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Is the High FOC IDEA good or bad for the hunting community?

MattMan81

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So this really isn't about if you should or not. That has been run down several times in other threads. The question is just in general with the YouTube influence of THP, RF, and few others that have turned people on to single bevel and COC Broadheads. Is this good for the hunting community and most hunters? Didn't say all.
Example. My self never felt like my bow was an ethical killer on northern white tails.
Of the handful of deer I killed or hit. I never had an arrow pass completely through. It seemed like I should have been able to. My thoughts became to get a pass thru I needed to shot a 70lb plus 1200+ dollar bow. I wasen't into it enough to spend that kinda money, so I used a crossbow for a while. Until one shot didn't pass thru like it should have. So I was pondering this again. Then along came this guy RF singing the Ashby foundation stuff.
To be clear I had never tuned my bow. Didn't know there was such a thing. All the ads on TV and magazines said shot fast, big expandable blades for good blood trails. It worked until it didn't.
The people I grew up hunting with, we just practiced. The stuff out there did not stress tuning. And sounds like if it you went to a shop, there is no guarantee they were doing it right.
So if you think it's bad for hunting why?
@raisins I ask for your thoughts? I have noticed you are not a fan of high FOC. Even if your not, do you think it's good for the hunting community in general? Is it just the people presenting it? (RF as example)

If it has helped anyone else awsome. I'd like to hear your story. I know I am not the only one.
But does people shooting a heavier arrow make the community better or worse? If so why?

Let's have a pint and talk about.
 

Blacksmith

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Went with heavier shafts this year, more FOC, and 2 blade instead of 3. I am absolutely impressed. Shot thru two deer this week and stuck in the ground.10 point went 35 yds. Doe went 10. I am convinced a 2 blade all the way thru is better than 3 halfway thru. IMO. Maybe not for everyone but I,m lovin the bloodtrails.
 

Jeremy_D

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How can anyone question higher FOC being better is beyond me. Now, "heavy arrow" can be argued and when it is what the arrow is being used for and what a "heavy" arrow is also has to be mentioned. 550 grain arrow might be right for me, might be a straw to him, might be stupid over the top for you. We hunting whitetail, rabbits, elk,

Im past a pint my good man!!
 

MNFarmHunter

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Personally, I think this and everything else is solely a piece of the puzzle. Same with draw weight and many other things.

The simple question is whether you can be repeatedly accurate under varying conditions. My bow is set to 58# shooting standard carbon arrows and fixed blade heads. I can draw more weight and there are far better arrow setups but why? I think I’m very accurate with this setup so why change?

Now for the counter-point. This is also a hobby and much like reloading ammo, some get great enjoyment about chasing that perfect setup and there’s nothing wrong with that.

In short, I don’t think it’s that important but don’t snub my nose at those that do.


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SnakeEater

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Mostly good, people are now learning to tune and actually tuning their bows. That alone will lead to better accuracy no matter the head or weight so in theory will lead to better shot placement.
As far as the crazy heavy stuff for compounds goes I don’t think it’s necessary and probably overkill. I’m certain there is value to it but not enough data to determine the appropriate setups for modern compounds like there are with traditional bows.
I think anyone who doesn’t at least take something away from dr Ashby’s research is ignorant which IMO is most people these days but neither here nor there. He has to much data to support his claims but first and foremost he says shot the arrow with the appropriate trajectory for your needs. I think the ranch fairy blew things out of proportion in the way he presented the information. This lead to people going overboard to an extent.
overall people paying more attention to their gear in order to be more lethal is good. The rift it has created is really annoying to listen to though..
I personally have much more confidence in my arrows now, 500taw for compound and 650 for trad. Confidence provided to me from real world results.
My 2C.
 

MattMan81

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I think the ranch fairy blew things out of proportion in the way he presented the information. This lead to people going overboard to an extent.
Last year I kinda fell victim to that. I was shooting 755gr. I ended up there a little bit by accident. But was to close to season to turn back. I landed at 660 this year. Still a little on the heavy side I know. But I'm happy with it.
 

Jeremy_D

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3 years ago I shot a small (tender) 2 year old buck with a light setup and expendables slightly quartering away. Arrow deflected went down his body cavity. He didnt go far and died but I was unimpressed my new Mathews Tactic didnt get a pass threw at like 18 yards. My older brother loved it telling me Mathews are junk. Over the off season I learned about fixed heads and heaver arrows. It wasnt the bow! Last season a buck, probably a 3 year old and doe (2?) about the same distance 125 Magnus SerRazor Black Hornets with a 250 spine Sirus Vulcan 125 grain insert straight pass throughs no problem. Watched the buck go down in 60 heard the doe crash 40 yards(?) Im sold. Light arrows with mechanical heads are junk.
 

Jeremy_D

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Last year I kinda fell victim to that. I was shooting 755gr. I ended up there a little bit by accident. But was to close to season to turn back. I landed at 660 this year. Still a little on the heavy side I know. But I'm happy with it.
RF says 550 is plenty for whitetail. I got high this year also by accident. 710. Going to start over this year hoping to get my bow shoting good and be around 650
 

MNFarmHunter

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@SnakeEater said it well. It's good that more folks are taking a hard look at their setups and figuring stuff out for themselves instead of taking the word of a kid behind the counter at the proshop.
This is key.

Granted I have exactly 6 months of archery experience but pay attention to the "old guy" at the range or any place else. They have stuff that the internet ninja's would laugh at but can do things that leaves everyone in awe. The simple reason is they know their equipment, how to utilize it's strengths and overcome it's weaknesses.

