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Cord question

Fl Canopy Stalker said:

At our meet up, a guy was showing some people how he one stick climbed. He wasn’t backed up at all, he reached downward to his weak side (the side opposite of the handle) to pull up his one stick. He rotated a little bit too much. Now he claimed something on his saddle hung up his release handle but I’ve heard of rappel devices releasing if over rotated because the rope comes through at too little of an angle to safely engage… anyway with no thought to it at all he rotated hands free and grabbed his one stick and no quicker than he did he tumbled down the tree. Ask @Weldabeast @MADhunts or @ScottL, @JAYBO or any one who may have seen it, he fell insanely fast. It was scary (luckily he was only one move off the ground) but regardless it wasn’t something I’d want to do. However I think it highlighted the need for mechanicals to be backed up. I’m not sure a autoblock on his linesman would have helped in that instance but I am positive a hitch above the device would have prevented it.
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I set up my rope as you demonstrated on your video and will be giving it a try soon. I was wondering whether you let the Gri Gri or the hitch above it carry your weight when hunting?
 
drpike22 said:
I set up my rope as you demonstrated on your video and will be giving it a try soon. I was wondering whether you let the Gri Gri or the hitch above it carry your weight when hunting?
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When I’m at height, I usually use a separate tether and a friction hitch but if I were staying in the climbing rope, I’d leave my weight on the gri gri since it’s simple to adjust
 
Dyehard said:
If I wanted an eye to eye sling to tie a schwabisch hitch above my Madrock Safeguard while using 9mm canyon elite to rappel, what type, size, and length cord would you suggest?
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you can tie it and close it with a hunters bend, but you can also get sewn eyes from EWO in the Beal 5.5 and the 6mm TRC……LOVE both of these cords and both will do great on the elite…..Btw-love that elite too!
 
An issue I found with with using the small carabiner w/cord to tend a hitch over the Madrock is if the carabiner slips off the friction hitch while rappelling and the friction hitch grabs, now you are hanging halfway down the tree and stuck.
And trying to tend a hitch above the device with a couple of fingers while operating the lever was too difficult for me to do.
For now I seem to have settled on adding a Sterling Hollow block 6.8mm continuous loop (the one EWO sells) tied with a standard prusik after I get to height. I put a little tension on it to keep it in place. I'm still very new to all this and haven't settled on a regular method when I rappel down, but for now when it comes time to rappel down I've been removing the prusik tied above my device and either using no backup hitch and just tying a quick knot above my madrock while I go hands free to get my stick or I use the Sterling to tie an autoblock hitch to my lineman's belt. I realize this is not recommended but since I'm already at height and have no slack in my tether/rappel line I don't see how I could dynamically load that line while coming down. And this method at least backs me up all the way down. For anyone interested I'm using Canyon Elite 9mm rope as my tether/rappel line.
Fi Canopy stalker - I'm curious, why don't you think having a backup tied to a lineman's loop wouldn't have helped the guy that fell? I would think having something would have been better than nothing?
 
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ww874 said:
An issue I found with with using the small carabiner w/cord to tend a hitch over the Madrock is if the carabiner slips off the friction hitch while rappelling and the friction hitch grabs, now you are hanging halfway down the tree and stuck.
And trying to tend a hitch above the device with a couple of fingers while operating the lever was too difficult for me to do.
For now I seem to have settled on adding a Sterling Hollow block 6.8mm continuous loop (the one EWO sells) tied with a standard prusik after I get to height. I put a little tension on it to keep it in place. I'm still very new to all this and haven't settled on a regular method when I rappel down, but for now when it comes time to rappel down I've been removing the prusik tied above my device and either using no backup hitch and just tying a quick knot above my madrock while I go hands free to get my stick or I use the Sterling to tie an autoblock hitch to my lineman's belt. I realize this is not recommended but since I'm already at height and have no slack in my tether/rappel line I don't see how I could dynamically load that line while coming down. And this method at least backs me up all the way down. For anyone interested I'm using Canyon Elite 9mm rope as my tether/rappel line.
Fi Canopy stalker - I'm curious, why don't you think having a backup tied to a lineman's loop wouldn't have helped the guy that fell? I would think having something would have been better than nothing?
Click to expand...
Then you aren’t using a small enough carabiner if it’s slipping over the hitch cord. There are extremely small key chain carabiners, or the small s biner. They will barely fit over your rope and they will be too small to jump over your hitch cord
 
