From the ground with a rifle and maybe some concerns.

[ShooterMike]

So I have gained the good fortune of being able to hunt the airport where I work, on a Kill Permit. Got out at 4pm and at 550pm I shot one with my 300 Blackout bolt gun. I started reloading a few years ago and still don’t know squat, but I was thinking that I have a round dialed in for deer hunting.

I’m using 190gr Maker Rex projectiles and H110 powder and 1085fps and suppressed. Bullets 2 1/2 MOA. MPBR is 103yd for a 6” circle.

I shot a doe at 71 yards this afternoon. She was broadside, and right at the edge of the tree line down on my left. Mule kicked. There was zero blood trail. When I went looking she was 15 yards inside the tree line. The entry wound was higher than I’d like, but accurate for me holding on the heart and considering the MPBR profile for this subsonic bullet. Rolled her over and there was a hole over the last rib. Very odd. It’s like the bullet entered and made a radical right turn. Either way …. 15 yards snd she died quick. When I field dressed her, her lungs were mashed up pretty nasty.

Got her home and skinned her. The bullet was lodged under her skin, and it was rib fragments that caused the “exit wound”. I was quite surprised to find the bullet.

Here’s my Ghost Blind ground blind set up can you see it ?

And here’s the 190gr Maker Rex I pulled out of her hide:

From a reloading perspective should I consider any changes? For what it’s worth, I have zero experience hunting with rifles. This is the first deer I’ve ever killed with a rifle. I’ve been a bowhunter for the last 25 years, and only used shotguns for the 10 years before that.


Semper Fi,
Mike

 

[CZMark]

I was never a fan of solid copper bullets, but that seems to have done a good job for you.

 

[MattMan81]

Never reloaded anything in my life. But have you messed around with weights and powder configurations? Few people I have talked to about it, seems to be the key. The right combo for your rifle. Little more or less of one or the other to find something that flies right out of the barrel.
I could be full of it. So feel free for anyone else to correct me.
Nice set up btw.

 

[WPS87]

I would expect to have some tumbling with a bullet that expands like that at that muzzle velocity. I also ran it thru a ballistic calculator and guessed on a lot of the information and it shows around 450 ish foot pounds of energy at 100 yards. That’s around what a .40 cal has at the muzzle. Have you played with seating depth or amount of powder? When I work a load in I find saami data and start a couple grains under and work up to max load looking for pressure signs. I also find the lands and then back off .01 to .015 thousandths.

Some rifles love being jammed up to the lands and some don’t care. It all depends on how crazy you want to go with it. But you can tighten the groups up for sure if that’s something you want to do.

 

[Exhumis]

That looks about par for the course with an expanding subsonic round.

 

[Blacksmith]

I think each rifle is different and my Savage 110 in .270 likes 150 gr. S.P. I've shot 50 does this summer and my 130 Gr. Hornady Ballistic would completely jell the front of a deer but never exit and no blood trail at all. The 150 S.P. will exit the shoulder every time and leave a trail but they most always drop on the spot w/a poke through both shoulders. Hard to believe a different round can make so much difference in the outcome.

 

[LoadedLimbs]

I was never a fan of solid copper bullets, but that seems to have done a good job for you.

@ShooterMike - my two cents: I agree with @CZMark - solid copper bullets have not performed well for me (personally) on whitetails - but yours did an adequate job. (This time)

I once made a 50 yard broadside shot with good placement on a large doe, and didn’t get the expansion needed to drop her quickly - the bullet just drilled a .30 caliber hole through her lungs and exited. She easily went 250 yards in cover before laying down and dying. I used a bolt action rifle chambered in .308 Win with a Barnes TTSX 150gr BT all copper bullet at 2900 fps muzzle velocity. The lack of bullet expansion passing through the soft tissue of that doe made it a very difficult tracking job because there was so little blood to find. It was almost too dark to see when I found her over an hour later.

I think the subsonic muzzle velocity of your hand load gave the bullet the opportunity to expand before lodging under the skin on the opposite side, giving you a better result. You also hit bone that fragmented and became another projectile, creating another wound channel. The expansion of the bullet looks impressive, but it’s actually under-expanded. The petals aren’t fully curled back toward the base, and the bullet didn’t exit the doe because your velocity was so low. If you’re willing to increase the load to make the muzzle velocity supersonic, you’ll get more complete expansion as long as the bullet opens up. But if you push it TOO fast, an all copper bullet won’t always give reliable expansion in a soft tissue broadside shot on a whitetail.

