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Poachers and Penalties: Are Cases Really a Deterrent?

My bosses sisters husband is a habitual offender. Just last season he was charged killing a bear out of season, using a firearm during archery, transporting across state lines, and a couple others I don't remember. He has a chemical imbalance or some kinda screw loose. He has lost his home, vehicles, boats, travel campers, firearms, etc on multiple occasions in multiple states....he's served time, community service, fines, court costs.....and he will do it all again as soon as he's able..... He's not gonna stop till he feels the need to or maybe a lobotomy
 
Here's and interesting listen from Clay Newcomb looking at Poaching:

www.themeateater.com

Ep. 58: Poaching - Our Relationship with the Law | MeatEater Podcasts

This episode of the Bear Grease Podcast will be an exposé on two men in the outdoor industry that you may have heard of. We typically don’t like to air people’s dirty laundry, but we gained access to these hunters and you may know them, maybe even respect them, and their stories might shock you...
www.themeateater.com www.themeateater.com
 
You can say I’m getting old and losing the desire to be a deviant or I’m developing a biblical worldview but either way I’ve become more conservative as I’ve grown older. More conservative across the board with the one major exception being hunting. My opinion on what is moral, ethical, or fair have really changed over the years especially with deer hunting. In that same time frame deer have gone from an almost mythical creature to an abundant resource. Some call them a nuisance. We hunt and kill them for fun. Sure I eat my kill but I kill to fulfill some primal desire. The guy that spends thousands of dollars to kill one deer a year and do so under the guise of putting meat on his table is either lying to him or her self or others. Real meat hunters would shoot one of the deer on the shoulder of the highway you or me would normally drive past on the way to our hunting area. I don’t support road hunting because of safety issues and landowner rights. I don’t night hunt because it’s not much fun to me and doesn’t adequately fulfill my primal desire.
As far as morals or ethics go here are a few things to ponder.
A hunter shooting a deer in the brain with a rifle is considered as unethical. The same hunter with a hand knapped chert arrowhead affixed do a river cane arrow hunting with a handmade bow shooting minute of basketball is considered a models sportsman with tremendous respect for fair chase and their prey, even if they wound as many as they kill.
Me putting a 22 into the back of my sick dogs head is animal cruelty. But deer hunting with a cap and ball revolver is sporting.
We owe it to ourselves and others to manage our resources, wildlife included. In order to do that we definitely need laws, regulations, social pressure etc. I just don’t place much value in others opinions on the ethicality of what method or time of day me violently ending an animals life for my personal joy. I know for the anti hunters and undecided we as hunters should portray a different image in order to protect our sport but we need to admit the truth at least to ourselves. Maybe then we can quit arguing over at what percentage does let off on a compound bow break the ideals of fair chase.
 
Jammintree said:
Here's and interesting listen from Clay Newcomb looking at Poaching:

www.themeateater.com

Ep. 58: Poaching - Our Relationship with the Law | MeatEater Podcasts

This episode of the Bear Grease Podcast will be an exposé on two men in the outdoor industry that you may have heard of. We typically don’t like to air people’s dirty laundry, but we gained access to these hunters and you may know them, maybe even respect them, and their stories might shock you...
www.themeateater.com www.themeateater.com
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Bear Grease has quickly became my favorite podcast each week. Clay consistently produces great content.
 
BTaylor said:
The guy in the article clearly has some level of mental health issue going on. Is a heavy punishment for game violations the appropriate response in this scenario? I would not expect that he has the financial resources to pay a giant fine and throwing him in jail doesnt help that situation. In fact it may cost him his job if he has one and puts him squarely on yours and my payroll. Maybe a better course of action would be something along the lines of mandatory counseling, put a lien on any and all property he does own and require 500-1000 hours of community service working for game and fish or forestry. If he doesnt do the work and counseling he still can lose everything and end up and jail but at least there is an opportunity for a better outcome for everyone. Dont mistake what I posted as me being soft on crime because I would be first in line to vote yes for Saturday noon hanging's on the courthouse lawn for lots of criminals. But this country has a significant mental health problem that needs to be addressed and the answer isnt to to just keep handing out fines and jail time in all cases.
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Mental health issue? I know some folks with mental health issues. They're not pieces of S$#T, No, that's not it. Bad up bringing, at what age do we stop blaming Mommy and Daddy and start taking personal responsibility? This guys in his 50s. More like this guy is a piece of ****, flat out. Game laws are not arbitrary. I've been in Fish and Wildlife my whole career. I like the above penalties. He steals from society make him pay back society. Not jail time, make him earn it and pay it back. Some people live by different rules because they think their entitled, ignorance of the law is no excuse. I look at intent. If this joker had to decide to take a deer or let his children starve that would be one thing but this guy no, that's not what's driving him. He's not just acting out in the woods, he's crapping all over everybody everywhere. Some people just don't think rules apply to them, he's the exception. Ain't it nice to be him.(that's sarcasm) Anybody that's apathetic to this guy in the least would not be my friend.
I'd take that "raskle" out in the swamp put him on his knees and tie him to a stump. Ya'll know the rest.
 
