kentucky22869
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- Mar 7, 2020
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just curious guys. how flat does your bow shoot with these heavier arrows? i shoot a 60lb mathews and am flat to about 28yds with my gold tips and expandable broadheads
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Heavy arrow setups
- Thread starter mattpsu1
- Start date
The top three pins are sighted in at 20, 25, and 30 yards. I have yet to set the other two for 35 and 40, but I suspect they will drop even more. You can see my arrow set up in post #17 of this thread. These 5 yard gaps are similar to my 10 yard gaps with a 420 grain arrow. So my answer would be that a 620 grain arrow coming out of a #60 bow isn’t very flat.
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- Jun 17, 2020
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Thanks Tom, I did end up ordering a half dozen of the Gen 1s. Full length, Right wing Shield Fletched and weight to get to 650 for $89. Pretty good deal. I may order another half dozen later on when the Gen 2s come out with the Samurais if that’s the head I end up going with. At the moment deciding between them and the Cutthroats.
That should be an easy choice.... structural integrity#1
rutjr
Well-Known Member
I bought some 250gr Cutthroats unsharpened. Today I worked on one for about 30 minutes and the bevel has a mirror finish and is scary sharp.
I should say rough sharpened instead of unsharpened. They come with a burr on the edge and a grind finish.
I should say rough sharpened instead of unsharpened. They come with a burr on the edge and a grind finish.
How big is the fletching on those? I was looking at them.
How
How tall are they?
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- Jun 17, 2020
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Cannot answer that. They are not here yet
The feathers are 5/8" tall. I don't have the vanes so I can't measure those for you.
BTW, Ashby advocates using an A&A style feather for a high FOC/heavy arrow build. A&A are hard to find and very limited in length, so you pretty much have to cut your own. The main thing Ashby pushes with A&A is they are 1/2" high. I think I saw A&A feathers on the Tuffhead site, but they were only 2" long if I'm remembering correctly. I shoot 4" so I tried cutting my own. I wasn't happy with my cutting skill so I went back to the Trueflight 4" shield cut. They work fine.
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For an "economical" approach I use full length (30") Gold Tip 500 spine Hunters, Gold Tip 100 grain inserts and a 250 grain tip\VPA 2 blade broad head, total arrow weight 610 grains.
I have found that the heavy arrows staiblize my shot (bow) better, so my accuracy has increased, as my original set up was 565 gr. arrow.
3 - 4" shield cut feathers, might go to 3" feathers as I am convinced the arrow is what scares the deer the most , especially if your bow is quiet
My bow set up is 45 lb. @ 28" 58" DAS recurve, shooting off the shelf (built in "bump" on the shelf), slightly past center.
I have 3 other shooters that I shoot with that use a very similar setup, 45 lb bows, but they tweeked the over all length of the arrows slightly, but use identical components.
Complete pass through's on 5 different deer, great blood trails, short recovery distances, usually with in site.
Bows are extremely quiet, deer are not overly agitated after the shot, they are just not sure what happened.
And it all happens out of a JX3..........
I have found that the heavy arrows staiblize my shot (bow) better, so my accuracy has increased, as my original set up was 565 gr. arrow.
3 - 4" shield cut feathers, might go to 3" feathers as I am convinced the arrow is what scares the deer the most , especially if your bow is quiet
My bow set up is 45 lb. @ 28" 58" DAS recurve, shooting off the shelf (built in "bump" on the shelf), slightly past center.
I have 3 other shooters that I shoot with that use a very similar setup, 45 lb bows, but they tweeked the over all length of the arrows slightly, but use identical components.
Complete pass through's on 5 different deer, great blood trails, short recovery distances, usually with in site.
Bows are extremely quiet, deer are not overly agitated after the shot, they are just not sure what happened.
And it all happens out of a JX3..........
Is A&A a brand or a type? I remember something about 1/2". Was it a minimum or no more than? My old bow has 5" feather right wing spins. They flew awsome. But they are really big. My new bow has a QAP rest on it. It's nice but does not offer a lot of clearance for bigger fletching/feathers. I am probably going to put my old rip cord on, since it has a lot more clearance. Seems most Feathers these days are made for traditional hunters and are BIG. I haven't seen a lot for compact RW feathers. Where else can I look? I was curious what the grizzle stick feathers are. Building adult arrows isn't cheap. I like the victory stuff but, I want to build my own. Seems like they really are geared towards the shops making them for you. According to the calculations I can get the Apollo's to get me to 20% but I will be closer to 700gr. Those momentum's can get me 20% + at 650.
