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Mixed reads on Madrock Safeguard

boyne bowhunter

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Guys, the solution to this is super simple. There's no reason to complicate it. When you get into the tree and have your tether/rap line at the length you want it, simply tie off the grigri(or whatever) using the manufacturer recommended method. This allows the device to function as it should and you to safely go hands free. It is a very common operation and an important procedure to know to escape a belay in a rescue situation, or perform other rescue tasks. Sure, you lose the ability to change your tether length instantaneously, but all these other extra pieces of gear everyone is talking about do the same thing and add complication to a simple system. Tying off a grigri is simplier than an ATC(which uses a mule knot)takes literally 3 seconds and undoing it to change the length of the tether takes about the same. Here is the link to the petzl grigri manual for this operation:
I used this exact method for all the years I hung off the Safeguard/Grigri. It works great, is quick and there's no way for the device to slide by it. Add to that it's easy to take out, you just pull the tag end and its the simplest solution.

Cool diagram and technique. Thanks for sharing!

Question: what is the effective difference between this and an auto block clipped to your LB loop, in terms of risk to the belay device (assuming the autoblock cannot reach the device itself)?

I only ask because they seem to have the same effect on the brake hand side of the belay device to me, but that might be because I have no idea what I'm talking about.

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Again as @Vtbow so rightly pointed out I'm not the manufacturer either but I believe that the risk of installing a separate friction hitch below the device is that that if the Grigri/Safeguard runs onto it then the backup hitch could keep the mechanical device from camming. In the meantime the mechanical device is tending the backup hitch from above effectively releasing its grip. The result is the holding effect of each is negated by the other.

In the manufacturer's recommendation presented above the knot is secured around the mechanical device from above and can't slide down on its own. There's no way for the Grigri/Safeguard to slide by it.
 

TNSTAAFL

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Again as @Vtbow so rightly pointed out I'm not the manufacturer either but I believe that the risk of installing a separate friction hitch below the device is that that if the Grigri/Safeguard runs onto it then the backup hitch could keep the mechanical device from camming. In the meantime the mechanical device is tending the backup hitch from above effectively releasing its grip. The result is the holding effect of each is negated by the other.

In the manufacturer's recommendation presented above the knot is secured around the mechanical device from above and can't slide down on its own. There's no way for the Grigri/Safeguard to slide by it.
Thank you for contributing your experiences. Very helpful. 2 points/questions only meant to push the conversation and further my understanding:

1) the point made about the risk of the hitch below running up into the device seems widely documented around here. The answer from some has been to ensure that enough distance exists between the device and the hitch that it is not possible for the two to touch (long bridge, small hitch on LB loop, etc). The challenge to that solution has been, from at least @Fl Canopy Stalker I believe, is that the real problem is something about rope elongation and the hitch preventing slippage which could break the device, even if they don't touch (if I have that right, as I admit I don't understand the risk well).

2) I may not be seeing it correctly, but the diagram on the Petzl site does NOT seem to attach to the rope above the device. It is formed with a loop below the device as far as I can tell. This is why I asked how is that different from the friction hitch below, at least in addressing @Fl Canopy Stalker 's concern about slippage, elongation, and device breakage?

Complicated, but interesting stuff to talk about....
...with dudes I like talking about stuff with.


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Vtbow

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Thank you for contributing your experiences. Very helpful. 2 points/questions only meant to push the conversation and further my understanding:

1) the point made about the risk of the hitch below running up into the device seems widely documented around here. The answer from some has been to ensure that enough distance exists between the device and the hitch that it is not possible for the two to touch (long bridge, small hitch on LB loop, etc). The challenge to that solution has been, from at least @Fl Canopy Stalker I believe, is that the real problem is something about rope elongation and the hitch preventing slippage which could break the device, even if they don't touch (if I have that right, as I admit I don't understand the risk well).

2) I may not be seeing it correctly, but the diagram on the Petzl site does NOT seem to attach to the rope above the device. It is formed with a loop below the device as far as I can tell. This is why I asked how is that different from the friction hitch below, at least in addressing @Fl Canopy Stalker 's concern about slippage, elongation, and device breakage?

Complicated, but interesting stuff to talk about....
...with dudes I like talking about stuff with.


Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
1) the friction hitch below the device, if further enough away as required would be taking the majority of the rappelers weight, keeping the device from engaging 100%.

2) yes, the loop is passed through the biner, under the device, but in this situation the device is already camming(because you are tying it weighted) and WITH the rope which is passing through the device. Essentially, the sharper the bends in the "s" as a rope passes through a device, the more friction added. Tying it where/how the manufacturer suggests gives the device itself maximum friction and engagement.


Moral is, let the device do its job in the manner it was designed to.
 