I’d switch to a high quality lead core, copper jacketed bullet that won’t separate as it penetrates. But I’d also use a supersonic load with the lead core bullet. (If you’re not required by the airport to use an all copper bullet for that special hunting permit you have.)

 

[NMSbowhunter]

I worked up a very similar load for a buddy. He has a Ruger Ranch 1-7 twist. I ended up using Lehigh Defense 194 Max X over 8.4 grains of Lil'gun with a light crimp at the cannelure, cci small rifle primers (subsonic). He's taken 3 or 4 deer so far with them. 50 yards and in it is a tack driver. I seem to remember they got a little squirrely when we shot them out to 100. This was several years ago. He keeps all shots within 50 so it isn't a problem. We were discussing these styles of projectiles, at this velocity, and both agreed since they are not traveling fast enough to behave like a rifle bullet and impart hydrostatic shock, they are really more akin to a broadhead in that they lacerate as the open petals spin through the deer.

It looks like you are getting pretty good performance with the Makers. As others have suggested, just try tweaking the seating depth a bit.

Note, for those not familiar with the Makers and Lehigh bullets, they are specially designed to work at subsonic velocities and if you pushed them to regular 308 or 30-06 velocities they would come unglued.

 

[ShooterMike]

I worked up a very similar load for a buddy. He has a Ruger Ranch 1-7 twist. I ended up using Lehigh Defense 194 Max X over 8.4 grains of Lil'gun with a light crimp at the cannelure, cci small rifle primers (subsonic). He's taken 3 or 4 deer so far with them. 50 yards and in it is a tack driver. I seem to remember they got a little squirrely when we shot them out to 100. This was several years ago. He keeps all shots within 50 so it isn't a problem. We were discussing these styles of projectiles, at this velocity, and both agreed since they are not traveling fast enough to behave like a rifle bullet and impart hydrostatic shock, they are really more akin to a broadhead in that they lacerate as the open petals spin through the deer.

It looks like you are getting pretty good performance with the Makers. As others have suggested, just try tweaking the seating depth a bit.

Note, for those not familiar with the Makers and Lehigh bullets, they are specially designed to work at subsonic velocities and if you pushed them to regular 308 or 30-06 velocities they would come unglued.

Seating depth has been a challenge with the Makers and this gun. Using 9.4gr of H110 I end up with an ever-so-lightly compressed load. The ogive on the Maker Rex 190gr is so far forward, it lightly kisses the lands. I don’t have any room to go either way with these.

I do have some Hornady 190gr Sub X projectiles, and I may do some load development with them, but initially my desire was the gnarly petaling of the Maker Rex.

The airport is a small county airport with just a few small wooded lots on the 290 acres. They are packed full of deer though. Because of where the wooded lots are located, I think a suppressed subsonic bullet that isn’t going to travel far is the safest approach.

In the absence of the hydroshock from supersonic speeds, I’m curious now if the reliable expansion of the Hornady SubX would be more preferred over the large petaling of the Maker Rex. I don’t think the Sub X would have the same tendencies of erratic travel through tissue. But then again, yesterdays results indicate profound lethality.

I’m not shooting beyond 100yds with this setup. In the event the deer was to run off, it’s not going to be a lost deer here- that’s just not possible.


Semper Fi,
Mike

 

[NMSbowhunter]

That expansion looks like plenty from the Maker, especially at 100+ yards. I bet they would have folded back more with a 50-yard hit. My buddy has had passthroughs on all his deer with his setup but, then again, all deer were within 50. He found one slug in the bark of a pine tree behind where a doe was standing but it was running out of gas by that point. I'll see if I can track down the picture he sent me. I was pretty impressed.

 

[Loopwing]

Getting the mushroom you want is the problem we are finding shooting suppressed and sub-sonic. My buddy has been doing really well with the old lead soft tips in his Ruger American 300. We are sighted in for 100 yards through the can. Usually making clover leafs in the target. Those lead soft tips through both lungs is devastating!

 

[CZMark]

If the powder is only lightly compressed, you should be able to seat the bullet a few thousandths deeper. My limited experience with copper bullets showed they shoot best with a fair amount of jump before hitting the lands.

Alternatively, is there another powder you can use (and can find) that leaves a bit more space in the case for seating?

 

[ShooterMike]

If the powder is only lightly compressed, you should be able to seat the bullet a few thousandths deeper. My limited experience with copper bullets showed they shoot best with a fair amount of jump before hitting the lands.

Alternatively, is there another powder you can use (and can find) that leaves a bit more space in the case for seating?