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I have pins at 20, 30, 40, and 50 yds. I only need the 40 and 50 pins for elk hunting since the shots out here can be further. However if it was just a WT only set up I would only need a 20 and 30 yd pin. I could probably get away with only a 20. I pre-range everything. I know the yardage before the shot. 95% of my bowkills are 30 yds and under. 90% are 20 yds and under. Back in the day, 40 years ago we didn't have flat shooting bows. We were killing em' then. And LOTs of them. You just have to know how to adjust. Yard estimation is a forgotten skill that many of today's bowhunter have never learned because they never had to. Hitting them is only part of the the battle, what happens after the hit is what matters.
A&A (stands for Ashby & Adcock) is an Ashby "invention". They are 1/2" high maximum (not minimum). Length varies depending on how well your arrows fly with broad heads. Ed advocates them being as short as you can get away with. He also talks about adding a "turbulator" to the shaft. A turbulator is a tiny wrap (kinda like pin stipe) that is placed just in front of the fletching. It's purpose is to disrupt the airflow just in front of the fletch to create a bit of air turbulence as it passes the fletch. He claims that turbulence helps the small fletch stabilize more effectively.
A&A feathers weren't something you could buy as far as I know. I think Tuffhead did have some 2" A&A. So you needed to cut your own. These are obviously for someone that fletches their own shafts. But I just looked on the Tuffhead site and they do now sell an A&A template for making your own from full length feathers. Heck, you could cut down a factory feather to form an A&A. I have a bunch of 5" parabolic laying around, I could turn them into A&As.
Here's the link to the template on Tuffhead...
Tuffhead Broadheads-Home Page #1 In Single-Bevel | Sirius Archery Products
You can hunt with confidence, knowing that the TUFFHEAD™ single bevel and three blade broadheads. TuffHead has unsurpassed penetration.
www.tuffhead.com
More points on fletching...
Ashby says to glue them perfectly straight on the shaft. No helical and no off-set. I can say without a doubt that these shoot so much quieter than the old style that I shot...the 5" parabolic, off-set, helical configuration. We stood down range and listened and compared the arrows in flight...The A&A were much quieter in flight.
Humm. I thought you wanted the rotation? Or is the bevel on the arrow enough? I was under the impression you needed the extra rotation to penetrate bone. I think that's what RF said. I Better double check. Strait fletching makes finding stuff easier. Except I wish I would have purchased a strait clamp for my blitzenburg now instead of that right...A&A (stands for Ashby & Adcock) is an Ashby "invention". They are 1/2" high maximum (not minimum). Length varies depending on how well your arrows fly with broad heads. Ed advocates them being as short as you can get away with. He also talks about adding a "turbulator" to the shaft. A turbulator is a tiny wrap (kinda like pin stipe) that is placed just in front of the fletching. It's purpose is to disrupt the airflow just in front of the fletch to create a bit of air turbulence as it passes the fletch. He claims that turbulence helps the small fletch stabilize more effectively.
A&A feathers weren't something you could buy as far as I know. I think Tuffhead did have some 2" A&A. So you needed to cut your own. These are obviously for someone that fletches their own shafts. But I just looked on the Tuffhead site and they do now sell an A&A template for making your own from full length feathers. Heck, you could cut down a factory feather to form an A&A. I have a bunch of 5" parabolic laying around, I could turn them into A&As.
Here's the link to the template on Tuffhead...
Tuffhead Broadheads-Home Page #1 In Single-Bevel | Sirius Archery Products
You can hunt with confidence, knowing that the TUFFHEAD™ single bevel and three blade broadheads. TuffHead has unsurpassed penetration.
More points on fletching...
Ashby says to glue them perfectly straight on the shaft. No helical and no off-set. I can say without a doubt that these shoot so much quieter than the old style that I shot...the 5" parabolic, off-set, helical configuration. We stood down range and listened and compared the arrows in flight...The A&A were much quieter in flight.
Even an unfletched arrow with a field point has some degree of rotation in flight. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that, but it does. There are some Youtube vids that confirm that.
