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Best friction hitch for climbing and set?

Well nevermind then, back to the mechanical. I was thinking I could rappel on this and use my other hand as a brake hand. I was talking to my boss the other day (retired tier 1 SEAL). He broke a rope out and taught me to how to rappel by wrapping the rope around your arm, sit back, wrap your opposite thigh and the use both hands as brakes. He said they would rappel down a building like that, no knots, no devices, just a little rope burn if you are being shot at. That is my new self rescue technique.
I've seen that in old Boy Scout manuals. I think it was taught to mountaineers as an emergency technique before the advent of modern equipment. My (uneducated) $.02 is, it's a worthwhile thing to know as a last alternative to falling, but not something I want on my list of intended techniques.
 
Yes, the JRB Ascender is awesome.

It's important we never get stuck in a tree, and so to be able to break a friction hitch under the weight of our full body weight, even with no footing. But this video explains why your question is a good one. And this link has details on how to tie it, with video links.


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Rappelling on a hitch requires the introduction of additional friction as provided by such srt hybrid devices- Roperunner, Ropewrench, Akimbo and Hitchhiker. Rappelling on a hitch of proper diameter in reference to climbing line along with the addition of more friction can be a smooth ride but nothing like a mechanical. They (mechanicals)tend like butter,grip immediately and release providing they are matched diameter wise to the rope.
 
Rappelling on a hitch requires the introduction of additional friction as provided by such srt hybrid devices- Roperunner, Ropewrench, Akimbo and Hitchhiker. Rappelling on a hitch of proper diameter in reference to climbing line along with the addition of more friction can be a smooth ride but nothing like a mechanical. They (mechanicals)tend like butter,grip immediately and release providing they are matched diameter wise to the rope.
Friends, I agree that we should never execute a single rope rappel using friction provided only by a friction hitch. Yes, it is possible in an emergency, but should only be executed slowly, using heat resistant cord, and with only a few friction hitches with excellent non jamming properties. Most will jam and get stuck. Don't learn that the hard way.

In addition to the mechanical friction devices mentioned, we can execute a safe and effective single rope rappel using a combination of a friction hitch AND a simple friction device such as a Munter, Figure 8 or ATC. And we can do so on smaller rope diameters which may not be compatible with a complex device. The friction hitch must be chosen carefully because most friction hitches are not reliably broken under load. I am aware of a handful which work. I have extensively tested the ones I introduced and which can be used for non mechanical climb and rappel:
Double Michoacán
523 JRB Ascender Hitch
Agile Hitch

No matter what moveable attachment method you use, please consider adding redundancy for it. It's really simple to put a Hedden Friction hitch above your mechanical device. If it slipped or ya accidentally released it or if it failed completely, the Hedden will catch ya. And if you're on a friction hitch, my Garda hitch is an extremely reliable backup. Sure, some are going to say it's not necessary. But they may have a lot more experience and just because they "never had a problem with it", they shouldn't be telling us what chances to take.

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Friends, I agree that we should never execute a single rope rappel using friction provided only by a friction hitch. Yes, it is possible in an emergency, but should only be executed slowly, using heat resistant cord, and with only a few friction hitches with excellent non jamming properties. Most will jam and get stuck. Don't learn that the hard way.

In addition to the mechanical friction devices mentioned, we can execute a safe and effective single rope rappel using a combination of a friction hitch AND a simple friction device such as a Munter, Figure 8 or ATC. And we can do so on smaller rope diameters which may not be compatible with a complex device. The friction hitch must be chosen carefully because most friction hitches are not reliably broken under load. I am aware of a handful which work. I have extensively tested the ones I introduced and which can be used for non mechanical climb and rappel:
Double Michoacán
523 JRB Ascender Hitch
Agile Hitch

No matter what moveable attachment method you use, please consider adding redundancy for it. It's really simple to put a Hedden Friction hitch above your mechanical device. If it slipped or ya accidentally released it or if it failed completely, the Hedden will catch ya. And if you're on a friction hitch, my Garda hitch is an extremely reliable backup. Sure, some are going to say it's not necessary. But they may have a lot more experience and just because they "never had a problem with it", they shouldn't be telling us what chances to take.

