get better at either- I might get better at both.

I don’t think that even makes sense

I hunt with all legal methods of take. I’m enjoying recurve the most but I haven’t put the time in to go “trad” or bow only.
The thread was more just to evaluate my skills and set goals . Hoping others might relate to the topic.
 
Hate to say it, but killing bigger deer than what you have been killing and using an ILF recurve aren’t exactly synonymous. Depending on your style and set-ups, a recurve will take at least 10 yards off your range or more, which is a pretty big circle around you. Going from an effective range of 30 yards to 20 reduces the area you can shoot by more than double.
He also said he wanted to enjoy the hunt more too. With the recurve I'd say he's on the right track. If you want to become a better hunter, placing more restrictions on oneself will force him to get better. Using crutches or gimmicks won't get him what he's after.
 
Not much I can add that others haven't already said.
As been noted, no tactic or mindset in the world can help you kill mature deer if there isn't one to kill. So whatever I say assumes you have big deer where you're hunting.
This is simply my opinion and what I have experienced on PA public the last five years so feel free to dispute whatever I say. My public is loaded with mature game so I consider myself very lucky.
Whenever I get the awesome opportunity to come across a mature animal, I think to myself how much crap that animal has had to deal with to get to the point he is. Think about how many times he's evaded a rifle scope, muzzleloader sabot. crossbow scope, bow sight, bear, coyotes, that has allowed him to become mature. He's somewhere no one is looking. Think over and over again where does no one go, and where he can hide from predators.
The best advice I ever heard and implemented was John Eberhart's " hunt security cover". It doesn't matter how hot or fresh, or abundant sign is. If there's no cover for a mature animal to hide in he will not be there in daylight. I've never seen it. If he did he'd be dead long ago.
People and articles will pound down you need to hunt funnels. Funnels are worthless without cover. You'll hear to hunt benches and saddles and ridges blah blah. All these spots need abundant cover for a buck to feel secure moving through. If you find a bench on a hillside only has big mature trees and no understudy, its a waste of time. Poor smucks year in year out hunt funnels with no cover with no success even during rut.
If you can combine a terrain feature(funnel)+ dense cover+ no human intrusion you got a great recipe for a great hunt.
I'm for the most part mobile, but the very best spot I've ever hunted in PA is a saddle 100 yards wide. It's rich with dense mountain laurel top to bottom. And it's so remote absolutely no one goes there. Like clockwork big deer move through that saddle during rut always

I do hunt some mountain terrain but mostly gently rolling hills. If you have a lot of predators like I do, and it's somewhat flat, I find 90% or more of the biggest bucks are in and around water aka swamps. Most importantly its gets them away from predators. And for whatever reason, I find water stops most hunters in their tracks, hence why the bucks are there.
 
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Not much I can add that others haven't already said.
As been noted, no tactic or mindset in the world can help you kill mature deer if there isn't one to kill. So whatever I say assumes you have big deer where you're hunting.
This is simply my opinion and what I have experienced on PA public the last five years so feel free to dispute whatever I say. My public is loaded with mature game so I consider myself very lucky.
Whenever I get the awesome opportunity to come across a mature animal, I think to myself how much crap that animal has had to deal with to get to the point he is. Think about how many times he's evaded a rifle scope, muzzleloader sabot. crossbow scope, bow sight, bear, coyotes, that has allowed him to become mature. He's somewhere no one is looking. Think over and over again where does no one go, and where he can hide from predators.
The best advice I ever heard and implemented was John Eberhart's " hunt security cover". It doesn't matter how hot or fresh, or abundant sign is. If there's no cover for a mature animal to hide in he will not be there in daylight. I've never seen it. If he did he'd be dead long ago.
People and articles will pound down you need to hunt funnels. Funnels are worthless without cover. You'll hear to hunt benches and saddles and ridges blah blah. All these spots need abundant cover for a buck to feel secure moving through. If you find a bench on a hillside only has big mature trees and no understudy, its a waste of time. Poor smucks year in year out hunt funnels with no cover with no success even during rut.
If you can combine a terrain feature(funnel)+ dense cover+ no human intrusion you got a great recipe for a great hunt.
I'm for the most part mobile, but the very best spot I've ever hunted in PA is a saddle 100 yards wide. It's rich with dense mountain laurel top to bottom. And it's so remote absolutely no one goes there.