This thread has taken an interesting turn. From a philosophical perspective, a lot of what is being discussed and debated comes down to whether you believe in free will or determinism.

For most on the forum, and in western cultures in general, free will is largely assumed. It does challenge a lot of my preconceived notions, but I actually have recently heard some interesting arguments and information from some philosophers and even neuroscientists that paint a much more complex picture.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
kyler1945 said:
What makes them make their choices?
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So what? Everyone who's been lied to gets to be a liar. Everyone who's been cheated on gets to be a cheater. Everyone who's been beaten gets to become an abuser. If you grow up poor then you get to be a thief. If you grow up rural then the law doesn't apply to you. Excuses are like assh$#les.
 
sweats said:
This thread has taken an interesting turn. From a philosophical perspective, a lot of what is being discussed and debated comes down to whether you believe in free will or determinism.

For most on the forum, and in western cultures in general, free will is largely assumed. It does challenge a lot of my preconceived notions, but I actually have recently heard some interesting arguments and information from some philosophers and even neuroscientists that paint a much more complex picture.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Be careful. You’ll end up a contrarian, and here just to argue with everyone for fun…..

But, know you’ve got some company in taking more than 5 seconds to think about things, and being skeptical of your own mind and everyone else’s.
 
Jammintree said:
I think it’s possible to hold people accountable for their actions AND to have compassion and understanding - offering opportunities for growth and learning from the mistakes that are made. If we are to be a civil society, punishment alone is not an adequate response.
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Sure, the compassion and understanding comes in the form of penalties that are graduated and grow progressively more severe when you don’t “grow and learn” from your last intervention. Frankly, I don’t view a small fine for multiple offenses over time as punishment.
 
2Sloe said:
Sure, the compassion and understanding comes in the form of penalties that are graduated and grow progressively more severe when you don’t “grow and learn” from your last intervention. Frankly, I don’t view a small fine for multiple offenses over time as punishment.
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I agree completely. I’m not suggesting people get off of the hook for getting dealt or dealing themselves a bad hand. What Im advocating is that there also needs to be some attempt at rehabilitation. What happens when the progression of fines and penalties, losses of licenses and access doesn’t work? The next steps are jail time payed for by tax dollars. And what about when that doesn’t work? There is a major hole in the criminal Justice system which generally neglects to address the issues that cause people to end up in the system in the first place.
 
First this is just my opinion no one has to agree. It astonishes me some individuals opinions on this as just let it be or that mental illness is to blame or circumstances dictate. We are all doing what we are now by simple choice. You can chose to change your circumstances. They can choose not to continue to shoot animals after the legal limit or legality. I was born to an abusive alcoholic father that was rarely there. Circumstances say I should be the same, but by simple choice I chose not to be. Yes it's not easy but they are your choices and actions are that of your own. The consequences are yours as well. I don't need excuses to be who I am. I just need to make the best of what I have. They can chose the action. They need to deal with the consequences decided for said action. It may not be fines or jail time. But remove the weapon used to break the law. Take away the license and stick around to enforce it. What's the point in rules if they aren't enforced or consequences for breaking them.
 
Mitchellfarmer1982 said:
First this is just my opinion no one has to agree. It astonishes me some individuals opinions on this as just let it be or that mental illness is to blame or circumstances dictate. We are all doing what we are now by simple choice. You can chose to change your circumstances. They can choose not to continue to shoot animals after the legal limit or legality. I was born to an abusive alcoholic father that was rarely there. Circumstances say I should be the same, but by simple choice I chose not to be. Yes it's not easy but they are your choices and actions are that of your own. The consequences are yours as well. I don't need excuses to be who I am. I just need to make the best of what I have. They can chose the action. They need to deal with the consequences decided for said action. It may not be fines or jail time. But remove the weapon used to break the law. Take away the license and stick around to enforce it. What's the point in rules if they aren't enforced or consequences for breaking them.
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Most of the folks I have known personally that got out of bad situations or otherwise improved their life situation generally all had one thing in common, someone that believed in them and encouraged them. Not saying that is always the case but I also think that one believer often times gets overlooked or downplayed. Could be a friend, family member, teacher or neighbor but somewhere along the way someone planted the seed that they could be better.

There are a lot of facets to mental illness and certainly not saying it is solely to blame. I tend to think in a lot of cases it is the result of multiple other circumstances. But no doubt some folks are just born with it. We deal with crime the same way we deal with illness, treat the symptom rather than the cause. Neither system works worth a flip.

Not saying criminals dont need to be punished, just think there could be better forms that could lead to better long term outcomes for some percentage of folks that get sideways of whats right and legal.
 