ww874 said:
An issue I found with with using the small carabiner w/cord to tend a hitch over the Madrock is if the carabiner slips off the friction hitch while rappelling and the friction hitch grabs, now you are hanging halfway down the tree and stuck.
And trying to tend a hitch above the device with a couple of fingers while operating the lever was too difficult for me to do.
For now I seem to have settled on adding a Sterling Hollow block 6.8mm continuous loop (the one EWO sells) tied with a standard prusik after I get to height. I put a little tension on it to keep it in place. I'm still very new to all this and haven't settled on a regular method when I rappel down, but for now when it comes time to rappel down I've been removing the prusik tied above my device and either using no backup hitch and just tying a quick knot above my madrock while I go hands free to get my stick or I use the Sterling to tie an autoblock hitch to my lineman's belt. I realize this is not recommended but since I'm already at height and have no slack in my tether/rappel line I don't see how I could dynamically load that line while coming down. And this method at least backs me up all the way down. For anyone interested I'm using Canyon Elite 9mm rope as my tether/rappel line.
Fi Canopy stalker - I'm curious, why don't you think having a backup tied to a lineman's loop wouldn't have helped the guy that fell? I would think having something would have been better than nothing?
Click to expand...
Also about the lineman’s loop, a) he was already hard leaning to the side so the rope would have slid.. whether that would have made it all the way to the rappel device or not? I’m unsure, however I believe it would have and it would have tended the hitch instead of stopping it. So again I personally feel like the hitch would have made it all the way to the rappel device and the device (since the cam wasn’t engaged) would have basically tended the hitch not allowing it to grab or at least making it take longer to grab and stop the fall……..

But let’s say others are correct and it didn’t reach the belay device, he still would have a dynamic event and the hitch would have been bound on the rope like you said your 6.8 hollow block does. Only now instead of being under the hitch in a normal recovery position, you’re stuck on your side in an uncomfortable position and you are trying to break the hitch out side of your “power zone”… remember that because the rope is exiting the brake side and the prusik grabs, whatever position you stop in, is the position your hitch is now bound in and since it’s your brake line that is attached, all your slack for handle and speed control would be gone. I’d rather be “stuck” in the upright seated position, where I can recover (perhaps set a secondary tether and get down) like you were saying you were if the carabiner popped off the hitch, than stuck nearly face down on my side/hip with barely any room for my hand between the device and my autoblock…. Being inverted or nearly inverted as the case would be, is the most dangerous position you can be in from elevation.

and all of that is assuming your saddle actually has lineman’s loops that are strong enough to handle dynamic loading.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:

At our meet up, a guy was showing some people how he one stick climbed. He wasn’t backed up at all, he reached downward to his weak side (the side opposite of the handle) to pull up his one stick. He rotated a little bit too much. Now he claimed something on his saddle hung up his release handle but I’ve heard of rappel devices releasing if over rotated because the rope comes through at too little of an angle to safely engage… anyway with no thought to it at all he rotated hands free and grabbed his one stick and no quicker than he did he tumbled down the tree. Ask @Weldabeast @MADhunts or @ScottL, @JAYBO or any one who may have seen it, he fell insanely fast. It was scary (luckily he was only one move off the ground) but regardless it wasn’t something I’d want to do. However I think it highlighted the need for mechanicals to be backed up. I’m not sure a autoblock on his linesman would have helped in that instance but I am positive a hitch above the device would have prevented it.
Click to expand...

@MADhunts recently posted his Safeguard backup video but was taking it to a secondary bridge instead clipping it to the carabiner as you showed. I’m new to this and was curious the pros and cons of using the secondary bridge versus just the carabiner? The carabiner looks like a simpler setup which I prefer.

 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Also about the lineman’s loop, a) he was already hard leaning to the side so the rope would have slid.. whether that would have made it all the way to the rappel device or not? I’m unsure, however I believe it would have and it would have tended the hitch instead of stopping it.
Click to expand...

What was the reason for the hard lean?
 
Cbigbear said:
What was the reason for the hard lean?
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Either the flatbill was obstructing the view or the extra cool beard was interfering with the rappel device....hehehe

I honestly don't know what that dude was doing. I was standing maybe 40yds from "the incident" when it happened. Dude was talking with another guy that was standing on the ground. I think it was a 1sticking demonstration...I said to myself woah, he's coming down way fast...and then he landed on the ground and it was obvious that it was a boo boo and not training for the rappel races we had planned for later
 
Bratch said:
@MADhunts recently posted his Safeguard backup video but was taking it to a secondary bridge instead clipping it to the carabiner as you showed. I’m new to this and was curious the pros and cons of using the secondary bridge versus just the carabiner? The carabiner looks like a simpler setup which I prefer.

Click to expand...
The pros of using a secondary bridge or even a secondary carabiner on your bridge would be a) redundancy and
B)the hitch would be further off the belay device therefore less likely to interfere with you working the handle.
The cons would be additional parts/weight and noise potential. I don’t personally find having 2 bridges as beneficial but some people do. As long as you clip your hitch to the opposite side of the handle of the belay, I don’t find it interfering with operation
 
Cbigbear said:
What was the reason for the hard lean?
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He was a very tall guy and he climbed to the top of his one stick. I can’t remember what he used for his attachment method, I just remember him sitting off to the right of his climbing stick and then leaning hard left as he unstrapped it from the tree to set it for his next move.
 