I do hunt some mountain terrain but mostly gently rolling hills. If you have a lot of predators like I do, and it's somewhat flat, I find 90% or more of the biggest bucks are in and around water aka swamps. Most importantly its gets them away from predators. And for whatever reason, I find water stops most hunters in their tracks, hence why the bucks are there.
BigMike, One of the very best tree's I've ever found is very similar to what you describe. The river is at my back 10yds away to the west( I have blocked it off with brush so they have to move in front of me). A slough out in front of me to the east 75 yds, and heavy thick primary bedding to the south starting 40 yds away and heavy thick bedding to the north 100yds away. The SW wind blows my scent out over the river. It's the pinch point between 2 islands. Lot's of natural all day natural movement. Plus it's the escape route from either island.
 
He also said he wanted to enjoy the hunt more too. With the recurve I'd say he's on the right track. If you want to become a better hunter, placing more restrictions on oneself will force him to get better. Using crutches or gimmicks won't get him what he's after.
Not saying its a bad idea or commenting on the enjoyment/challenge, it may even improve his hunting in the long run, but efficacy will never go up if you go from a crossbow to a compound or from a compound to a recurve. I don't think anyone sees a compound bow as a crutch... if your SOLE mission is to kill a "trophy buck" no matter the cost, you should hunt with the most effective (legal) weapon available in that season. I choose to bowhunt 99% of the time, but I am certain it hurts my efficacy and I have missed countless opportunities at big deer that would have been lay-ups with a gun (or even crossbow for that matter). I see your argument about becoming a better hunter, but trad shooting will be a huge time sink that could be spent scouting, getting permission, on-stand etc. There is a reason when you see a really big one killed with a stick bow that you think WOW, that is cool. Thats because it is really hard to accomplish routinely.
 
Contrary to what others may say, if there are deer where you're hunting, there's mature deer there. Maybe not where you're looking but they're there. If you are fortunate enough to live in a big buck area or state, it probably has big bucks harvests due to low hunting pressure.
If you live in a high pressure hunting area, there is still going to be age structure but the mature bucks have learned where to hang out and avoid hunters. What you need to do is find those areas and hunt them effectively.
I was driving home from Michigan's Upper Peninsula, through Wisconsin on what happened to be the Wisconsin firearms deer opener. I left the UP before daylight and was into Wisconsin as the sun came up. There were pickup trucks parked everywhere and orange blobs all throughout the different wood lots. As I drove by a field of picked soy beans, I watched a nice mature buck walk through that field to a spot in the center of the field that had a couple small mounds of dirt. I'm not sure why the dirt was there, maybe they were putting in an irrigation pivot or something but that buck walked right in between those piles and laid down. No one in their right mind would have ever thought to look for a buck out there. That's just an example that I have seen.
 
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Not saying its a bad idea or commenting on the enjoyment/challenge, it may even improve his hunting in the long run, but efficacy will never go up if you go from a crossbow to a compound or from a compound to a recurve. I don't think anyone sees a compound bow as a crutch... if your SOLE mission is to kill a "trophy buck" no matter the cost, you should hunt with the most effective (legal) weapon available in that season. I choose to bowhunt 99% of the time, but I am certain it hurts my efficacy and I have missed countless opportunities at big deer that would have been lay-ups with a gun (or even crossbow for that matter). I see your argument about becoming a better hunter, but trad shooting will be a huge time sink that could be spent scouting, getting permission, on-stand etc. There is a reason when you see a really big one killed with a stick bow that you think WOW, that is cool. Thats because it is really hard to accomplish routinely.
I guess it depends on if you're looking for efficiency or skill. If I had a golf ball launcher that I could dial in to compensate for yardage with a scope mounted on it, I could direct a golf ball with enough efficiency to possibly compete with Tiger Woods. Would it make me a better golfer? Probably not. It would bridge a gap between my lack of skill and the skill Tiger has developed over the years using something other than skill.
It's all in what you want to derive from hunting. Some couldn't care less about a learned skill or achieving any level of satisfaction, they only want meat in the freezer and there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone else falls somewhere in between those two extremes. But using the easiest means to accomplish a goal usually doesn't do anything to increase your skill but it can increase your efficiency.
 
