Tethered Mantis (L) vs. New Tribe Kite (Size 1)
I bought both figuring I would see which I like more. Here is my review.
I now have six hunts out of the Kite and two from the Mantis. My Mantis has a moderately functional defect in that the MOLLE loops were sewn shut. Appears someone went a little out of order sewing it. I contacted Greg and Ernie telling them to basically take their time dealing with it since I know they are dealing with a lot of bulllcrap already on both ends. As long as that gets resolved eventually I am cool.
It’s better than an unboxing. I will update once I get some all day sits, and late season cold weather gear. The durability obviously takes years to assess. But I feel I am ready to offer up this review by now.
In the end I reviewed two great saddles. The differences between these are minutiae. You cannot go wrong with either one. That said, here are some things I nitpicked. Keep in mind much of this is personal preference.
Weight and packability – Mantis wins here….but maybe not as much as you would think. Most of the difference boils down to the stock bridge material (climbing rope vs. amsteel). That said, I prefer a tubular webbing bridge, so either one I choose I will go that route. Additionally, I have gotten in the habit of wearing my saddle in, so the negligible weight difference is even more irrelevant. The old worn weight debate, right?
Lineman’s loops –Both are placed adequately and stay open nicely. The Mantis design is a smidge more forward and a bit larger, both making it easier to clip into by feel. Mantis wins this category.
Molle loops – A common complaint with the Kestrel was the too-tight MOLLE loops. The Kite loops are just right. My mantis loops as I said are non-functioning at the moment. I do appreciate the two MOLLE rows of the Kite whereas the Mantis has one. I clip my sticks and rope bag to the bottom row, just a little easier to access by feel.
Comfort – Generally, I had to give the edge to the Kite here. It just seems to “cup” my bum better and I don’t find myself adjusting pressure points as much. It’s pretty close though, almost negligible. I also think saddle comfort is a highly individual deal. See also the next two points though.
Bridge reinforcement - This is one thing that the Mantis just nailed. The reinforcement is tubular webbing threaded over the main piece of webbing. The Kite uses a similar setup, but just sewn layers of slightly beefier webbing. There is also a difference in the length of the reinforced portion. The reinforced portion of the Kite is 5 inches. The reinforced portion of the Mantis is 6.5 inches. And here we are balls deep in the minutiae….The Kite has this weird catch point that really, really bugs me. There is a “step down” of a couple millimeters between the reinforced portion and the non-reinforced portion of the bridge attachment. When the bridge snags on that catch point and gives under tension, for a millisecond you feel like you are free falling to your death. Obviously you are not, nonetheless I do not enjoy this surge of adrenaline. I’m not sure that is a sensation you ever become accustomed to. The Mantis, this is never an issue.
Adjustment – The Kite has a ladderlock that adjusts the lower webbing portion of the saddle that bears weight against the lower glutes/upper hamstrings. The Mantis has the same adjustment, but is optional due to the “Micro Adjusters” being removable with a G-hook. I for one don’t really understand the removable adjusters. But whatever. As for actually using the adjusters…I do not use them much in the tree. Just rare occasions to shift pressure points around. I always use them as I wear my saddle hiking in. It tightens everything up against my glutes so I don’t feel the saddle flopping around. The Kite has enough adjustment to do such. My Mantis (size Large) does not have enough adjustment to take up all the slack and floppity flops around. That to me is highly uncomfortable to walk in. To this point, in a very tight race, this ends up being pretty significantly the largest factor in my decision which saddle to stick with. I still may change my mind. Now too, there is a possibility of a fit issue and a Medium Mantis I may not have this issue. I may try one. We will see.
Leg buckles – the Mantis leg buckles are pretty ingenious. There is also a second attachment point that goes around the legs. That does nothing for me though. The Kite leg buckles are ok. They can be loud if you are not careful. It hasn’t been an issue for me, you just go slow and be careful not to clang them together. New Tribe clearly has a different philosophy on the load bearingness of the leg buckles and straps. I am no safety expert but I tend to side with the Tethered philosophy that the leg straps are not life safety weight bearing.