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“Can” and should are 2 totally different things though. Just because the math adds up on paper that 6mm or 7mm rope with 3k mbs, ran in a twin rope system is plenty strong or “works” when used with 5mm cord and with a garda and two Michoacán hitches, doesn’t mean it SHOULD be taught or suggested. Is there one qualified or certified climbing school or instructor teaching this or backing these claims? And telling them that this system is “safer” or meets the criteria for a safe amount of friction and handling. Some of these people are literally learning to climb from You Tube….. Again we are telling guys it’s ok to use stuff that trained and certified rope rescue climbers, arborists, and canyoneers can’t or won’t use.
 
“Can” and should are 2 totally different things though. Just because the math adds up on paper that 6mm or 7mm rope with 3k mbs, ran in a twin rope system is plenty strong or “works” when used with 5mm cord and with a garda and two Michoacán hitches, doesn’t mean it SHOULD be taught or suggested. Is there one qualified or certified climbing school or instructor teaching this or backing these claims? And telling them that this system is “safer” or meets the criteria for a safe amount of friction and handling. Some of these people are literally learning to climb from You Tube….. Again we are telling guys it’s ok to use stuff that trained and certified rope rescue climbers, arborists, and canyoneers can’t or won’t use.
How often are standards reviewed? Is it possible to have new or different products or devices reviewed and then approved? I don't disagree with your point. At all. I do wonder what motivation the certifying organization(s) has to make a change. Seems like a lot of headaches they probably don't want to deal with every time a new rope or cord or device of some sort comes out. Are these organizations and individuals 100% shielded from liability? If not nothing new is ever going to get approved, why risk it?
 
I've seen that in old Boy Scout manuals. I think it was taught to mountaineers as an emergency technique before the advent of modern equipment. My (uneducated) $.02 is, it's a worthwhile thing to know as a last alternative to falling, but not something I want on my list of intended techniques.

 
How often are standards reviewed? Is it possible to have new or different products or devices reviewed and then approved? I don't disagree with your point. At all. I do wonder what motivation the certifying organization(s) has to make a change. Seems like a lot of headaches they probably don't want to deal with every time a new rope or cord or device of some sort comes out. Are these organizations and individuals 100% shielded from liability? If not nothing new is ever going to get approved, why risk it?
ASTM and other organizations meet every year sometimes multiple times a year. UIAA does as well. Manufactures and inventors can join for small fees and request provisions and reviews if they create a system, product or method that does something better or accomplishes the same levels of performance. The organizations and standards committees often are comprised with some of the manufacturers of the products in the industries they are representing. These guys would profit from less stringent standards because they could sell or use cheaper products with less materials ect…. Yes they can profit to an extent if they have a patent or toe hold on a certain market, but they could also make money on changes where thinner lighter things could be considered a safe alternative. I think of it like this, standards, rules, warnings, the need for training and certifications all exist because somewhere somehow, someone much “smarter” than us, pushed the envelope and failed.
 
How often are standards reviewed? Is it possible to have new or different products or devices reviewed and then approved? I don't disagree with your point. At all. I do wonder what motivation the certifying organization(s) has to make a change. Seems like a lot of headaches they probably don't want to deal with every time a new rope or cord or device of some sort comes out. Are these organizations and individuals 100% shielded from liability? If not nothing new is ever going to get approved, why risk it?
I want to add though I agree with JRB 100% that backing up a mechanical device is good practice. These devices aren’t designed for true hands free operation and if we stop to take our platform off the tree or a stick ect… we are removing our hands from the rope and device. Even though you “can” sit in the Madrock hands free without a hitch back up, doesn’t mean you should. So I agree with John, hitches are stronger lighter and less expensive, Backing up your device is important. He’s right on all accounts there. I just don’t understand the double rope, hitch and garda climbing on micro lines. The ropes are cheaper, lighter ect… he says he shows arborists and other climbing professionals his methods all the time. With the “ease of use” and cost savings, why aren’t any of them endorsing his method or teaching it in climbing schools? I’m asking him, not to stop someone from innovation, but out of pure morbid curiosity. He’s putting a lot of time and effort into this system and he tags his videos in nearly any knot, rope, or climbing post on this forum and was doing the same on saddlehunter nation until last year. With all this extensive testing, rope knowledge and exposure, it seems like someone would have picked it up and ram with it by now. He would gain a ton of legitimacy and potentially reach a larger audience if he had the International brotherhood of tree climbers, or Cornell college endorse and certify his method.
 