This guy might be a criminal for plenty of things. I’ll just never be convinced that killing a deer is a crime against anyone but the king. I’m sure the SH DA’s office will be letting me know why I’m wrong shortly lol.
 
will4554 said:
This guy might be a criminal for plenty of things. I’ll just never be convinced that killing a deer is a crime against anyone but the king. I’m sure the SH DA’s office will be letting me know why I’m wrong shortly lol.
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I agree that illegally killing a deer isn’t the biggest crime in the world. But I also know that deer where completely wiped out in some areas of the country in the past and had to be reintroduced. Over hunting and lack of regulation where the causes for this. In my home state of Oklahoma they were still bringing deer in up to the 1980s to increase the population. People have already forgotten the lessons of the past and think they can do whatever they want without consequence. I would rather history not repeat itself.
 
Kurt said:
Mental health issue? I know some folks with mental health issues. They're not pieces of S$#T, No, that's not it. Bad up bringing, at what age do we stop blaming Mommy and Daddy and start taking personal responsibility? This guys in his 50s. More like this guy is a piece of ****, flat out. Game laws are not arbitrary. I've been in Fish and Wildlife my whole career. I like the above penalties. He steals from society make him pay back society. Not jail time, make him earn it and pay it back. Some people live by different rules because they think their entitled, ignorance of the law is no excuse. I look at intent. If this joker had to decide to take a deer or let his children starve that would be one thing but this guy no, that's not what's driving him. He's not just acting out in the woods, he's crapping all over everybody everywhere. Some people just don't think rules apply to them, he's the exception. Ain't it nice to be him.(that's sarcasm) Anybody that's apathetic to this guy in the least would not be my friend.
I'd take that "raskle" out in the swamp put him on his knees and tie him to a stump. Ya'll know the rest.
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Mental health issues are real, and many more of us have them than we'd like to admit. Not doiagnosed with anything here but I'm a jerk when I'm sad, so actually probably more help with depression than anger. I don't let people see me be sad though, they only see the anger. So there you go, mental illness masquerading as me being a jerk because of a mix of my circumstances and my choices, it's not black and white.

A lot of the time like my very reductive example mental health or lack thereof will contribute to us being jerks, but yes choice and free will is a factor as well. Some people have better self control than others. I have friends who "never get mad", I don't understand what's wrong with them ;) Talking about it this way doesn't make excuses for anyones behavior, but it does open the door to making changes as a society that actually help people and are not just reactive and punitive. You can talk a big game about tying someone to a swamp in the woods but we both know you're full of it, and by your own admission it seems like you're more of a rule follower than you position yourself with that type of statement. Our prisons are full of men that are currently tied to stumps, in my opinion and anecdotal observations of friends and neighbors getting locked up and shot, they might have been able to be steered differently as children/young adults but our society/country failed them and failed their parents. You don't get functioning societies with public school graduation rates in the 20s, buildings that are falling apart, and books that were printed before the students were born. Do the individuals need to be accountable? Of course, but so does the system in which they are raised. There's no options and nothing done to help them when formative, so it's no surprise that their behavior as adults is inappropriate. My family has been on welfare/food stamps in the (thankfully distant) past, I can go down that road and how I personally know how those systems are inadequate as well if you want, this isn't me being some stupid liberal. We can as humans take responsibility for our commonality, the advantages we are lucky to have and the disadvantages we each need to overcome, or we can keep defaulting to jealousy and calling people pieces of ****. One makes the world better the other keeps it the same. I choose to care about people, even if they are pieces of ****.
 
Mitchellfarmer1982 said:
First this is just my opinion no one has to agree. It astonishes me some individuals opinions on this as just let it be or that mental illness is to blame or circumstances dictate. We are all doing what we are now by simple choice. You can chose to change your circumstances. They can choose not to continue to shoot animals after the legal limit or legality. I was born to an abusive alcoholic father that was rarely there. Circumstances say I should be the same, but by simple choice I chose not to be. Yes it's not easy but they are your choices and actions are that of your own. The consequences are yours as well. I don't need excuses to be who I am. I just need to make the best of what I have. They can chose the action. They need to deal with the consequences decided for said action. It may not be fines or jail time. But remove the weapon used to break the law. Take away the license and stick around to enforce it. What's the point in rules if they aren't enforced or consequences for breaking them.
Click to expand...

So you think the fortitude you were born with is a product of your choosing?

You think the intelligence and critical thinking skills and self control to make short term sacrifices for long term well being that enabled you to escape the bad environment are products of your choosing?

You think you have free will to make choices and decisions with full autonomy?

You think you’re the architect of your mind?

You think you’re the author of your Self?

It’s astonishing to me if any of those answers are yes. But I still value you as a human being. And don’t blame you for the circumstances that led to you possessing those very wrong opinions.

Just like I don’t judge the fellow being referenced, nor do I expect he doesn’t have consequences for his actions.

We can be even handed in justice, and have grace and humility doing it. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Your opinions are precisely the reason we won’t escape the rut on this topic. Made worse because you are precisely the person we desperately need to have this right in their head and voice. Someone who’s escaped a crappy upbringing, but has sense enough to recognize how little their “free will” had to do with the ability to do so.
 
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