Contrary to what others may say, if there are deer where you're hunting, there's mature deer there
Call me Others.

There are parcels out my back door that hold the odd doe or spike but never in 10 years have shown any rut sign or sheds or live bucks. My lease is 110 acres and there's not a piece of pine straw i haven't seen. In the 13 years we've leased it and run cameras there has been exactly 1 buck that camera pics indicated was using that property as a core area. He's dead.

If you start reading up on harvest records and riding the country you'll see that there are areas that are for all intents and purposes, barren.

Nothing about the whitetail reproductive cycle needs a 5 year or older male or female to sustain a herd. For a deer to survive 5 seasons of hunters, poachers, and traffic in some areas is just a phenomenally unlikely thing.

Assuming a mature buck lives on your property is a luxury some people do not have.
 
Call me Others.

There are parcels out my back door that hold the odd doe or spike but never in 10 years have shown any rut sign or sheds or live bucks. My lease is 110 acres and there's not a piece of pine straw i haven't seen. In the 13 years we've leased it and run cameras there has been exactly 1 buck that camera pics indicated was using that property as a core area. He's dead.

If you start reading up on harvest records and riding the country you'll see that there are areas that are for all intents and purposes, barren.

Nothing about the whitetail reproductive cycle needs a 5 year or older male or female to sustain a herd. For a deer to survive 5 seasons of hunters, poachers, and traffic in some areas is just a phenomenally unlikely thing.

Assuming a mature buck lives on your property is a luxury some people do not have.
So explain to me how only the young dumb bucks in your area survive. Who's killing all of the mature bucks? Surely you haven't got big bucks laying all along the highway. Only on rare occasions do we see mature bucks killed along the roads here in Michigan. Does and young bucks are the usual casualties in Michigan. Poaching exists everywhere to some extent but I find it difficult to believe poachers are harvesting all of your mature bucks. Real hunters won't allow poachers to get away with that in most places.

I'm not a deer expert but areas with pine straw isn't where I'd be looking for bucks. There are areas in any state that have poor habitat for deer and few deer will be found there. If you're leasing acreage with poor deer habitat, that seems to be a waste to me. Areas with poor habitat will hold few mature bucks because they can force subordinate deer out of the good areas. Those subordinate deer will move into the less desirable areas which is where it sounds like you're hunting. I suggest you hunt the areas with the better habitat instead of saying no mature bucks live in your area. You will find age structure exists anywhere you find deer. It may be a little lopsided sometimes but it exists.
 
So explain to me how only the young dumb bucks in your area survive. Who's killing all of the mature bucks? Surely you haven't got big bucks laying all along the highway. Only on rare occasions do we see mature bucks killed along the roads here in Michigan. Does and young bucks are the usual casualties in Michigan. Poaching exists everywhere to some extent but I find it difficult to believe poachers are harvesting all of your mature bucks. Real hunters won't allow poachers to get away with that in most places.