Now, a feather, even one glued on straight, will also impart rotation an arrow so that's where the majority of rotation influence comes from. There is also a little that comes from a single bevel head. All that aspect of rotation is for stability in flight. The penetration factor is because of the forces the single bevel imparts during penetration when it meets resistance. The opposing bevels (one bevel on each blade) give the head a twisting action as it meets resistance. The greater the resistance, the more benefit of the twisting action. Heavy bone creates more resistance to the head (ANY head, both single or double bevel head) than flesh. That twisting force shatters and splits bone due to the prying leverage from the twisting, single bevel head which opens up a larger channel thru the bone for the arrow to travel. A double bevel head has no twisting force during penetration so it must rely strictly on the momentum of the arrow to force it's way thru the bone.
A tapered shaft like a Momentum, also improves penetration better than a parallel shaft.
Here are some eye-opening videos on the tremendous damage a single bevel head does to bone.
Remember, eventually you will hit heavy bone on an animal. Even with a perfect, quartering away angle, you are basically aiming for the arrow to exit on the far shoulder. Single bevel, heavy arrows, high FOC is all about penetrating heavy bone and creating 2 holes...entrance AND exit. If we only ever shot perfectly broadside angles and hit strictly ribs, there would be little need to build these types of arrows. But eventually, you WILL hit bone. Heck, these animals move while our arrow is in flight. No matter how good of a shot you are on paper or 3D, the animal can dictate that your arrow doesn't hit where intended.
GrizzlyStik
And BTW, Bitzenburger jigs have nock receivers for L, R, or straight fletch. So you better check that you have the proper receiver. Look on the knob for a "R", "L" or "S".
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I use a one pin slider sight but I don't use the "slide" function at all once I have it set. I simply sight it in so that I hit in the 8" kill zone from 0 to about 30 yards. I just adjust the elevation until I can hold on the kill zone and hit in that kill zone when I'm holding the pin on the "elbow" of the deer or bear from 0 to about 30 yards. Once I have it set, I silver sharpie the mark that the slider pointer is on and tighten it down. I just make sure the slider pointer stays on that sharpie mark and I know that as long as the animal is within from 0 to about 30 yards (or my maximum effective range for that pin setting) I can concentrate on my form and aiming small to miss small. This is a simple hunting set up but it eliminates the need for a rangefinder etc. I've been using that simple system for years and its pretty bomb proof for killing game. So with this system you don't worry about range estimation for each shot as long as the buck is in your "zone" If you go to heavy arrows you just need to adjust your elevation settings. I used this same system with my "balanced" arrow set ups too before I went to a heavier arrow. Works the same just a different elevation setting.
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You definitely want rotation. The bevel alone is not enough. Helical fletching is the best. For 2 reasons,1st is better BH flight. I built my arrow this year w/ offset feathers. Great field point and bare shaft flight but very erratic BH flight. Switched to helical and perfect flight. BH's, field points and bare shafts all grouped together at 20 and 30 yds. You need a well tuned bow to do this. 2nd is the rotation definitely helps on bone hits. Single bevels crack the bone. The more the crack, the more pentration. More penetration is good! I've seen so many TV show where the deer runs off w/ half an arrow hanging out. IMO that not good. Makes blood trailing sketchy. I'd rather have 2 holes and my arrow sticking in the dirt!
So looks like the strait jig can get me a slight rotation. I couldn't find in the Ashby where they talked about feather height and spin on the arrow. Doesn't mean it's not there, I didn't re read the whole report. I emailed the ol RF and he said Ashby "believed" some rotation was good. To much slowed down the arrow, and if your arrow flight is perfect, there is no need to correct it.
I did pick up again where having the broadheads and collar bigger than the arrow can add up to 30% in penatration. So going to a smaller arrows is not a bad thing. I had in my mind it was less structural integrity. But if it's build well it will hold up.
I did pick up again where having the broadheads and collar bigger than the arrow can add up to 30% in penatration. So going to a smaller arrows is not a bad thing. I had in my mind it was less structural integrity. But if it's build well it will hold up.
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If you can get good BH flight w/ an offset jig then go for it. I could not good BH flight. I was lazy and fletched mine offset because I couldn't find my helical clamps. I called Troy and he said they were knuckleballing down to the target. He was right. O borrowed some helical clamps. Helical solved it. I should have known better. Back in the old days we never shot anything but feathers and helical fletching. The old timers knew a thing or 2 about getting good flight. Todays production arrows are all straight or slightly offset because it's easier and faster to fletch.