I want to add though I agree with JRB 100% that backing up a mechanical device is good practice. These devices aren’t designed for true hands free operation and if we stop to take our platform off the tree or a stick ect… we are removing our hands from the rope and device. Even though you “can” sit in the Madrock hands free without a hitch back up, doesn’t mean you should. So I agree with John, hitches are stronger lighter and less expensive, Backing up your device is important. He’s right on all accounts there. I just don’t understand the double rope, hitch and garda climbing on micro lines. The ropes are cheaper, lighter ect… he says he shows arborists and other climbing professionals his methods all the time. With the “ease of use” and cost savings, why aren’t any of them endorsing his method or teaching it in climbing schools? I’m asking him, not to stop someone from innovation, but out of pure morbid curiosity. He’s putting a lot of time and effort into this system and he tags his videos in nearly any knot, rope, or climbing post on this forum and was doing the same on saddlehunter nation until last year. With all this extensive testing, rope knowledge and exposure, it seems like someone would have picked it up and ram with it by now. He would gain a ton of legitimacy and potentially reach a larger audience if he had the International brotherhood of tree climbers, or Cornell college endorse and certify his method.
it’s high time for John to be vendor badged don’t you think
 
it’s high time for John to be vendor badged don’t you think
I really don’t know what to classify John. He’s not selling a product per se, but he’s definitely not your standard you tube saddle influencer like Madhunts or budget sportsman either. The mods on here have been more than fair to company reps, but in John’s case, is his system his product, or is it simply a passion for what he’s doing?
 
I really don’t know what to classify John. He’s not selling a product per se, but he’s definitely not your standard you tube saddle influencer like Madhunts or budget sportsman either. The mods on here have been more than fair to company reps, but in John’s case, is his system his product, or is it simply a passion for what he’s doing?
This is more of a critic of JRB promoting himself and his brand than John as a person. I enjoy seeing what contraptions and methods he comes up with even if I don’t use them. I do think the amount that he promotes his stuff and then belittles other methods comes off like a Prostaff. It just gets old, similar to a Prostaff always talking up their brand and bashing others. You also can’t find any fault in his methods. It is just biased information.

Yea he doesn’t sell something directly, but he clearly represents a brand and product, which is JRB and he defends or plugs it everywhere in every thread he comments in. There’s no doubt that he spends a lot of time with his gear, and is very knowledgeable and passionate about climbing, has developed modifications and some cool stuff (stuff that I use constantly like double stationary climbing and the Garda) and desires safety. It also seems to me that since he’s not “technically” selling anything he gets free range to constantly plug himself and his hitches into every climbing thread on here.

He still doesn’t appear to have a membership but he has been constantly benefits from pushing his brand, website, climbing methods, hitches, YouTube channel, Facebook group, affiliate links, etc. for a couple years now on saddlehunter.com. He has grown out of the just doing it to help folks to get into rope climbing and moved into that field of growing his brand and his name. A lot of these things sound exactly why Prostaff get a vendor badges so for those reasons and to be fair I’d like to see him get a vendor badge.
 
This is more of a critic of JRB promoting himself and his brand than John as a person. I enjoy seeing what contraptions and methods he comes up with even if I don’t use them. I do think the amount that he promotes his stuff and then belittles other methods comes off like a Prostaff. It just gets old, similar to a Prostaff always talking up their brand and bashing others. You also can’t find any fault in his methods. It is just biased information.

Yea he doesn’t sell something directly, but he clearly represents a brand and product, which is JRB and he defends or plugs it everywhere in every thread he comments in. There’s no doubt that he spends a lot of time with his gear, and is very knowledgeable and passionate about climbing, has developed modifications and some cool stuff (stuff that I use constantly like double stationary climbing and the Garda) and desires safety. It also seems to me that since he’s not “technically” selling anything he gets free range to constantly plug himself and his hitches into every climbing thread on here.

He still doesn’t appear to have a membership but he has been constantly benefits from pushing his brand, website, climbing methods, hitches, YouTube channel, Facebook group, affiliate links, etc. for a couple years now on saddlehunter.com. He has grown out of the just doing it to help folks to get into rope climbing and moved into that field of growing his brand and his name. A lot of these things sound exactly why Prostaff get a vendor badges so for those reasons and to be fair I’d like to see him get a vendor badge.
Man when you put it like that, I definitely agree
 
I would classify John as a guy who wants to share his knowledge and help us out. He knows many are saddle hunting without much tree climbing experience. I want him to continue posting any way he wants. I’ve learned a lot from him. He makes it safer too.
 