I'm not a deer expert but areas with pine straw isn't where I'd be looking for bucks. There are areas in any state that have poor habitat for deer and few deer will be found there. If you're leasing acreage with poor deer habitat, that seems to be a waste to me. Areas with poor habitat will hold few mature bucks because they can force subordinate deer out of the good areas. Those subordinate deer will move into the less desirable areas which is where it sounds like you're hunting. I suggest you hunt the areas with the better habitat instead of saying no mature bucks live in your area. You will find age structure exists anywhere you find deer. It may be a little lopsided sometimes but it exists.
This feels like a rather backwards argument. The question isn't "Who's killing all of the mature bucks?" (which has a built-in assumption that deer are surviving to reach old age in the first place). Rather the question is "are there mature bucks 'here' and are they huntable".

'here' might be a pressured parcel (or mediocre habitat parcel) adjacent to better habitat that you can't access. Or maybe the nutrition sucks so even the old deer aren't impressive. Or the overall density is low enough that there just aren't many deer. Sure if you go far enough you can find a mature buck, but that's 'there' not 'here'.

Of course if you make 'here' large enough you have big bucks available - but that can often mean hunting somewhere else.
 
So explain to me how only the young dumb bucks in your area survive. Who's killing all of the mature bucks? Surely you haven't got big bucks laying all along the highway. Only on rare occasions do we see mature bucks killed along the roads here in Michigan. Does and young bucks are the usual casualties in Michigan. Poaching exists everywhere to some extent but I find it difficult to believe poachers are harvesting all of your mature bucks. Real hunters won't allow poachers to get away with that in most places.

I'm not a deer expert but areas with pine straw isn't where I'd be looking for bucks. There are areas in any state that have poor habitat for deer and few deer will be found there. If you're leasing acreage with poor deer habitat, that seems to be a waste to me. Areas with poor habitat will hold few mature bucks because they can force subordinate deer out of the good areas. Those subordinate deer will move into the less desirable areas which is where it sounds like you're hunting. I suggest you hunt the areas with the better habitat instead of saying no mature bucks live in your area. You will find age structure exists anywhere you find deer. It may be a little lopsided sometimes but it exists.
It seems like you and @Nutterbuster are saying almost the same thing. He’s saying that just because there’s a few deer in an area that does not necessarily mean mature bucks are right there. He’s not saying there’s no mature bucks because they’re all dead he’s saying they’re simply not in that area, likely an area with better habitat like you said. And trust me he’ll be hunting other areas this year based on his thread that’s been pretty popular (and controversial to some).
 
Putting some numbers on it...my family's traditional hunting areas are in a permit area with an estimated population that bounced between 5-9 deer per sq mile when the state was publishing estimates (2010-2017). That's roundabout a deer per hundred acres, on average. one 99th-percentile deer per 16 square miles (on average...). Manageable numbers if you can narrow things down, and have access to the right habitat, and can find the right deer...but it might be a savvier move to hunt elsewhere.

Over the years the age structure on the parcel that they hunt has definitely shifted - as the forest has aged there have been fewer deer but more mature ones.
 
So explain to me how only the young dumb bucks in your area survive. Who's killing all of the mature bucks?
Nobody is killing the mature bucks because rednecks like me are killing the young, dumb bucks before they grow old. Gotta have the young ones before you can have old ones.

I suggest you hunt the areas with the better habitat instead of saying no mature bucks live in your area.

So more or less, give up on the area that doesn't hold mature bucks and move to another area that actually holds mature bucks?

Maybe I'm picking semantics here, but that sentence contradicts "every area holds mature bucks." If you have low deer density and high hunter pressure, there can be large "areas" that cannot be expected to hold a mature deer; or at least not a worthwhile concentration. There are some states that have fewer than 20% of their buck harvest hit 3.5 or better, and there are states with buck/doe ratios estimated to be at or below 1:5. A mature buck can become a literal 1 in 100 animal. Depending on how bad your deer density is, that can mean big chunks of property that don't hold a mature deer. Huge amounts of the US have less than 50 deer per square mile. A mile is 640 acres. So it's within the realm of possibility to have a theoretical 1 mature buck per 1,280 acres...and it can get worse.