Thanks, I’ll do some more experimenting with searing depth then. Being new to reloading I’m extra cautious since I don’t have much of a reference. I was using CFE BLK and changed to the H110 to get a little more space in the case. I’ll do some research and see if I can find another powder to give some more wiggle room.

I’ve relied a lot on Johnnys Reloading Bench YouTube channel for learning 300 blackout stuff.


Semper Fi,
Mike

 

[neonomad]

For all the pros of lead, I’m done with it unless I’m directing it all to the same piece of dirt (practice).

Shout out from another ghost blind user, they’re so cool.

 

[ShooterMike]

For all the pros of lead, I’m done with it unless I’m directing it all to the same piece of dirt (practice).

Shout out from another ghost blind user, they’re so cool.

And it seems we’re seeing the beginnings of an effort to limit/ban the use of lead in some hunting locations too.


Semper Fi,
Mike

 

[bigmike23]

300 blackout IMO is not adequate for deer. When it comes to rifles, I consider "adequate" to mean you place the crosshairs on the vitals, and not matter the shot angle or bone in the way youre gonna get thru and thru penetration.
Thru and thru penetration is critical to create a sucking chest wound.
1000 ft lbs of energy is the recommended MINIMUM on deer sized game. And according to your load data, you're at half that. Combine that with a bullet that is designed with that much expansion and I consider it a miracle you found her.
Don't know what your rules are at the airport, but forget subsonic rounds and load the most accurate but also hottest load recipe you can find. I'd stick with a bullet that doesn't expand so much.
I vehemently disagree about not liking copper bullets. Ive used Barnes TTSX for years now and load them for my whole family. I have never ever seen one fail to expand and far more importantly, fail to penetrate. That have 100% retention. They turn a 243 Winchester into a consistent bone smasher on deer sized game.
The rings keep pressures way down as a bonus as well. It is the finest hunting bullet ever designed imo.
Any negativity on them is usually mixed up with Barnes bullets before they put the rings on them. Those were terrible. That ran consistently high pressure. The barrel got fouled pretty quick. And they didn't expand great at all.

 

[ShooterMike]

300 blackout IMO is not adequate for deer. When it comes to rifles, I consider "adequate" to mean you place the crosshairs on the vitals, and not matter the shot angle or bone in the way youre gonna get thru and thru penetration.
Thru and thru penetration is critical to create a sucking chest wound.
1000 ft lbs of energy is the recommended MINIMUM on deer sized game. And according to your load data, you're at half that. Combine that with a bullet that is designed with that much expansion and I consider it a miracle you found her.
Don't know what your rules are at the airport, but forget subsonic rounds and load the most accurate but also hottest load recipe you can find. I'd stick with a bullet that doesn't expand so much.
I vehemently disagree about not liking copper bullets. Ive used Barnes TTSX for years now and load them for my whole family. I have never ever seen one fail to expand and far more importantly, fail to penetrate. That have 100% retention. They turn a 243 Winchester into a consistent bone smasher on deer sized game.
The rings keep pressures way down as a bonus as well. It is the finest hunting bullet ever designed imo.
Any negativity on them is usually mixed up with Barnes bullets before they put the rings on them. Those were terrible. That ran consistently high pressure. The barrel got fouled pretty quick. And they didn't expand great at all.

Thanks for the input. One of the reasons I chose subsonic is for safety in the airport. Hunting near a taxiway and runway, and a tarmac, and don’t need bullets traveling any farther than necessary. And doing it suppressed reduces the chances of 911 calls for ‘shots fired at the airports.

I understand what you’re sayin about the necessary energy, however, that isn’t the end-all-be-all. Expansion after penetration is important. As I mentioned, the internal trauma was tremendous. At 71yds the deer ran 15 yards and collapsed. Really. No exaggeration. 15 yards.

Part of the energy requirement you mention is the result of most rifle shots being at distances longer than 100yds, and needing the extra energy to create expansion of the projectile. If I were shooting farther I’d certainly build a different round. The 300 blackout was built for this kind of “work”. The Maker Rex 190gr and Hornady SubX bullets were built for expansion at lower energy, which again changes the 1000# energy rule. It’s one of those things that’s not absolute.

As far as sucking chest wounds, I’m not sure how literally you are talking, but it takes more than a through and through. For that matter a single hole can cause a sucking chest wound. The requirement for a sucking chest wound is depending upon airflow and pressure differentials inside and outside the chest cavity. A bullet sized hole will not create a sucking chest wound because the chest cavity will fill with air through the air drawn in from the trachea faster than it can from the hole in the chest. When a hole in the chest and draw in enough air to offset a pressure differential, when the diaphragm and intercostal muscles contract, air is drawn in from outside the chest wall at a near-equal flow rate as through the trachea.