Dyehard said:
If I wanted an eye to eye sling to tie a schwabisch hitch above my Madrock Safeguard while using 9mm canyon elite to rappel, what type, size, and length cord would you suggest?
Click to expand...
A 7mm cord will work great for friction hitches with Maxim Canyon Elite. Personally, Schwabish is not very high on my list of friction hitches, but it's clearly better than a prusik. Remember, that if you actually needed your backup, it implies that your primary device failed. And so, that is the situation you wanna simulate: imagine you just started a rappel, ya got nothing under your feet and your device failed and you have 100% of your weight on your friction hitch. How ya getting down? For me, it's no problem:
1. My friction hitch can always be broken under load.
2. I always have a redundant bridge, and it always has a carabiner. Pop in a munter and break your hitch.

Its so foolproof, i have no reason for a device.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
GeoFish said:
I am using this on 10mm rope.
Says it's rated for 9mm. Plus made in the USA.

woodhuntingsaddles.com

7mm VT Friction Hitch Cord (eye to eye)

The 7mm VT Prusik was designed for use on smaller diameter ropes. This specialty design features a tough, heat resistant Technora aramid sheath over durable nylon core strands. The core in this kernmantle design keeps the VT from flattening and binding up. A computerized large gauge sewing...
woodhuntingsaddles.com woodhuntingsaddles.com
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I just ordered a VT Friction hitch cord as well as another adjustable amsteel bridge from Wood Hunting Saddles this past week. Going to run a short bridge as well as full length bridge this season.
 
Man, you guys have me wanting to try one-sticking with my Smart 2.0 below a hitch again. I tried it last summer, and was all prepared to love the idea except I couldn’t arrive at a proper hitch. I experimented with multiple hitches using 6mm TRC/EWO sewn 6mm on Elite 9mm. Either the hitch tended nicely but I didn’t trust it to hold me, or it held but was impossible to release coming down. Maybe switching to a 7mm cord and using @Fl Canopy Stalker $2 biner tender could be the trick…
 
Marmuzz said:
Man, you guys have me wanting to try one-sticking with my Smart 2.0 below a hitch again. I tried it last summer, and was all prepared to love the idea except I couldn’t arrive at a proper hitch. I experimented with multiple hitches using 6mm TRC/EWO sewn 6mm on Elite 9mm. Either the hitch tended nicely but I didn’t trust it to hold me, or it held but was impossible to release coming down. Maybe switching to a 7mm cord and using @Fl Canopy Stalker $2 biner tender could be the trick…
Click to expand...
I use 7mm TRC on C-IV and like it. Currently alternating between Sticht, WLR, and JRB compact.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:

At our meet up, a guy was showing some people how he one stick climbed. He wasn’t backed up at all, he reached downward to his weak side (the side opposite of the handle) to pull up his one stick. He rotated a little bit too much. Now he claimed something on his saddle hung up his release handle but I’ve heard of rappel devices releasing if over rotated because the rope comes through at too little of an angle to safely engage… anyway with no thought to it at all he rotated hands free and grabbed his one stick and no quicker than he did he tumbled down the tree. Ask @Weldabeast @MADhunts or @ScottL, @JAYBO or any one who may have seen it, he fell insanely fast. It was scary (luckily he was only one move off the ground) but regardless it wasn’t something I’d want to do. However I think it highlighted the need for mechanicals to be backed up. I’m not sure a autoblock on his linesman would have helped in that instance but I am positive a hitch above the device would have prevented it.
Click to expand...

I'm still very new to rapelling so what happened doesn't make complete sense to me yet. I'd be curious to see someone try to recreate the problem (at ground level, of course) to verify exactly what caused it.
 
deertrout said:
I'm still very new to rapelling so what happened doesn't make complete sense to me yet. I'd be curious to see someone try to recreate the problem (at ground level, of course) to verify exactly what caused it.
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IMG_8068.jpegIMG_8067.jpeg
the reason that pulling on the brake line too hard is a no no, is that it causes the device (cam) to align in such a way that friction is no longer produced. This can also be accomplished by rolling too far to the side of the brake line which is what we think happened at the meet up. Either that or the handle got jammed and couldn’t close. Madrock works on a similar principle so the assumption is when he over rotated to pull his stick up to advance, it aligned the cam enough to remove friction and allow him to drop. While I haven’t personally tried to recreate the event, I have found other similar events being described on other climbing sites. To me it’s another example of warnings beingput in place not because something “could happen” but because somewhere/sometime, it already has happened.
 
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