I agree my lease is a "waste of time" from a buck harvest standpoint. It's just a good place to go hang out with Dad and burn wood and drink whiskey and shoot does. We know that and are happy with it. I countered your point not to be difficult but because there's somebody out there hunting a small parcel who might read your blanket statement and think they can draw blood from a turnip if they just try a little harder.
 
Huge amounts of the US have less than 50 deer per square mile. A mile is 640 acres. So it's within the realm of possibility to have a theoretical 1 mature buck per 1,280 acres...
That's some seriously optimistic math. Even the densest permit areas in MN are under that (pre-fawn we've got a handful of places that touch 30.) And honestly, given it's been bucks-only harvest for several years in the dpa mentioned above...i suspect that my numbers were optimistic too.

On one hand - It's reassuring to do the math and figure that a 4x4 or 5x5 mile spot that looks good probably has something decent...but there's a lot of dead space and at best it'll be inconsistent.

Still a good time though.
 
That's some seriously optimistic math. Even the densest permit areas in MN are under that (pre-fawn we've got a handful of places that touch 30.) And honestly, given it's been bucks-only harvest for several years in the dpa mentioned above...i suspect that my numbers were optimistic too.

On one hand - It's reassuring to do the math and figure that a 4x4 or 5x5 mile spot that looks good probably has something decent...but there's a lot of dead space and at best it'll be inconsistent.

Still a good time though.
It is optimistic for sure. I was being a little tongue-in-cheek because according to this 2008 estimate (https://data.nal.usda.gov/dataset/w...y-estimates-across-eastern-united-states-2008) everything that aint marked red has less than 45 deer per square mile. And if memory serves deer population across the board has declined since then.
 
It is optimistic for sure. I was being a little tongue-in-cheek because according to this 2008 estimate (https://data.nal.usda.gov/dataset/w...y-estimates-across-eastern-united-states-2008) everything that aint marked red has less than 45 deer per square mile. And if memory serves deer population across the board has declined since then.
Good to remember that even in high-density areas you still need a decent-sized haystack (or, you know, a really good spot)
 
Call me Others.

There are parcels out my back door that hold the odd doe or spike but never in 10 years have shown any rut sign or sheds or live bucks. My lease is 110 acres and there's not a piece of pine straw i haven't seen. In the 13 years we've leased it and run cameras there has been exactly 1 buck that camera pics indicated was using that property as a core area. He's dead.

If you start reading up on harvest records and riding the country you'll see that there are areas that are for all intents and purposes, barren.

Nothing about the whitetail reproductive cycle needs a 5 year or older male or female to sustain a herd. For a deer to survive 5 seasons of hunters, poachers, and traffic in some areas is just a phenomenally unlikely thing.

Assuming a mature buck lives on your property is a luxury some people do not have.
I''m from Burlington County NJ. Not exactly big buck territory. More specifically the Pine Barrens which is really poor habitat. A 100" 8 pt buck was big. Deer drives kept the age class low. 85% of the kill was 1 1/2 old bucks. The occasional big buck lived there though. On our lease, my hunting partner killed the #1 muzzeloader buck in the state 300-400yds from our cabin. 139" 15pt. Our own members didn't believe he killed it there. Some even said he must've poached it somewhere else because bucks like that didn't exist in our woods. For the most part they were right but that one did. In the next county which has worse habitat the state record non-typical was killed. I forget the score but was well over 200". Most bucks killed out of that area were dinks. Mostly spikes and y bucks. However I do agree with you, yours odds grow tremendously if known big mature bucks actually live where you're hunting. That's one of the reasons why I moved to MT. They live here. Once I got here 20n yrs ago, only then did I start to see and kill mature bucks with any sort of frequency.
 
When looking at a property and trying to kill a big buck three things that always come to mind...

1#where would you live and travel if you were a mature buck trying to keep yourself from being killed...

2#Where would the average hunter not go or give up trying to get too...

3# How can I access that location without bumping deer or them knowing I’m there...
 
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