To further illustrate this point, in a pneumothorax (collapsed lung), we insert a chest tube and set it to suction at 20cmH2O. The adult sized chest tube is typically a 32fr, which is about the size of an index finger. This draws out the air from around the lung tissue and allows air entering the lung tissue to inflate the lung, and expand. Expansion happens because of the lower pressure created inside the chest cavity and outside the lung tissue. In a sucking chest wound, the size of the hole would also prevent the creation of a pressure differential.

Back to your original point though, the ballistics of the 300AAC kinda break the rules …. Bullet dependent. Creating expansion at subsonic speeds is the variable.

Interesting debate. Thanks again for your input.


Semper Fi,
Mike

 

[bigmike23]

Thanks for the input. One of the reasons I chose subsonic is for safety in the airport. Hunting near a taxiway and runway, and a tarmac, and don’t need bullets traveling any farther than necessary. And doing it suppressed reduces the chances of 911 calls for ‘shots fired at the airports.

I understand what you’re sayin about the necessary energy, however, that isn’t the end-all-be-all. Expansion after penetration is important. As I mentioned, the internal trauma was tremendous. At 71yds the deer ran 15 yards and collapsed. Really. No exaggeration. 15 yards.

Part of the energy requirement you mention is the result of most rifle shots being at distances longer than 100yds, and needing the extra energy to create expansion of the projectile. If I were shooting farther I’d certainly build a different round. The 300 blackout was built for this kind of “work”. The Maker Rex 190gr and Hornady SubX bullets were built for expansion at lower energy, which again changes the 1000# energy rule. It’s one of those things that’s not absolute.

As far as sucking chest wounds, I’m not sure how literally you are talking, but it takes more than a through and through. For that matter a single hole can cause a sucking chest wound. The requirement for a sucking chest wound is depending upon airflow and pressure differentials inside and outside the chest cavity. A bullet sized hole will not create a sucking chest wound because the chest cavity will fill with air through the air drawn in from the trachea faster than it can from the hole in the chest. When a hole in the chest and draw in enough air to offset a pressure differential, when the diaphragm and intercostal muscles contract, air is drawn in from outside the chest wall at a near-equal flow rate as through the trachea.

To further illustrate this point, in a pneumothorax (collapsed lung), we insert a chest tube and set it to suction at 20cmH2O. The adult sized chest tube is typically a 32fr, which is about the size of an index finger. This draws out the air from around the lung tissue and allows air entering the lung tissue to inflate the lung, and expand. Expansion happens because of the lower pressure created inside the chest cavity and outside the lung tissue. In a sucking chest wound, the size of the hole would also prevent the creation of a pressure differential.

Back to your original point though, the ballistics of the 300AAC kinda break the rules …. Bullet dependent. Creating expansion at subsonic speeds is the variable.

Interesting debate. Thanks again for your input.


Semper Fi,
Mike

Good info on the sucking chest wound. 2 holes are still better than one.
I would have linked a video to whom I consider the best gun YouTuber there is, Gunblue490 on the 300 blackout. But I can't seem to find it. He must have taken it down for hate comments.
He thoroughly went over the ballistics and was not impressed whatsoever. Even calling it the 300 so what.
If your dead set on sub sonic, I still wouldn't want wide expanding bullets. Id even start looking at hard cast possibly

 

[ShooterMike]

Good info on the sucking chest wound. 2 holes are still better than one.
I would have linked a video to whom I consider the best gun YouTuber there is, Gunblue490 on the 300 blackout. But I can't seem to find it. He must have taken it down for hate comments.
He thoroughly went over the ballistics and was not impressed whatsoever. Even calling it the 300 so what.
If your dead set on sub sonic, I still wouldn't want wide expanding bullets. Id even start looking at hard cast possibly

Agreed. 2 holes better than one. And I was quite surprised to see what I saw in that regard.

All this talk is making me even more interested in an 800black out now, lol. Garand Thumb has a good review of its ridiculous penetration. I don't know what kind of load data is out there for it yet, though.

 

[woodsdog2]

And it seems we’re seeing the beginnings of an effort to limit/ban the use of lead in some hunting locations too.


Semper Fi,
Mike

I’m a hunter Ed instructor and luckily our state is trying an informational/ educational approach to steering people away from lead showing X-rays of game hit with lead bullets and all the microscopic lead particles that break off into the meat that is potentially consumed. I can’t believe how far the fragments end up from the original hit sight on the animal.