Fairchild#17

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I've tried all different manners of getting up a tree, hunting, and rappelling........friction hitches, separate tethers, mechanical devices or not.
I've settled on using my rappel rope for everything.....climbing, hanging, and coming down on the same rope with the Madrock. It just simplifies things for me and does a great job when used correctly. I have had nothing but smooth rappels by giving the lever a full pull, feeding line with my other hand, and walking down the tree.
 

Loopwing

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The biggest thing we (myself included) are missing is the manufacturers of these devices do tons and tons of research and development. They run almost every scenario they/you can think of. If for no other reason is for fear of someone suing them. I deal with OSHA, NAVFAC, and USACE on a daily basis. Do you know what trump's every safety standard on their books.... MANUFACTURE'S RECOMMENDATIONS. If the manufacturer says to do it or says not to do it, the manufacture is right and 99.9% of the time have the research and development to prove it.
 
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gwhalin

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One random thought from reading this thread. The fact that people prefer the madrock to the GriGri to save weight is kinda hilarious. They are 46 grams (1.6 oz) different. I used to be an ultralight backpacker so I get the oz counting but not when it pertains to climbing.
 

Nchunter1989

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None of these mechanical devices are certified for hand free use.
Another component here is what diameter rope will you or are you running? People like the madrock safeguard because it has 8.9 to 11 mm rope diameter specs so you can run smaller diameter tough ropes like C-IV, OpLux, etc. Just remember that if you are running out of spec (smaller or larger diameter) that's a no-no and don't think just because you are at the higher end of the spec diameter and it's 'sticky' that it'll not slip. Anyway, just some additional thoughts.
Actually the Safeguard IS intended for hands free use, just read through the manufacturers specs. Rigging & camera operators are typically hands free roles. And, reading through the EU certification, it does have to meet certain hands free protocol.

And the rope spec is actually 8.1-11. That has been verified with Madrock multiple times.


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gwhalin

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The instructions that come with the Safefurd seem pretty clear on not releasing brake hand and the rope diameter though they do specify dynamic rope and not static.
2B47D607-F2EF-490A-8AD4-B30E73968BD6.jpeg3A0875DE-1F55-4909-A972-F19FFADD20F8.jpegD5B560BC-506C-412A-A0FC-0339086B934B.jpeg
 

Nchunter1989

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The instructions that come with the Safefurd seem pretty clear on not releasing brake hand and the rope diameter though they do specify dynamic rope and not static.
View attachment 72294View attachment 72295View attachment 72296
While actively climbing/belaying. You have to consider the context of the instructions.

From the manufacturer’s description & an email conversation I had with them earlier in the year. For me personally, that’s confirmation & I feel safe with that.




 

muzzyman88

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This is exactly what I've been dwelling over the last few days. I have complete confidence in the Safeguard but I always think of ways to back things up. That said, I'm a little confused by the Petzl diagram shared. I see a caribiner clipped to the loop once its passed through the biner that is attached to your bridge. Is that what I'm seeing?

I saw another post a long time ago, and I can't find it, that shows basically tying a figure 8 on a bight and clipping into the bridge biner. This seems like it would work, but then it goes against what Madrock says not to do.
 

Vtbow

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This is exactly what I've been dwelling over the last few days. I have complete confidence in the Safeguard but I always think of ways to back things up. That said, I'm a little confused by the Petzl diagram shared. I see a caribiner clipped to the loop once its passed through the biner that is attached to your bridge. Is that what I'm seeing?

I saw another post a long time ago, and I can't find it, that shows basically tying a figure 8 on a bight and clipping into the bridge biner. This seems like it would work, but then it goes against what Madrock says not to do.
Yes, that biner is there just to keep the loop end from pulling through accidentally and releasing the knot. It is not loaded in any way.
 

muzzyman88

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Yes, that biner is there just to keep the loop end from pulling through accidentally and releasing the knot. It is not loaded in any way.
Thanks buddy. Curious, couldn't you clip the loop into your bridge biner and accomplish the same? Just thinking out loud...
 

Vtbow

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Thanks buddy. Curious, couldn't you clip the loop into your bridge biner and accomplish the same? Just thinking out loud...
Uh, then you'd have to open your bridge biner your hanging on.....bad...

Also, you want it a different system that is releasable. If you some how fell and/or loaded it, you wouldn't be able to release the tie off....also bad.
 

muzzyman88

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Uh, then you'd have to open your bridge biner your hanging on.....bad...

Also, you want it a different system that is releasable. If you some how fell and/or loaded it, you wouldn't be able to release the tie off....also bad.
Makes sense. I see people clip stuff into their bridge biner line back bands as well as backing up the madrock with a prussic above it and clipping into their biner. But you're point on the load and not being able to free it makes perfect sense.
 
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