There is nothing wrong with chasing the latest and greatest but never forget or let go of the basics.
 

MattMan81

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So shooting a 800gr log out of your bow with little to no experience with it, and little practice is not good for the hunting community. The results can still be a negative one. But an 800gr log that's been super tuned, and delivered down range with precision doesn't kill any better than a 430gr deliver with the same precision.
I think that's the other side of the coin? So what's good for the community and the hunter is to spend more time shooting and dialing in your bow. How ever you get there.
If you chose to hunt with a .410 or 50 bmg is up to you. As long as you use it correctly.
There we answered my thoughts.
Please close.. lol.
 

Jeremy_D

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So shooting a 800gr log out of your bow with little to no experience with it, and little practice is not good for the hunting community. The results can still be a negative one. But an 800gr log that's been super tuned, and delivered down range with precision doesn't kill any better than a 430gr deliver with the same precision.
I think that's the other side of the coin? So what's good for the community and the hunter is to spend more time shooting and dialing in your bow. How ever you get there.
If you chose to hunt with a .410 or 50 bmg is up to you. As long as you use it correctly.
There we answered my thoughts.
Please close.. lol.
Use a "heavy" arrow miss judge distance Opps. use a "light" arrow misjudge shot..Opps. Either Opps can happen with all the practice in the world. Find that happy medium. Why does every "heavy" arrow nonsayer start at a 750+ grain arrow? Who advocates that for whitetail? Medium weight arrow 550ish for whitetail is called plan B for a reason. Flat at 30-40 yards with plenty of push for a whitetail.
 

BOWHUNTER14

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Jul 17, 2019
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I switched to a heavier arrow and fixed blade heads this year because I lost a doe to under pentation. She was 6 yards from the tree when I shot and had placed my light fast arrow with a big mechanical right where it needed to be. But since it didn't pass threw I had no blood trail to follow. I found her about a month later in the thick brush about 70 yards from my stand. I don't look at heavy arrows as an excuse to take un ethical shots (quartering to) but sometimes you can do it all perfect and your equipment will let you down. I think the bigger names putting out info like this is good as long as they don't make it out to be an excuse to not practice in the off season or taking unethical shots.
 

Hunter260

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So I think the problem is there’s too many variables that all get changed at once for us to get a clear answer on what’s the most important thing about an arrow. Most bowhunters looking for better penetration dont just change heads or arrow weights. They do multiple things, when you get into the heavy arrow stuff usually you’ll do all of these things.

1. You build heavy arrows >550-600grains
2. You up your foc to >15%
3. You switch to smaller cut, razor sharp cut on contact heads
4. Your bow slows down (If you get deep in the Ashby stuff there’s some weird evidence that slow arrows penetrate better than fast arrows)
5. You take better shots (you have a slower bow and more bowhunting experience at this point)

I honestly believe the broadhead is probably the most important aspect of penetration. If it’s a small 2 blade it’ll pass through way way easier than a big mechanical 3 blade.

I think shoot a good sharp reasonably sized 2 blade broadhead and then make sure your arrow will tune and is as durable as possible. By then, most people will be holding a 500-600 grain arrow anyways.
 

manitoba450es

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Oct 31, 2018
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I'm headed down the high FOC / heavy arrow / cut on contact rabbit hole. I had a moose at 12 feet from a tree stand. I didn't hit exactly where I wanted and I watched the moose run away with a green luminok flag on his back. My arrow might have went in 4 inches. I have never been so disappointed in my life in a hunt. I didn't know any better. I didn't research enough. So then I found the ol' RF and thought this guy is a lunatic. But the things he said was stuff I was struggling with. The more I watched the more I tinkered the better and better my results keep getting. I have never been able to get a bare shaft to hit my target with the same orientation. The fletched arrows were III and the bareshafts were ///. I tried adjusting yoke twist and rest position. Nothing ever worked. The pro shop never mentioned spine. He said there are the arrows you need for your 100g heads. Then I bought the ethics test kit. I went right to 300g and the bareshaft arrows did something I've never seen before. They went like this \\\. I dropped to 225 they all went |||. Bareshaft fletched Broadheads didn't matter they were all grouped so tight I was damaging arrows. Best of all I as just burying arrows deeper into my target than ever before.
I was skeptical. I know my arrow is slower but now it has a thump instead of a thwack. The true test will be if I can get myself into a position where I have a chance at a moose with my bow again. This time I'll be loaded for cape Buffalo. The moose shouldn't stand a chance.

Mike

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Red Beard

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The more I watched the more I tinkered the better and better my results keep getting. I have never been able to get a bare shaft to hit my target with the same orientation. The fletched arrows were III and the bareshafts were ///. I tried adjusting yoke twist and rest position. Nothing ever worked. The pro shop never mentioned spine. He said there are the arrows you need for your 100g heads. Then I bought the ethics test kit. I went right to 300g and the bareshaft arrows did something I've never seen before. They went like this \\\. I dropped to 225 they all went |||. Bareshaft fletched Broadheads didn't matter they were all grouped so tight I was damaging arrows. Best of all I as just burying arrows deeper into my target than ever before.
I was skeptical. I know my arrow is slower but now it has a thump instead of a thwack.
Perfect example of the ah-ha moments happening all over the place. Folks end up with better tuned systems because they witness first hand how various spines/tip weights affect flight.

Love how you showed the relationship between ///, |||, and \\\ in what you were seeing. Well done!
 
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