My concern with the standards and safety groups are that the must be constantly safer. At some point, quite quickly in my experience, is that safe becomes safer.

"my idea is safer, right? It'd be ludicrous not to adopt this safer standard!" So the rule makers comply.

Next year we do that same safer game. Pretty damn quick we lost sight of what's safe. always raising that bar, it's safer!! afterall. And so on.

This does keep new products from coming to market. This does raise the bar for entry as a user. Pretty soon, if you don't belong, you can't belong.

I don't see arguments that hold true across all situations/industry/ users. Just entities trying to position themselves as safest! XkN is XkN weather it's a 9.2mm or 8.5mm rope. Or 1mm. Is 1mm the same? Not at all, but I don't see any arguments for why it's not safer. Just call that dude crazy and move on, right? Buddy?

It's really pretty similar to some of the gossip in the last few posts...
 
The same goes for training. Where can I get training from these elite entities so that I can be safe? Or taught safe? I did try reaching out to the only rock climbing gym around. Crickets. Guess that means I'm not cool enough to saddle hunt or climb a tree.
 
The same goes for training. Where can I get training from these elite entities so that I can be safe? Or taught safe? I did try reaching out to the only rock climbing gym around. Crickets. Guess that means I'm not cool enough to saddle hunt or climb a tree.
I actually like that we are all having this conversation. There are very good points and I personally enjoy getting to talk about the perceived good and bad to different climbing methods, especially rope techniques.
I’m not sure how qualified they are, but there is a “saddle hunter school” listed up there somewhere (Michigan I believe). There are also places that offer recreational tree climbing training. There are climbing clubs that meet up on weekends and the heads of those chapters are often times certified climbing instructors. Hunting is voluntary so no one can make you get certified. Which is why I believe simpler less complicated methods, especially tried and true ones are better for beginners and novices.
As far as your other post, I agree that xkN is xkN but all ropes and materials are not created equal and usually (there are exceptions) thinner main line also means thinner hitch cord. These smaller ropes and cords are often made using technora which isn’t as abrasion or UV resistant, or dyneema which doesn’t like heat or shock loading. Yes we’ve made the industry standard (innovation?) in saddle hunting for bridges ect, but those innovations came with pros and cons…. Or if the rope is polyester, it’s thinner so more prone to wear just because of the smaller diameter. There are small ropes with better covers that last but typically they won’t last as long as say a 10 thru 13 mm rope would. Smaller cords are not as easy to handle (pulling leverage or holding) as larger ropes either. They generate less friction through mechanicals and atc’s or 8’s so it’s easier to have a slip or accident. In rock climbing the rope diameters you mentioned are often the difference in a rope being a single rope, and one being a twin rope. I say all that basically just to reiterate that I see both sides of the coin here, but for me I would rather air to the side of proven traditional cautions. Enough can already go wrong when you’re out in the woods with a weapon and climbing 20’ in the air with the elements not always in our favor. I wasn’t condemning John or anyone who chooses to use his system, I’m simply asking why aren’t the certified climbers signing off. Maybe it’s because they are too proud or stuck in their ways to listen to him…..? Or maybe it’s because they don’t see value in the system, or they see flaws or dangers in his conclusions and don’t feel the urge to help promote it….? I don’t have insight and I was asking him because at this point in his system’s promotion, he should have gotten that type of feedback
 
I would classify John as a guy who wants to share his knowledge and help us out. He knows many are saddle hunting without much tree climbing experience. I want him to continue posting any way he wants. I’ve learned a lot from him. He makes it safer too.
I believe John enjoys climbing and also enjoys sharing his experiences and methods with others. I’ve seen where he says as much. Including private messages Ive exchanged with him. He’s been very cordial as well. I appreciate his input and it often spurs some very entertaining back and forths between him, Brocky, and myself. I would be lying if I ever said that John and Brocky were misinformed. Because honestly, they are both super knowledgeable and rarely (if ever) wrong when it comes to ropes, knots or hitches…
However GRC is not wrong either, in that John promotes his brand very aggressively, similarly to company pro staffers. I think it’s great that you’ve learned a lot from him. That is a very complex system to learn on line and I’m impressed that people have taken the time and effort to learn the system.
 
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