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Falling on static vs dynamic ropes-from the howNOT2 guys on youtube

thedutchtouch

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So these guys seem to know what they are talking about. Looking at the forces generated falling on ropes and comparing static vs dynamic ropes etc. Interesting stuff. Definitely rock climbing (they go into forces that break anchors and other gear etc) but another good reminder to not have slack.

 
Edit-: whoops this was supposed to be an edit, not a post count padding reply, my bad- Canyon users may recognize the rope in the thumbnail.
 
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It is my understanding that because the distance you might fall with slack in your tether when one stick climbing or other, that dynamic rope will not make much difference vs. static rope. You would need to be on a longer length of dynamic rope to gain the benefit of its stretch. It also could be too bouncy if you were to use it for SRT. Opinions vary.
 
Don’t get @Brocky all spun up now with your weak science.
Too late! Actually pretty much true, there would be little benefit from a short amount of dynamic rope. But some think any stretch would help??
Bouncing only happens if you’re a fast, aggressive climber that partially unloads the rope in between moves.
 
Too late! Actually pretty much true, there would be little benefit from a short amount of dynamic rope. But some think any stretch would help??
Bouncing only happens if you’re a fast, aggressive climber that partially unloads the rope in between moves.
In our application using dynamic rope vs static would probably be like the difference between punching concrete or wood, both are hard but one is just a bit “softer”.
 
It is my understanding that because the distance you might fall with slack in your tether when one stick climbing or other, that dynamic rope will not make much difference vs. static rope. You would need to be on a longer length of dynamic rope to gain the benefit of its stretch. It also could be too bouncy if you were to use it for SRT. Opinions vary.

Any amount of stretch is much preferable to none.

The fall factor calculation takes length of rope into account, and this length of rope in our case also includes the part wrapped around the tree (it stretches also if dynamic....but probably not as much since it is experiencing bark friction....but breaking free and sliding on bark could also have a cushioning effect....I think that part is all untested however).

It goes like this:

1. if you fall 20 feet on 20 feet of rope (a fall factor of 1), then you are going much faster than if you'd only fallen 2 feet. But, handily, dynamic elongation is is a percentage of rope length, so your rope might stretch 5 feet.....but you need it
2. let's assume you are using a tether and include the wrap around the tree, you'll be falling a shorter distance than your rope, but let's assume for sake of argument that you fall 4 feet on 4 feet of rope, you do not need as much cushioning (since gravity has acted on you a shorter period) and you get less also.....around 1 foot if we keep things similar here

But let's say it is only 2 inches of stretch. For some weird reason, maybe because it isn't intuitive, people besmirch 2 inches of give, when the alternative is 0.0 or close there in (zero stretch

When you have an impact the rope or surface that catches you does work on your body to decelerate it. Quick decelerations are worse than slower.

The basic Newtonian equation to describe this is:

Work = Mass X Acceleration X Distance

Which is rearranged to

Acceleration = Work/(Mass X Distance)

The Distance is the stretch of the rope in this case. For the same height fall, the Work required stays the same as it is a function of gravity and distance/time and Mass stays the same. You can see that varying distances from 0.5 inches to 2 inches will decrease Acceleration (deceleration here) forces by a factor of 4 (since it is linear and you can do all the math but the difference cancels to 2/0.5 = 4). By way of analogy, if you've seen a force draw curve for a bow....you are spreading out that peak and thereby lowering it....you do the same work but over more time so less work in any one period of time (and it is the peak that gets you).

Increasing stopping distance upon impact from extremely small amounts to simply a small amount is used in many safety applications and undergirds some basic concepts.

Consider somewhat compacted sand (silicon dioxide) versus much harder sandstone (same stuff packed more). If you fall and strike your head on compact sand the sand only gives an inch or so, but it is much preferable to the close to zero give of the sandstone. This is in part why we'd call one surface "softer" than another. Same thing with the hard foam in a bicycle helmet. It only gives an inch or so but that is enough to save your skull.

If you sit in a saddle with a dynamic rope tether and gently bounce, you'll notice the small amount of stretch even with gentle body weight and it becomes somewhat obvious it would help you.

I've had folks quibble with me over using the Work equation as being too simplistic. Yes, it is the first back of the envelope way I'd expect a physicist to approach this, but it is not a full simulation. I give you that, but it is a close enough for now approach....such as neglecting pipe friction when determining approximate pressure in a pipe given the amount of water above the location (hydraulic head).

You can easily find a good test that informs this. Drop tests with short nylon vs. dyneema loop slings. The nylon sling is often rated significantly lower than the dyneema sling, yet when both have a sufficient dynamic force (dropping a few hundred pounds with a fall factor of 2), then routinely the nylon sling survives and the dyneema one does not. This indicates that the peak force is below the lower rated nylon sling for its drop but higher than the higher rated dyneema sling for its drop.