Waist buckles - I prefer the waist buckle on the Kite. It all stems from the way I hike in and use my saddle, in that for one I wear the saddle in. I also use a fixed bridge and put the saddle on like a shirt (as opposed to “stepping in” or putting it on like pants). So the clanky clasp buckle on the Mantis is pointless to me. But it is impressively light if that style is your cup of tea. I don’t love the Kite buckle but it works better for my usage. Bonus, both are interchangeable without sewing anything if you find a buckle you like more and want to take it to mod town without busting out the thread injector.
Bridge material – I don’t like either bridge stock. I would have to be inclined to give the Kite the nod here because bridge length remains adjustable. Amsteel is nifty I guess, but 30” is too long for my bridge. But again, that spliced bridge accounts for most of the Mantis’ weight advantage.
Durability – this one will be interesting to assess over time. The Kite, like I said in the reinforced portions appears a good bit beefier. Aside from the choice of bridge and webbing materials, this is the remaining weight difference. The Kite generally speaking has more/heavier webbing. Is it overbuilt, or will this lead to a more durable product? Over the course of 5-10 years this will be interesting to watch. I tend to think for normal hunter usage this won't be a factor.
Again two great saddles that are extremely similar. The differences are not significant. I think it’s pretty evident already this was a copycat business and that will probably continue. I feel modularity is really the logical next frontier from here. Custom buckles and bridge material/length seem to be the obvious starting place. I would have gladly paid for the ability to choose both.
End of season update 11/29:
Felt I should circle back and update how the rest of the season transpired.
I continued to basically alternate between the two saddles for the couple weeks that followed my original write up.
The last week of October I received another Mantis to exchange to correct the Molle loop issue. Thanks to Ernie and Greg, in light of what they were dealing with customer service was great.
The Molle on the Mantis were pretty tight. Comparable to the issue with the Kestrel last year. I like to wear the saddle in and attach my rope bag (SYS hauler) when I get to the tree. Just the way I do things. Tight MOLLEs are therefore a real functional flaw to how I run my system. I'm not walking 2 miles with a loaded SYS hauler flopping around on my caboose.
Ultimately, I ended up selling the Mantis.
Something I started noticing over time was just that I fidgeted a lot more in the Mantis. I felt the "cupping" effect may break into the Mantis over time as I wore the new off, but that did not seem to be the case. It just has a different, flatter shape. I have a rotund rear end. I suppose for the flat butt body type this may be a better fit?
Also, this didn't happen every sit but I had a couple sits in the Mantis where I just could not get comfortable. No matter the tether position, saddle position, whatever, the issue was I felt the upper rear webbing was digging into my lower back/sacrum area. I wear my saddle right around the top of my hips. I realize some have proposed wearing the saddle lower to abate this issue, which I tried, but did not find that comfortable either.
I was kinda stumped as to why this was happening but I never once experienced this pressure point in the Kite. Best I can gather is another design feature of the Kite is that some of that weight may actually be distributed across the bottom row of Molle loops, which are actually sewn in to form a continous link with the leg loops. Not sure? It may just be that the webbing in the upper belt is more substantial? Either way I figure this is distributing weight in that sacral region over more surface area the Mantis is.
In November, when I got into the rut days where I was sitting sunup until 1 PM with the possibility of dark-to-dark, I grabbed the Kite every time because of this. Feeling I needed $200 more than a backup saddle, I sold the Mantis. I think Thethrd has a solid design philosophy and I really hope they put out some new versions that have broader appeal than the ultralight mantis.
One last thing is I mentioned lineman's loops above. But my view on this one kinda changed. The way the Mantis is designed, the lineman loops are interconnected to the bridge. Now when I climb, I often clip my other tether onto my bridge. I just find it a nice easy place to clip it to. The issue here is that I reach down to find my linemans loop in the dark, and I have to fish around for the loops because the bridge of course moves, particularly with weight clipped to it. The Kite linemans are independent of the bridge, so they are always right where you expect them to be.
I bought both figuring I would see which I like more. Here is my review.
I now have six hunts out of the Kite and two from the Mantis. My Mantis has a moderately functional defect in that the MOLLE loops were sewn shut. Appears someone went a little out of order sewing it. I contacted Greg and Ernie telling them to basically take their time dealing with it since I know they are dealing with a lot of bulllcrap already on both ends. As long as that gets resolved eventually I am cool.
It’s better than an unboxing. I will update once I get some all day sits, and late season cold weather gear. The durability obviously takes years to assess. But I feel I am ready to offer up this review by now.
In the end I reviewed two great saddles. The differences between these are minutiae. You cannot go wrong with either one. That said, here are some things I nitpicked. Keep in mind much of this is personal preference.
Weight and packability – Mantis wins here….but maybe not as much as you would think. Most of the difference boils down to the stock bridge material (climbing rope vs. amsteel). That said, I prefer a tubular webbing bridge, so either one I choose I will go that route. Additionally, I have gotten in the habit of wearing my saddle in, so the negligible weight difference is even more irrelevant. The old worn weight debate, right?
Lineman’s loops –Both are placed adequately and stay open nicely. The Mantis design is a smidge more forward and a bit larger, both making it easier to clip into by feel. Mantis wins this category.
Molle loops – A common complaint with the Kestrel was the too-tight MOLLE loops. The Kite loops are just right. My mantis loops as I said are non-functioning at the moment. I do appreciate the two MOLLE rows of the Kite whereas the Mantis has one. I clip my sticks and rope bag to the bottom row, just a little easier to access by feel.
Comfort – Generally, I had to give the edge to the Kite here. It just seems to “cup” my bum better and I don’t find myself adjusting pressure points as much. It’s pretty close though, almost negligible. I also think saddle comfort is a highly individual deal. See also the next two points though.
Bridge reinforcement - This is one thing that the Mantis just nailed. The reinforcement is tubular webbing threaded over the main piece of webbing. The Kite uses a similar setup, but just sewn layers of slightly beefier webbing. There is also a difference in the length of the reinforced portion. The reinforced portion of the Kite is 5 inches. The reinforced portion of the Mantis is 6.5 inches. And here we are balls deep in the minutiae….The Kite has this weird catch point that really, really bugs me. There is a “step down” of a couple millimeters between the reinforced portion and the non-reinforced portion of the bridge attachment. When the bridge snags on that catch point and gives under tension, for a millisecond you feel like you are free falling to your death. Obviously you are not, nonetheless I do not enjoy this surge of adrenaline. I’m not sure that is a sensation you ever become accustomed to. The Mantis, this is never an issue.
Adjustment – The Kite has a ladderlock that adjusts the lower webbing portion of the saddle that bears weight against the lower glutes/upper hamstrings. The Mantis has the same adjustment, but is optional due to the “Micro Adjusters” being removable with a G-hook. I for one don’t really understand the removable adjusters. But whatever. As for actually using the adjusters…I do not use them much in the tree. Just rare occasions to shift pressure points around. I always use them as I wear my saddle hiking in. It tightens everything up against my glutes so I don’t feel the saddle flopping around. The Kite has enough adjustment to do such. My Mantis (size Large) does not have enough adjustment to take up all the slack and floppity flops around. That to me is highly uncomfortable to walk in. To this point, in a very tight race, this ends up being pretty significantly the largest factor in my decision which saddle to stick with. I still may change my mind. Now too, there is a possibility of a fit issue and a Medium Mantis I may not have this issue. I may try one. We will see.
Leg buckles – the Mantis leg buckles are pretty ingenious. There is also a second attachment point that goes around the legs. That does nothing for me though. The Kite leg buckles are ok. They can be loud if you are not careful. It hasn’t been an issue for me, you just go slow and be careful not to clang them together. New Tribe clearly has a different philosophy on the load bearingness of the leg buckles and straps. I am no safety expert but I tend to side with the Tethered philosophy that the leg straps are not life safety weight bearing.