This is not intuitive in part because it happens so quickly that we can't see it. In comparison, when someone falls a long distance on a dynamic rope and they spring around like a trampoline, then we can see that with our naked eye.
 
In our application using dynamic rope vs static would probably be like the difference between punching concrete or wood, both are hard but one is just a bit “softer”.

This is an excellent analogy.

The bit of give is in part what gives us the subjective impression of "soft".

For instance, why does everyone intuitively know it is better to fall on hard dirt than on concrete? Why does a foot of airbag mean the difference between walking away from an accident and being snapped in half (in an extreme case)?

I encourage everyone to buy a short piece of dynamic rope for a tether and try it. If you know how to tie your own tether, then this is maybe a $20 investment. Then, bounce in your saddle at ground level with a dynamic and static tether and note the difference.

It is only a short give when gently sitting into it, so I do not notice any sag or difference when hunting with it.
 
Lots of good input on this topic. My solution to the whole debate regarding dynamic vs. static rope is to use a Yates Screamer between my bridge and tether rope. According to the owner of the company, even a short fall will activate it enough to lessen the fall to a level that is considered safe. He said that he has sold many to hunters that are on ropes in trees and the results have been positive. I hope I will never have to put it to the test, but for me it provides a little peace of mind. Stay safe no matter which path you pick.
. ,
 
Lots of good input on this topic. My solution to the whole debate regarding dynamic vs. static rope is to use a Yates Screamer between my bridge and tether rope. According to the owner of the company, even a short fall will activate it enough to lessen the fall to a level that is considered safe. He said that he has sold many to hunters that are on ropes in trees and the results have been positive. I hope I will never have to put it to the test, but for me it provides a little peace of mind. Stay safe no matter which path you pick.
. ,

I've considered this. If I one stick climbed, I'd probably use one.

The tether is attached to a friction hitch, the friction hitch is attached to the Screamer, and the Screamer is attached to the saddle bridge?
 
I dont know ...i need redundancy.i dont know what it is but i should be scared without it....5000 lbs.of it...on my legstrap or pouches or something right.incase i fall 50 feet on a 20 foot climb where im carefully calmly and quietly tied to a tree thinking about getting a deer .not accidently bungie jumping.just dont fall ,and dont think about falling.its like meditating for it to manifest.be carefull and think about a deer walking by.you can hang yourself with a shoe lace.and if you change your mind you aint getting down if you try.for what we are actualy doing .is one going to save you more life.
 
agreed. I use dynamic rope for JRB climbing, it’s small, light and if the hownot2 guys can slack line on it and canyon swing, I’ll never come close to breaking strength no matter what fall I have at the height I climb.


This is an excellent analogy.

The bit of give is in part what gives us the subjective impression of "soft".

For instance, why does everyone intuitively know it is better to fall on hard dirt than on concrete? Why does a foot of airbag mean the difference between walking away from an accident and being snapped in half (in an extreme case)?

I encourage everyone to buy a short piece of dynamic rope for a tether and try it. If you know how to tie your own tether, then this is maybe a $20 investment. Then, bounce in your saddle at ground level with a dynamic and static tether and note the difference.

It is only a short give when gently sitting into it, so I do not notice any sag or difference when hunting with it.
 
So these guys seem to know what they are talking about. Looking at the forces generated falling on ropes and comparing static vs dynamic ropes etc. Interesting stuff. Definitely rock climbing (they go into forces that break anchors and other gear etc) but another good reminder to not have slack.

I noticed Ryan said the C-IV has a polypropylene core, it does, but it is a small inner core, the majority of the core being nylon.
 
I've considered this. If I one stick climbed, I'd probably use one.

The tether is attached to a friction hitch, the friction hitch is attached to the Screamer, and the Screamer is attached to the saddle bridge?
That is correct. I use a Yates Shorty Screamer. It is a little more compact but operates the same.
 
That is correct. I use a Yates Shorty Screamer. It is a little more compact but operates the same.

How do you connect the friction hitch to the screamer?

Do you hang from the tether with the screamer in place? I'd be half afraid it would open on me while just chilling out.

How much length does it add? I looked online and they don't tell you any dimensions.
 
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How do you connect the friction hitch to the screamer?

Do you hang from the tether with the screamer in place? I'd be half afraid it would open on me while just chilling out.

How much length does it add? I looked online and they don't tell you any dimensions.
About 6" including the loops on both ends. They aa bright color so I sewed a thin camo fleece material open sleeve over them using easily broken thread that should not interfere with their function.
 
About 6" including the loops on both ends. They aa bright color so I sewed a thin camo fleece material open sleeve over them using easily broken thread that should not interfere with their function.

you hang off the screamer and it doesn't deploy?
 
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