Waist buckles - I prefer the waist buckle on the Kite. It all stems from the way I hike in and use my saddle, in that for one I wear the saddle in. I also use a fixed bridge and put the saddle on like a shirt (as opposed to “stepping in” or putting it on like pants). So the clanky clasp buckle on the Mantis is pointless to me. But it is impressively light if that style is your cup of tea. I don’t love the Kite buckle but it works better for my usage. Bonus, both are interchangeable without sewing anything if you find a buckle you like more and want to take it to mod town without busting out the thread injector.
Bridge material – I don’t like either bridge stock. I would have to be inclined to give the Kite the nod here because bridge length remains adjustable. Amsteel is nifty I guess, but 30” is too long for my bridge. But again, that spliced bridge accounts for most of the Mantis’ weight advantage.
Durability – this one will be interesting to assess over time. The Kite, like I said in the reinforced portions appears a good bit beefier. Aside from the choice of bridge and webbing materials, this is the remaining weight difference. The Kite generally speaking has more/heavier webbing. Is it overbuilt, or will this lead to a more durable product? Over the course of 5-10 years this will be interesting to watch. I tend to think for normal hunter usage this won't be a factor.
Again two great saddles that are extremely similar. The differences are not significant. I think it’s pretty evident already this was a copycat business and that will probably continue. I feel modularity is really the logical next frontier from here. Custom buckles and bridge material/length seem to be the obvious starting place. I would have gladly paid for the ability to choose both.
End of season update 11/29:
Felt I should circle back and update how the rest of the season transpired.
I continued to basically alternate between the two saddles for the couple weeks that followed my original write up.
The last week of October I received another Mantis to exchange to correct the Molle loop issue. Thanks to Ernie and Greg, in light of what they were dealing with customer service was great.
The Molle on the Mantis were pretty tight. Comparable to the issue with the Kestrel last year. I like to wear the saddle in and attach my rope bag (SYS hauler) when I get to the tree. Just the way I do things. Tight MOLLEs are therefore a real functional flaw to how I run my system. I'm not walking 2 miles with a loaded SYS hauler flopping around on my caboose.
Ultimately, I ended up selling the Mantis.
Something I started noticing over time was just that I fidgeted a lot more in the Mantis. I felt the "cupping" effect may break into the Mantis over time as I wore the new off, but that did not seem to be the case. It just has a different, flatter shape. I have a rotund rear end. I suppose for the flat butt body type this may be a better fit?
Also, this didn't happen every sit but I had a couple sits in the Mantis where I just could not get comfortable. No matter the tether position, saddle position, whatever, the issue was I felt the upper rear webbing was digging into my lower back/sacrum area. I wear my saddle right around the top of my hips. I realize some have proposed wearing the saddle lower to abate this issue, which I tried, but did not find that comfortable either.
I was kinda stumped as to why this was happening but I never once experienced this pressure point in the Kite. Best I can gather is another design feature of the Kite is that some of that weight may actually be distributed across the bottom row of Molle loops, which are actually sewn in to form a continous link with the leg loops. Not sure? It may just be that the webbing in the upper belt is more substantial? Either way I figure this is distributing weight in that sacral region over more surface area the Mantis is.
In November, when I got into the rut days where I was sitting sunup until 1 PM with the possibility of dark-to-dark, I grabbed the Kite every time because of this. Feeling I needed $200 more than a backup saddle, I sold the Mantis. I think Thethrd has a solid design philosophy and I really hope they put out some new versions that have broader appeal than the ultralight mantis.
One last thing is I mentioned lineman's loops above. But my view on this one kinda changed. The way the Mantis is designed, the lineman loops are interconnected to the bridge. Now when I climb, I often clip my other tether onto my bridge. I just find it a nice easy place to clip it to. The issue here is that I reach down to find my linemans loop in the dark, and I have to fish around for the loops because the bridge of course moves, particularly with weight clipped to it. The Kite linemans are independent of the bridge, so they are always right where you expect them to be.
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